I apologize for my absence. A couple of the people who work for me have unexpectedly been out (mother-in-law passed away, very sick) and I have been pulling triple duty at work. I'll try to get caught up tonight.
Please don't apologize, Callista, that's completely understandable. Glad to see you back though!
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Hey guys, sorry I've been having my own difficulty with regular posting! As we approach the end of the term, the amount of grading and other bits of take-home work is pretty heavy (in addition to some other paperwork I've had to go get from the government to change schools).
Posting now and, while I know I signed up for once a day, I'll be doing my best to manage that or once every two. Sorry for the inconvenience! I should be clear in two weeks, at least.
End of Summer A, Cawmirth? I work at a state university, and know how intense it is right now for our faculty. Hang in there!
Don't worry, everyone. True, the more posts to read the merrier, but if RL issues arise, their quality alone is high enough to prevent us from regretting the potential lack of quantity.
It was a deliciously written post. Would be a shame to edit or remove it. Let it stand, and we'll run with it being delivered even as Sebi and Thorn were rising.
Okay, I'll be back home shortly and will write up a post. Let's just hope Thorn doesn't start shooting chains out of his chest.
-Posted with Wayfinder
I have to say, I'm a big fan of Cawmirth's gambit. The angle was brilliant. It's unfortunate he has -2 to his bluff, however, and was going up against a consumate diplomat.
I made it a bluff check because he was affecting artless innocence in an attempt to provoke Thorn; his gambit needed Thorn to not realize this for it to work.
FYI, once Sebi/Cawmirth post their wrap-up, I'm going to bring everybody together.
Gah. Posted it in the discussion!
If the party is going to follow Alysandra's advice and curtail it's conversation within the walls of the Iridescent Repose, let me know when you're all done talking and ready to enter the inn.
So. After this first round of talks, I think it's time to update that previous list. For brevity's sake, I've tried to stick to the minimal amount of assumptions necessary to justify the various Councilors' particular behaviors; i.e. to explain them based on what we know as opposed to speculating through the postulation of additional facts (though I'd be glad to have some input in this regard).
- Aurion Thorn, Council Leader. Unenthusiastic loyalist; rapidly losing his grip on the city because of Kinch's actions. His tepidity might be explained by his ability to sniff where the wind is blowing and his unwillingness to openly oppose an opinion which is getting more popular by the hour. Cawmirth suggested that he might be working in concert with Kinch, meaning that they actually share the secessionist goal. I think it's a definite possibility, though one which would need further intelligence to be accepted or discarded. In particular, what would be in for him? After the secession (and likely annexation by Cheliax as a protectorate, I believe), Kinch would probably take his place in a landslide if he wanted to, and even if he didn't, he'd still be a pawn, deprived of any form of political influence (I also believe Alastor's exempt from having its mayor nominated by the People's Council, since Thorn himself is from around there – Phil, correct me if I'm wrong!)
- Forsyth Erekiar, old nobleman, disgraced for skirting his military duties, who votes like Thorn.
- Lysander Poolt, merchant, probable loyalist.
- Aurissa the Blind, Pharasmin bishop, Thorn courted her by paying for the Cathedral, but she has little interest in taking part in the Council's political bickering.
- Ossok Horn, Griffon Maester of the Golden Legion. Most of his men were deployed on the eastern front, and now he only has a skeleton crew under his commands. Afraid of what might happen if word of this reached the populace, has withdrawn into the Erie to avoid showing his weakness.
- Jain Kinch, main voice of the secessionist cause. At first he was just complaining about Andoran's neglect of Alastor, then he fell silent only to step back into the limelight asking for secession as soon as the Iron Keep fell.
Thoughts?
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I fully support this post!
Though, to answer the question of "what's in it for Thorn?" I refer you to Ossok Horn...
"As for Thorn. You no doubt know of his failed bid for national office five years ago. Since then he's curtailed his ambitions. Focused on maintaining his authority in Alastor, which given his shaming was in actual jeopardy. He initiated a number of charities, helped erect the Pharasman cathedral in the lower quarters, and became something of a populist." Again he grows silent, mulling over his thoughts. "Does he have Alastor under his control? Officially, no. It's ruled by the will of the people. In practice? I would have said yes up until recently. He has a private standing army of about five hundred soldiers that he's recruited over the past two years. The city guard report to him. He gives amply to the poor. Yet Kinch's ascension. It's challenged him a way I'd not have thought possible. He's wilted before the man's brimstone and fire. His rebuttal yesterday afternoon was... mild, shall we say."
Thorn clearly is the military power in the city. Having paid for the cathedral, he's also got that on his side. So long as the city is part of Andoran, however, policy must be determined by democratic principles. Kinch threatens Thorn's position by being a populist, but if they secede Thorn holds all the cards, it seems. He controls all the troops and he's banking on Andoran *not* being able to send anything in to stop the secession.
Cawmirth's not there yet, but my own thinking as a player, is that Thorn is somehow behind Kinch getting Infernally influenced into wanting to secede. As soon as they're out of Andoran's reach, he can dispense with the council and use his military might to become a regional hegemon. Or maybe I just have no faith in humanity.
And the reason he's still publicly against secession is that he doesn't want to show his cards and provoke a reaction from Andoran just yet (was that a reference to the Boxer Rebellion?).
Story-wise, it would make for a dramatic turn of events, and I'd be inclined to go with it for this reason alone. IC, the only argument I can concoct against it is essentially ockhamist in nature (which indeed is quite a weak criterion, at least outside the so-called hard sciences), in that it a. implies some degree of conspiracy thinking and b. entails a dangerous plan in order to net a doubtful gain.
To elaborate: situation A (before the fall of the Iron Keep). Thorn is virtually unopposed in his control of Alastor. He has his own private militia, he donates to both the Church and the poor, and he rules the Council. However, he still has to bow to Andoran's authority, the nation his city is part of.
Situation B (after the secession). Despite retaining his guards, Thorn's grip on Alastor is much shakier, unless Kinch is but a puppet of his or he's very good at jumping on his apparent opponent's bandwagon (power transitions usually aren't very gentle with pre-existing rulers). Should Cheliax win the war (which at this point is where his money is), he won't have to answer to Andoran anymore, but he'll be surrounded on all sides by a nation which isn't famous for abiding by the spirit of its agreements (incidentally, this would be Alysandra's main argument against the secessionists: how long do you think Cheliax will tolerate an enclave to exist in anything but name?).
(Also: if he didn't predict Kinch's rise and/or he's now working with him as a peer, confiding in his 500 guards to retain control of the city seems a dangerous gambit against a populace who at that point would be largely under his accomplice's thumb. If he's the mastermind behind everything, why speaking, albeit tepidly, against Kinch? Why playing for time? With the Iron Keep fallen and the bulk of Andoran's troops engaged on the eastern front, wouldn't that have been the most opportune moment to declare independence?)
Most of these perplexities can be easily addressed in-game should we discover this conspiracy has further and deeper ramifications. This is why I'm not dismissing your theory, not even on a strictly personal level – on the contrary, as I said I find it highly intriguing as well as something we should keep in mind at all times in our future dealings with Thorn. As for our course of action, I'd still be partial to investigating Kinch first, mainly because even if Thorn's the actual enemy here a. we might still find some hints of his involvement among Kinch's belongings and b. he'd probably be easier to cope with initially than a guy living in a fortress surrounded by 500 guards.
”Beware of doors: For some reason, placing a door in front of the PCs will make the game grind to a halt while they prepare to open it. Don't ask me why this happens, it just does.”In a PbP game, you want to avoid 'doors', that is, unnecessary delays in the game where your players are spending days wondering who is going to open the door. Hopefully, you are training them to push and act, but... just be aware that doors/columns/funky blue lights/NPCs can all be 'doors', that is, barriers to pushing forward.
When you recognize that your players are afraid of a 'door', give them a push.
I think we might just have hit both a physical and a metaphorical one in the inn's entrance. Metaphorical in that it represents our stance on Thorn: is he just two-faced or actively our foe? As of now, with the information we possess, I'm torn 50/50 between the two possibilities.
My suggestion is that we apply a bit of game theory and follow a course of action which cannot be regretted a posteriori, one that would work in both cases. Both Alysandra's and Callista's Bluff modifiers are high enough that they can reliably deliver simple secret messages, and at least avoid being misunderstood if they try to convey more complicated ones. Sebi is a bit worse off in this regard, but if she sticks to basic concepts she should be fine. Cawmirth might be problematic unless Phil rules the Orator feat applies, in which case his mastery of the written and spoken word would actually make him ridiculously well-suited to this particular game of verbal deceit.
So I'd suggest we walk into the inn and put our hard earned Bluff ranks to work while we discuss our moves. This way
- if Thorn is our foe, we avoid showing our cards and still have him believe we suspect nothing, all the while potentially feeding him some false information
- if not, we avoid slighting him.
In the same spirit, I'd also be for investigating Kinch first, as gathering infos about him would likely benefit us in both scenarios (and if we're lucky, help us establish what Thorn's real game is once and for all).
Let's do the following. *puts on DM's hat*
You guys can conclude your IC conversation here in the discussion thread, and we can rule that this reflects however long is needed to reach such a decision before entering the inn. I'm going to move the group forward, but whatever discussion takes place here will be understood to having taken place before entering the inn.
8 rooms seem overkill, as well as forcing us to spread too thin. 4 rooms, one for each of us plus 1 guard per room? 2 rooms, 2 of us + 2 guards per room? 2 rooms, 1 for us and 1 for the guards?
It could be argued that as head of security, it's your call. I say you pull the trigger in the interest of keeping things moving!
Will do. Just an attempt at having a little OOC poll before posting the result IC, but you're right, if we try to do that for every small decision, gameplay is going to slow down to a crawl.
Uhmm... fighting the urge to pair Cawmirth and Callista... Ok. If we're still of the idea that Callista and Alysandra are going to break into Kinch's house, it'd make sense to have us grouped something like that
Cawmirth +2 guards | Sebi +2 guards | Alysandra + Callista
1 room for each dignitary + adequate protection for each.
Excellent. Also, to make sure we're on the same page, you guys are checking into your rooms, but it's still only just shy of midday. I'm assuming you're just making sure you have your reservations lined up for later this evening, but will continue with your activities this afternoon?
I would say that is a fair assumption, Phil.
So we're off to see other Councilors? Or shall we take a leisurely stroll downtown sniffing the people's mood, perhaps even dropping by the Plynth to witness Kinch's orations first-hand?
I too think we should take a look at Kinch.
Fourthed.
May I suggest that the exact course of your next action be deliberated here? You need merely tell me who is going where, and I will provide the next post so as to move things along.
I believe we're in agreement to take a walk through the city and stop by the Plynth to finally understand what we're up against.
Alysandra would probably leave her small platoon behind to better blend with the populace, as well as altogether eschewing most of the pomp associated with their mission. Better yet, she would suggest some kind of disguise to prevent them from standing out as an official Andoren delegation.
I'm definitely down with that. Getting the measure of a potential enemy without calling undue attention to ourselves.
Edit: With her disguise kit, Callista currently has a +19 to disguise, if we opt for the simple route.
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Is everyone OK with skipping directly to the evening? Unless anything relevant occurs, of course. I understand the plan is for Sebi and Alysandra to go dine with Thorn, and Callista and Cawmirth to infiltrate Kinch's house?
I'm good for skipping to evening, with a caveat that Cawmirth's going shopping for knick-knacks to replace that braille bracelet (this'd be the chance for others to grab one, too, if they wanted).
Since planning is the part that just makes the DM wait, I guess it could be best to get that over with in short here.
Cawmirth's of the view that, while there's a chance they could break in and find something incriminating, there's nothing to outwardly suggest Kinch is some kind of demon-afflicted psychopath. He's just a pissed off guy who feels like his country's given him the short end of the stick. So, the bird man's in favor of approaching Kinch and pretty much laying out that they were sent to deal with the problems in the Vale and no one, NO ONE, would be a better spokesperson to the Supreme Elect himself about how neglected and abused Alastor's been than Kinch.
Of course, the plan relies on him being somewhat tractable, but Cawmirth prefers to lean on his old skill-set as something of a last resort. Though, given that Callista can cast invisibility, the option of Mr. Kinch seemingly only receiving one visitor is totally there...
Alysandra's view of Kinch is that he's either a Chamberlain, at best, or a Quisling, at worst. As bad as Alastor had it, she's still convinced that being far from the frontlines has shielded it from the worst of the war, and that trying to secede as soon as it came knocking on its doors is tantamount to treason. Still, if he can be persuaded through a carrot-and-stick approach, she's pragmatical enough to see the the value of having him as an ally. Beggars can't be choosers, after all.
Though this is just conjecturing, and few precious plans manage to survive contact with the enemy (not to mention I've already been proved wrong in my suspicions about Horn). This is why the double-pronged approach you suggested seems very smart to me. Hopefully, Callista's detect lies will help us understand where Kinch stands once and for all.
So wait. Is the new plan to approach Kinch directly? How do you intend to effect that encounter?
Showing up at his bakery or just rolling a couple of Diplo checks to discern his whereabouts?
Though I'd probably suggest a compromise between the two methods: Callista uses her Bluff and Disguise modifiers to approach him under false pretenses (a supporter? a Chelaxian agent? some kind of mercantile envoy interested in establishing good relations with the soon-to-be free republic of Alastor?) while Cawmirth puts his Perception and Stealth ranks to good use (invisibility can be bestowed by touch).
I understand Cawmirth would like to talk to Kinch personally, unfortunately the way he's built would leave a frank and honest approach as the only viable option... which I consider hazardous. However altruistic his motivations may be, he still plays the enemy's part in the context of our little play, and the absence of proof of Chelaxian involvement is not the proof of absence.
If after our little preliminary probing he turns out clean and well-meaning, I'd say we go talk to him and try to get him on our side.
Is this going to be a Callista/Cawmirth mission while Lavinia and Sebi go to dinner with Thorn? Kinch has to step down from his podium sometime, but I assume that won't be until around dusk.
I'm down for either method. Honestly, whichever method would keep the most players involved is what I would vote for.
^ that.
Generally speaking, I'm against repeatedly splitting the party, but in such a dialogue-heavy campaign I feel it might actually help with the pacing. Having two parallel scenes going on streamlines what would otherwise be 4 PCs speaking in unison IMHO.
As for what to do until dusk... if we don't want to take advantage of Kinch's absence to infiltrate his house, I honestly don't know. That's why I suggested skipping to the next scene. We might go pay a visit to the other Councilors, but I doubt there's any more information that can be gathered that way. Alysandra would probably investigate Kinch on her own even without telling the others, in a national-security-agencies-keeping-tabs-on-radical-politicians sort of way, but I'll refrain to go on solo missions unless there are other scenes for the others to take part in.
So:
You're going to kill time until dusk, and then Sebi/Alysandra are going to Thorn's dinner, and Cawmirth/Callista are going to approach Kinch.
Correct?
Correct.
Correct, seconded.
Bringing it to the Discussion thread for brevity's sake and because... well... the party's already been split. As the one who originally suggested the envoy ploy, I admit it was just one of the first things that came to my mind, and I picked the mercantile thing because it seemed more 'neutral' as well as better suiting Callista's background. I'd still think it would make more sense for such a delegation to visit Kinch rather than the likes of Poolt though. From a purely external perspective, the latter is just Old Guard, while the former is likely to come out as the strong man in the new regime. And a savvy merchant knows that being a rising star's early supporter is a gambit that pays enormous dividends should the power switch eventually take place.
I'd be also cautious about over-promising, unless we're playing a very short-term game here. Unless the Iron Keep is once again secured, all the heartfelt pleads in Golarion won't prevent war from coming to Alastor, a city that, despite all protests, has always had it comparatively easy until now (from a soldier's POV, at least). Things are likely to get worse sooner than they get better - though not as bad as if they surrender to Cheliax, which is the main point of us being here.
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Those are all quite good points as to why a merchant would want to visit Kinch. As well, just because she's visiting Kinch doesn't mean she can't visit Poolt later, so I think you've got those well addressed.
However, I would just like to point out that lies tend to be one of those things one easily gets tripped up in. Unless Callista has some kind of superlative disguise ability she'll be pulling out for the meeting with Kinch, it means he'd know her as a Chelaxian merchant while Horn knows her as an Andoran envoy. Which is fine, but, it'd mean down the road if she goes to a council meeting where Horn and Kinch are both present, it'd quickly become apparent she lied to somebody about who she is. While the whole matter could be avoided by her simply avoiding places that have both Horn and Kinch, it seems likely to kind of sideline her when it comes to the whole council being around. A small concern.
I agree over-promising is something we want to avoid. In terms of what Cawmirth's thinking of offering, maybe you can let me know if anything looks problematic?
- An immensely long apology, offered from a representative of the government. While words are just words, a big part of Kinch's speech was about shame on the government, so it's at least appropriate for Cawmirth to say, "You're absolutely right. We've been terrible about this.
- Mention of the soldiers being sent back, with a note that they weren't requisitioned, but volunteered by Thorn. It's an opportunity for a sense motive to see if this is genuinely surprising for Kinch or not.
- An opportunity to speak to the People's Council. This might be the over-promise you were alluding to, since the Undersecretary didn't specifically include this in explicit support given, but I think if we sent a letter back saying, "The guy who has been arguing for his city to secede has agreed to come lay out his grievances to the council," I feel like us having her official writ for the mission would at least have her try to arrange it. Maybe not, but at least it's something that wouldn't cost her any money or soldiers while it buys time.
Those are all quite good points as to why a merchant would want to visit Kinch. As well, just because she's visiting Kinch doesn't mean she can't visit Poolt later, so I think you've got those well addressed.
Exactly. The angle I was thinking about goes a bit like 'A bunch of my colleagues are very concerned about the preservations of Alastor's mercantile lifeblood after severing your ties with Andoran. We would be happy to guarantee a steady influx of goods during this transition in exchange for a nominal tax deduction in our future business dealings with you as well as a temporary exclusivity agreement etc. etc.'...
However, I would just like to point out that lies tend to be one of those things one easily gets tripped up in. Unless Callista has some kind of superlative disguise ability she'll be pulling out for the meeting with Kinch, it means he'd know her as a Chelaxian merchant while Horn knows her as an Andoran envoy. Which is fine, but, it'd mean down the road if she goes to a council meeting where Horn and Kinch are both present, it'd quickly become apparent she lied to somebody about who she is. While the whole matter could be avoided by her simply avoiding places that have both Horn and Kinch, it seems likely to kind of sideline her when it comes to the whole council being around. A small concern.
Agreed. Piling lies upon lies is a sure way to see the whole building crumble sooner or later. In such a situation, Alysandra would probably tell Horn beforehand, explaining the situation. That still wouldn't explain the presence of a Westcrown merchant at a confidential Council meeting, though. Indeed, I was originally thinking about putting Callista's +17 Disguise modifier to good use, potentially boosted by a set of papers lending credibility to her disguise – which Cawmirth, if willing, would have had no trouble forging in the course of this increasingly long afternoon (1d4 minutes per page, by the skill description).
I agree over-promising is something we want to avoid. In terms of what Cawmirth's thinking of offering, maybe you can let me know if anything looks problematic?
- An immensely long apology, offered from a representative of the government. While words are just words, a big part of Kinch's speech was about shame on the government, so it's at least appropriate for Cawmirth to say, "You're absolutely right. We've been terrible about this."
- Mention of the soldiers being sent back, with a note that they weren't requisitioned, but volunteered by Thorn. It's an opportunity for a sense motive to see if this is genuinely surprising for Kinch or not.
- An opportunity to speak to the People's Council. This might be the over-promise you were alluding to, since the Undersecretary didn't specifically include this in explicit support given, but I think if we sent a letter back saying, "The guy who has been arguing for his city to secede has agreed to come lay out his grievances to the council," I feel like us having her official writ for the mission would at least have her try to arrange it. Maybe not, but at least it's something that wouldn't cost her any money or soldiers while it buys time.
They all actually sound very sensible, to me at least. Truly, the only thing we can't promise is that this war has any chance to end before it reaches the Windburn Vale – other than that, whatever it takes to placate Kinch's righteous ire is fair game. The last point could actually be a diplomatic masterpiece if it could be accomplished within the tight time schedule before Cheliax invades, as it would remove Kinch from Alastor entirely for quite a bit of time. I feel Alysandra could quite easily sell this angle to the Undersecretary.
Checking in with the group here:
How are things going? I'm noticing a big slowdown in posting speed, but I'm not sure that's a problem. We could be simply be hitting our long term optimum posting pace. Or, conversely, you guys could be getting a little burned out or losing interest.
So can you guys chime in and give me a little feedback? Is everything good, or are there any concerns you'd like to voice? Obviously there are no wrong answers, and frankness is appreciated above all else.
I personally feel we're doing well, if not for the fact that the posts' length makes up for their rarefaction – if we count by words per day rather than posts per day, I bet we're still one of the strongest going PbPs.
Still, about our recent relative decline in post frequency... I'd say the first obvious factor to take into consideration (at least as far as I'm concerned) is that summer does tend to slow down things a little (indeed, I feel this might be the right place to disclose I'll be backpacking around the Balkans during the two weeks from 27/07 to 09/08 and my Internet reception will be spotty at best – as usual, feel free to GMPC me as needed).
Secondly, it might be that we're now starting to get acquainted with the sandbox you've laid in front of us. Railroading is a sure telltale of a bad GM, but if there's one good thing that can be said of it is that it helps things proceed smoothly, at least in a PbP. Conversely, in a sandbox much time is spent pondering options, like in our present situation when we're basically suspecting every relevant NPC to be a Chelaxian agent. This makes us proceed cautiously, and wait for everyone to post before rushing ahead to avoid doing something reckless (for instance, I'm now cursing myself for not having let Callista accompany Sebi, since she's the only PC wise enough to pierce Thorn's bluffs. Or at least having asked her to cast heroism on Alysandra!).
Other than that, I'd like to once again stress that I have absolutely no complaints at all about this campaign; on the contrary, everyone's posts have consistently been a pleasure to read!
Phil, you are doing a great job with the world you've built. My slowdown has everything to do with the system conversion we are going through at work, and the fact that my kids are out of school for summer (and therefore have later bedtimes...cutting down on my play time. ;) ).
They start back to school in a couple of weeks, and our conversion should really be humming around that point, so I expect to stay at my current post rate for the next few weeks, then be able to increase as things settle back down.
I am definitely still interested, and am enjoying the NPC interaction and second-guessing.
Still very much enjoying the campaign on my end. Just finished up a story that kind of took the wind out of me, and it bled over into my posts. Sorry they've been a bit erratic lately. I'm interested in where this dinner and the meeting with Kinch will take the party, but I also think that recklessness has its place in a story. Especially for Sebi's character, she can sometimes be a little...uneven, and I expect it may get her into trouble in the future.