So based on the opening post, Lucatiel has met everyone at some point and witnessed their abilities first hand? I am guessing through defense of the town at some point by Monsters or bandits or monstrous bandits?
@Rribak: Lucatiel makes a great point. If something you want can be expressed in terms of Paizo content, I'd like you to consider that first.
@Lucatiel and Vizper: To integrate Vizper's ideas about demons and devils, I think that a large part of Thalassa's might relied on arcane magic and using demons and devils. Since early Eventyr defined itself largely in opposition to Thalassa, mages would have been pretty ruthlessly hunted down — but it's been a hundred years. Let's say that that Eventyrian sentiment has evolved from magic as the devil (literally) to a social faux pas that nets you scared or offended glances.
A small order of 'new mages' would be trying to collect fragments of lore that were destroyed a hundred years ago, and catalog what arcane monuments and relics the Thalassans left. The conjurer in Moorside would be one of this order. It's unlikely a mage wouldn't recognize demonic corruption, so let's say he hasn't returned in ten years on some journey.
@Lucatiel : Yes; we should discuss how everyone knows each other. From my understanding, Geoffrey, Lucatiel, and Vizper are townies; Lucatiel and Kravar know each other.
To Everyone: Initial plot hook has been posted. We can discuss it and roll some Knowledge checks here, or do some initial roleplaying in Gameplay. We shouldn't push the story too far. I'm going to get the Plot Twist Cards tonight from my local game store, so you can expect a Google Spreadsheets and your own cards sometime tomorrow. Any thoughts or criticisms?
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I have one, i was thinking that Vizper killed him in his sleep the day she was corrupted, but your Idea is pretty good, because I'm pretty sure a high level conjurer would be harder to kill than Vizper can deal with.
Edit: oh, Since Visper is Evil, i was thinking that she didn't realy bother to meet the others in the group. she may have fought with them before (not against), but if she did she didn't care to introduce herself... she sees others as a burden to her "superior power". At least most of the time :P
@Vizper: As much as I enjoy evil characters, I do have basic expectations that player characters should work with the party and within the premises of a non-evil society. If the other players don't want to adventure with Vizper Darkbrood the character, I will ask you to create a different character. I think this also has a basis in lore; after all, an intelligent demon empowered you for a purpose, and you can't fulfill that purpose if you blow your opportunities before you can find your true potential.
With that in mind, do you really want to have murdered someone in a small, insular hamlet, or act overtly evil at this point in time? If you didn't meet the others in the group, who told you to head to Nearheath Hall? If the answer is no, I'll give you the Once in a Lifetime™ opportunity to ignore your Gameplay post through retconjuration.
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That was a personal joke on vizper's part, she has never murdered anyone yet... at least innocent people... monsters perhaps. It's just a joke!
As for not meeting any of them.. she probably has, she just didn't bother to remember their names.
I am evil, but that doesn't mean I go off and do as I please, once again, don't take any talk about killing seriously, Vizper is just as likely to jump off a building as she is to do that!
So, she thinks like this, and you may at times see where she questions herself every now and then... before suddenly pushing that to the side. My expectations for her are to question herself more and more until she finally desides what she is thinking is not herself.
If she dies prematurely, I'll be happy to make a new character, I never run out of ideas! But know that she is just increasingly rude right now.
@Rribak: Lucatiel makes a great point. If something you want can be expressed in terms of Paizo content, I'd like you to consider that first.
I hear you, and I have no problem if the answer is no.
Normally you would do what I am suggesting with traits, but we only get one trait for this game.
Instead of homebrewing the class to that extent, why not play a Slayer. Its the ranger/rogue hybrid which is what you seem to be building. Then take either Devotee of the Green or Know the Land for Knowledge (Nature) and Spirit Guide for Knowledge (Religion).
A slayer is really not what I am looking for. There are a few reasons:
1. I already play a slayer in another game. He's great but is totally different than what I envision here.
2. Slayer does not have the DEX-based advantages that the Unchained Rogue does. Playing a DEX melee slayer means you have to burn your first feat on Weapon Finesse and you will never get DEX-to-damage. So a slayer with a STR of 8 doesn't work that well. You also don't get TWF this way until 2nd level.
3. Really all I am doing is trying to make my starting skills fit my background. A few "woodsy" skills does not a Ranger make. And Slayer only has one of the skills (Survival) in class; it does not have Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion).
4. Slayers are primarily about Bonus Combat Feats. My experience with playing a TWF slayer is that you don't use studied target that much because it reduces your attacks to a standard action that round, and sneak attack is nice but not key. None of the Ranger Combat styles really work for what I am doing; Rribak will gradually develop a more Zen kind of thing (what the Grippli of the H'rop-Shtavor call the "Ghost Way") and will get a bit Monk-ish later on.
@ Vizper:
I am evil, but that doesn't mean I go off and do as I please, once again, don't take any talk about killing seriously, Vizper is just as likely to jump off a building as she is to do that!
You have already said that you know the difference between evil and stupid, and that you are not stupid. But maybe it would make things easier if you expressed what her alignment means to Vizper. What are her values?
Is she "possessed?" If so, how does the internal struggle manifest?
@ Everyone:
How does Rribak know you?
Rribak showed up in town about 3 months ago, using a small log as a raft, paddling with his feet down the river.
Clearly he was grieving and something bad had happened to him, though whether Rribak gave you the details would depend on how close you got to him. The town itself is relatively welcoming of grippli so they are not racist towards Rribak, but Rribak is relatively antisocial so he hasn't made many friends in town.
Rribak hates the idea of owing someone favors and as a result doesn't like to take charity. Despite his obviously bedraggled state he insists on paying his own way, even though he has little to offer. So he makes his way by fishing and gathering food in the wild and trading it for what he needs.
He is an outstanding swimmer and anyone who needed something done involving the river would be well advised to seek his help. He knows the swamps pretty well and might be seen as a potential guide. He also is very handy with daggers though I don't imagine there would be too much cause to use them in town.
Geoffrey's family may have treated Rribak's injuries. Geoffrey himself might have talk to him about his settlement. There aren't many outsiders in the Moorside, so everything is interesting to Geoffrey.
Actually, that's how Geoffrey may know everyone - healing. They are healers after all. They have to know most of the locals.
And one more question. Do we know how far from Moorside is Forest haven?
Kravar knows something about healing and anatomy as well - maybe he offered to share knowledge with the Tervens? He could have worked with them for a time, as an assistant of sorts.
They also may have shared techniques and recipes.
@Rribak: 3.5's Unearthed Arcana used to have a wilderness rogue that exchanged the following skills if the DM is okay with that.
Class skills: Remove the following rogue class skills from the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script (Linguistics), Forgery (Linguistics), and Gather Information (Diplomacy).
Add the following skills to the wilderness rogue's class skill list: Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival.
Honestly it seems like there is a conflict of interest here. You want to play a knife master rogue but the backstory you came up with doesn't suggest rogue. Your trying to marry conflicting ideas. The key features that jump out at me from your backstory are faith and transportation. Your character is part of a devout tribe that returns the bodies of other grippli to their sacred home. When not doing that you trade and offer rides. You've been on a boat your whole life. I don't think rogue is best for that. Ranger, cleric, druid, or hunter seem like the best choices.
@Vizper: I still don't get the character. If demons are supposed to be subtle manipulators why is it that succubus made her evil or at least amplified her desire for power to the point of ignoring societal norms. That's not subtle. Neither is possession. If her true alignment is Neutral then stick with that. Sprinkle some cryptic evil thoughts in there that she isn't sure were actually her's. Maybe add a an evil action in times of stress but she doesn't remember doing it.
Honestly it seems like there is a conflict of interest here. You want to play a knife master rogue but the backstory you came up with doesn't suggest rogue.
I think rogue is a pretty good fit, personally. Not everything needs to be reflected by class, not every priest is a cleric, etc. etc.
Yeah, I have to agree with Burnscar here. Class does not indicate background. Each class can come from just about any background. There are even urban barbarians.
Part of the concept is being adapted from a rogue I played in a previous campaign, though he was not a grippli. The religious concept is based on Pharasma, and her sacred weapon is the dagger. There is no reason a non-divine caster cannot be religious. I like the idea of playing a character who is devout but not a divine caster.
The grippli as described are described in this game as tribal. So if I want to play a grippli I kind of have to go with that.
Extra Traits is a feat which might make sense, for the extra class skills.
Yeah... can't afford it though. Until we get to "Epic" levels you only get 3 feats. I need all of them to get to be where I want at level 6.
TWF would have to wait for level 2, with the Combat Trick talent, but it only gives +2 to hit honestly, so since you'll pretty much only TWF when flanking, it just means that your sneak attacks happen at +3/+3 instead of +5/+5.
Actually it would be +3/-3. The off-hand attack is made at -8 when you don't have TWF.
The slayer is a cool class overall, but it doesn't get access to ninja tricks which are a part of how the character will develop starting at level 4. Slayer would give me a second iterative attack at level 6, which might make up for the drop in damage, but as it stands changing this character to a slayer would mean nearly zero damage in combat until level 3, and then I would still be way behind the curve.
I figure a small nimble race like the grippli would teach themselves how to fight in a way that doesn't depend on strength. So Rogue is a good fit for melee grippli.
Geoffrey's family may have treated Rribak's injuries. Geoffrey himself might have talk to him about his settlement. There aren't many outsiders in the Moorside, so everything is interesting to Geoffrey.
That works for me.
In his mind this would place Rribak in your debt. Rribak is very conscious of the concept of debt and would want to repay any help given.
James will continue to answer any questions. I'm going to flesh out the trading post in more detail, as well as create a rough hex map of our party's surroundings.
A general announcement: FanExpo is happening in Toronto this weekend, so I will not be able to post regularly until Monday.
@Rribak: I can understand not wanting to change classes; sometimes, the characters we want to play function off of specific character options. But this can come with discrepancies, and we should accept that too. Though the offer I previously made still stands, the answer to switching Knowledge (dungeoneering) for (religion) will be no.
If having Knowledge (religion) as a class skill is as important as armor expert, you should change your trait. There's no reason a character without the former can't be religious either.
I don't want to sound harsh or cramp your style. Since we have first-party, third-party, and homebrew content, however, I'd prefer not to use the last more than necessary. Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (religion) are two of the more important or 'big' Knowledge skills, and Survival will come up more often than not in a campaign about exploration and travel. Please understand why I'd rather not give you all three as class skills when you're playing a streamlined and effective rogue without some additional commitment on your part.
@Rribak: .... the answer to switching Knowledge (dungeoneering) for (religion) will be no.
If having Knowledge (religion) as a class skill is as important as armor expert, you should change your trait. There's no reason a character without the former can't be religious either.
As I have already said, it's not a big deal to me if the answer is no.
I have to put points into Knowledge (Religion) to qualify for my third level feat, so I thought I would see if I could get a bit of oomph there. But overall it doesn't matter a whole lot.
Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (religion) are two of the more important or 'big' Knowledge skills,
In my mind Knowledge (nature) is the big one, and you already gave me that, so overall I'm happy. Religion only gives information about one creature type, and Kravar seems to have it in class, so it's not a big priority. The Hr'op-Shtavor may hate undead, but perhaps they don't encounter them enough to know a lot about them.
... without some additional commitment on your part.
What does that mean? Is there something else you want me to do?
@ Kravar:
Grippli
In their ancient oral traditions, grippli elders sing of a time when shining humans of bronze and gold drove the grippli into the marshes that they now call home. There, the grippli encountered the aven (tengu) — and the Covenant of Mere and Mire has bound their fates together since. From atop their mountain perches, aven bring their crops to the grippli in exchange for the bountiful fish in the wetlands. When danger looms, aven and grippli defend their territory together.
Could it be possible that Rribak and Kravar met when they were young? Rribak's tribe act as traders - if the Aven trade with the Grippli then he might have had contact with the Aven before.
I think he meant the trait?
The DM's last post gave me an idea for Vizper and Lucatiel's connection. I think they would have been childhood friends. But because of their respective training, they didn't see each other for a long time. All Luca knew was that Vizper had grown fairly strong as a mage (no one knows how to classify her yet) and had changed. She is not sure how to deal with the new version yet.
Yep, still drawing a blank on Rribak.
@ Kravar:
I think it's more likely that Kravar, knowing about the grippli, but never having met any, sought out Ribrak sometime during the last three months, and bugged him with questions about grippli life.
Rribak would probably have dealt with Aven before and so wouldn't have had a problem with that.
I had worked into my character concept that the grippli do have a semi-mystical combat technique called the "Ghost Way." It mainly deals with DEX-based fighting and avoiding getting hit. At 6th level Rribak will have Crane Style.
So it is possible that after meeting Kravar, the two became sparring partners.
Without something like that it is unlikely that too many people in town would know that Rribak could fight, since he would not be the type to go around picking fights.
@ Lucatiel:
Yep, still drawing a blank on Rribak.
As a stranger in town it would be conceivable that your father might have asked you to keep an eye on Rribak. Possibly you felt it was your duty to find out a bit more about him and you did this by trying to befriend him. Rribak might have seen through that but would still have cooperated on the basis that he wants the people in town to know that he isn't dangerous.
Then you might have found Rribak and Kravar sparring. That might have formed an interest. Maybe Lucatiel would even want to participate.
@ Vizper:
Overall I think Vizper might freak Rribak out.
But after recovering from his ordeal (with the help of Geoffrey), he might have approached Vizper and her teacher, hoping to use magic to find out if any of his friends survived and where they might be. The fact that you are a tiefling might have reinforced your "magical" image to him.
In the process he would have hat to explain to you or your master what happened to him before he arrived that caused him to be "stranded" in Moorside.
It's unlikely that you or your magic teacher could have helped much, but Rribak isn't that sophisticated and wouldn't have known that.
@ Kenneth GM:
Would it be possible for you to put the info from the original thread about the campaign world and the town onto the campaign page, maybe in spoiler tags? The thread they are in is not linked and it's a bit hard to track down.
You don't really need the list of characters there as there is a characters tab.
A whole week without a post and without a notice from GM, that's definitely not a good sign for a game.
A whole week without a post and without a notice from GM, that's definitely not a good sign for a game.
I hope that's not it.
If I had a dollar for every online pbp on this forum that I was in which died before getting rolling... well, I would have $3 so far. I'm hoping not to go to $4...
Just sent the GM a PM. We'll see.
If he does drop the game, I won't be surprised too much. New GM (at least on the forum), homebrew world, 3rd party.
If he does drop the game, I won't be surprised too much. New GM (at least on the forum), homebrew world, 3rd party.
Yeah, no response so far.
PM me if he comes back. I am switching this to in active.