I know it still provokes attack of opportunity, which is kinda weird, since the rules also state this: A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.
@Saeri: I hate splitting the party. Sorry for suggesting it. My idea was that we would all go to the same inn, but split off to different parts of the room, though obviously it didn't quite work out th
Minor update: The Stellaris content patch and civ 6 launch somehow made all my time disappear today. Sorry guys! I'll get a post up tomorrow : )
It seems as if we hit a sore spot somewhere!
I'll get a post up tonight : )
They don't know from magic. So far as it seems to the working boys & girls and their proprietor, Kas is trying to curse them or impose some kind of magical slavery on their minds. They're happy that he didn't use a fireball, but that just raises more questions about what he has done. It's like if some random person on the street ran up and injected you with something.
Of course they don't know it's him exactly. They just know something really weird happened and it's probably magic. Or a ghost. Either way it wasn't there until this band of adventuring riffraff came in. :)
I know it still provokes attack of opportunity, which is kinda weird, since the rules also state this: A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally.
@Saeri: I hate splitting the party. Sorry for suggesting it. My idea was that we would all go to the same inn, but split off to different parts of the room, though obviously it didn't quite work out th
The AoO comes from having to let down your guard to concentrate enough to make the effect happen.
I told you that somebody wouldn't see the true value of something. XD But yeah, it's always best to be careful about casting around commoners.
Minor update: The Stellaris content patch and civ 6 launch somehow made all my time disappear today. Sorry guys! I'll get a post up tomorrow : )
Stellaris any good? Been eye-ing it for a while, but had no feedback from trustworthy sources yet-
@Stellaris - If you are into those sort of games, it's really nice : )
But it can be quite slow-moving at times and given that is it in real-time instead of turn based means it can sometimes be hard to skip ahead in bigger chunks as you are bound to miss something!
Though on the other hand, the always running part makes it one of the better 4x games for multiplayer. As long as you can find people with giant gaps in their schedule : P
Na, no chance of multiplayer for me - I did like most Paradox Grand Strategy Games though - so the concept is not new to me. And SoaSE was splendid fun.
Then again, no reason to rush just because there's a weekend sale, right? Christmas Sale will come around soon enough.
Thanks a lot for letting me know!
Here's hoping this doesn't blow up in our faces. I'm improvising, with the idea that if this is one of our Waterdeep people, even if Chaïa can't know that everyone's about to be kicked out of the brothel, we probably don't want to just hand him over to their people before we learn what we can from him. If he is one of the three we're looking for, hopefully (1) his associates are classier people, and (2) he has enough of a sense of humour that he won't resent getting played when Chaïa makes it clear that she's not actually a courtesan, as soon as she gets as much information out of him as she can.
Given how nervous the pander is getting, maybe the folks inside could just leave their card, so to speak? He may not want us around now, but if folks are willing to accept an invitation at a later date... I mean, who are these people that are just hiring the place outright? Oh dear, this is all so sordid, isn't it?
Uhm, I'm still not perfectly clear if we are getting thrown out because they DID hire the place.
They seemed perfectly willing to service us before Kasy started pulling magic on them. The fact the whole place is rented out is not something that the host would easily forget, and surely, his girls would not seem sleepy and un-ready for customers, but rather already be ready for the occasion.
I rather think it would be interesting to wait for the interaction between the host and the guy hitting on Chaia and Saeri outside. If they(that guy wanting to pass on his seed and/or any friends of him) are turned down as well, with the same excuse(because they can't really change their story while we're still there), we may actually go have a drink in some tavern with them and complain about how awful we've been treated.
Uh, the whole reason I did pull out magic was because we were thrown out. Here is the order things happened in:
Kasyomnite is carefully studying the girls to see how they react to the message as he points to them discretely.
The first woman Kas whispered to turned seductively toward the sound...and found no one there. Her expression went momentarily flat, but she quickly resumed smiling. The second did much the same, then exchanged a brief look with with the other.
The man slipped smoothly between the girls, boys, and the company.
"My Lords and Ladies, I'm very sorry but I've just remembered we are engaged this morning. Some patrons of most, erm, extensive appetites will soon arrive and they cherish their privacy. I must ask you to leave," he said, setting the coins he had gathered earlier back on the table.
Kasyomnite nudges Lucrecia and motions for her to bend down so he can whisper in her ear. "If we could talk to them while they are enjoying themselves, it might give us information they otherwise wouldn't share."
He then looks at their host and speaks out loud. "Extensive appetites you say? What if what they want is not amongst the things you can provide?" He chants a quick cantrip and blue dots of light starts dancing over his clothes in a marvelous display. "I've always drawn more satisfaction from pleasing than being pleased in turn. Why don't you let me remain here and maybe both they and us can have some fun? You'll still get your pay of course."
[dice=Diplomacy with enhanced diplomacy]1d20+9+2
Uh, the whole reason I did pull out magic was because we were thrown out. Here is the order things happened in:
Kasyomnite is carefully studying the girls to see how they react to the message as he points to them discretely.
The first woman Kas whispered to turned seductively toward the sound...and found no one there. Her expression went momentarily flat, but she quickly resumed smiling. The second did much the same, then exchanged a brief look with with the other.
The man slipped smoothly between the girls, boys, and the company.
"My Lords and Ladies, I'm very sorry but I've just remembered we are engaged this morning. Some patrons of most, erm, extensive appetites will soon arrive and they cherish their privacy. I must ask you to leave," he said, setting the coins he had gathered earlier back on the table.
Message is magical. The girls were weirded out.
All it takes is for the host to have Detect Magic and see you glow like a light-bulb with 20 static Message-Spells running. Or maybe they have a message-like spell running among themselves so they could call for help if a customer becomes rough, and told their boss what was happening.*shrug*
Until you started whispering, they were happy to try and serve, and the woman turned seductively, then found there was no one. Maybe they gave the man a sign.
Then he came and tells us we need to leave, after just having summoned 2 parades of companions for us to choose from.
I am not certain, I simply assumed that such places would have pretty strict regulations against using magic on the people working there *shrug* But my impression may have been all wrong, and I misread what happened.
Maybe Samnell can clarify?
Why would he clarify? There is ambiguity in real world reactions, why wouldn't it be that way in the game? So we might never know why they did react that way now.
Why would he clarify? There is ambiguity in real world reactions, why wouldn't it be that way in the game? So we might never know why they did react that way now.
There is ambiguity, of course, and it could take a Sense Motive/Hunch Check to read his intent.
I am, however, asking for clarification regarding the sequence of events.
The way I interpreted it was :
- Guy greets us
- Guy introduces diverse companions to us, summoning them to present them
- Guy suddenly wants to get rid of us with a claim that does not seem to fit the first 2 points very well
So there seems to be something fishy, even without a Sense Motive.
And here, the important detail would be timing(and that very well can be clarified): Could he have decided to get rid of us in response to your actions?
If so, stalling is worthwhile, because if it's an empty excuse, Mr. Auric will need to be told the same story.
Or did he act seemingly without a prompt, and wants to get rid of us for some other reason?(possibly even telling the truth, but that would make him a very bad businessman).
But yeah, I'll go ahead and roll a Sense Motive to see if I suspect anything, or the situation is just fishy to Janus courtesy of the 180° the guy did mid-negotiations.
Sense motive is not Kasyomnite's strong suit. Sorry for ruining the fun for you :p.
I have a bit of Sense Motive, but not great. I did roll decently, though.
Also, I am having fun, so no need to be sorry :) Just trying to make the best of the situation we are in - and for that, trying to understand that situation. ^_^
Oh, by "ruining the fun", I meant Kasyomnite potentially ruining Janus' fun with the girls by making the host throw us out when the girls started acting wierd... Which I'm not really sorry for, hence the smily.
Oh, but he does get to have fun(of a different kind) by messing (around) with Lucretia, which, honestly, is much more amusing than the off-screen fun with brothel girls. :)
And the statement is including IC(didn't come here because he was in the mood, he came here because work), so...yeah, having fun :)
Oh, but he does get to have fun(of a different kind) by messing (around) with Lucretia, which, honestly, is much more amusing than the off-screen fun with brothel girls. :)
And the statement is including IC(didn't come here because he was in the mood, he came here because work), so...yeah, having fun :)
Ok then, the Case of the Forgetful Proprietor. :)
A couple of humanocentric world assumptions going in: Everybody knows that magic is real and can do things. In particular, it can do lots of terrible things and is generally mysterious. Doing magic doesn't make you into an evil alien, but most ordinary people want to keep you at arm's length. Misfortunes are often the cause of evil magic, just as they are the work of malign gods. This all comes out of both the obvious practicalities and a cultural history full of overweening, evil mages which informs a folklore full of similar sorts of stories.
Most people have never knowingly felt magic's touch, but they know enough to put two and two together. If something inexplicable happens, then it's probably magic or something else supernatural and/or monstrous. Either way, it's something frightening and dangerous.
And this holds true even in fairly cosmopolitan places. Daggerford is not one of those, but even in Waterdeep unexpected magic is a serious deal for most people and they'll be inclined to run or call the Watch on you. That one uses magic on someone without warning and consent presents as proof positive that it's the bad stuff, because otherwise why would you do it at all?
Which brings us to the sequence of events:
1) The party comes in, throwing coins around. The proprietor rolls his staff out of bed (it's early yet, especially for them) because there's money to be had. Since it's being thrown around, probably a lot.
2) Outside, Kas pre-cast his spell. No one knows it's running. So when he comes in, it's not an issue.
3) While the others are talking to the staff, Kas uses his spell to whisper to one of the prostitutes. From per POV, someone is whispering into her ear. That's not unusual. The message is. She looks and no one is there. At this point it crosses over into genuinely worrisome. But she does have a job to do and is among friends, so she's willing to tough it out in hopes of the big score.
4) Second woman has the same thing happen and goes through a similar process, except she noticed the other one skip a beat there. They trade looks and realize something bad just happened to both of them.
5) The proprietor is a professional. He knows his staff and their moods. One of them might just have had a moment of discomfort. Could be an uncomfortable chair. Maybe one of you has an ugly mole she spotted. Maybe one of the others stepped on her foot under the table. When a second one has the same thing, he knows something is up and it's serious. He doesn't know what, but he's not going to risk his people on it.
6) He also doesn't want to develop a bad reputation or do something that might anger these highly-armed adventurers, because who knows what adventurers might do. So he invents a lie to get rid of you without causing offense.
7) Kas hits him with a spell-like and suddenly he sounds SO persuasive. It's hard to say no. He's struggling with the effects of a magical compulsion and to reconcile its demands with his own imperatives. Hence doubling-down on the story. If you can pay a lot of money, he can convince himself that it's a small thing he doesn't need to worry about, as his people will be fine.
Thank you for that. It did clear up one thing for me that will be nice to know going forward. I had assumed magic was more commonplace and less suspicious. Though for Kasyomnite having grown up in amongst so much magic, it might actually be a justifiable belief, even if it was wrong.
I guess Kasyomnite's plan failed pretty badly, but it's not like anyone is hurt over it, so it could be much worse.
Thanks a lot for the clarification, much appreciated :)
As Kasy said, it's good knowing these things going in. It's a basic level of information that we would expect our characters to have, so it's great knowing how things work. That definitely helped!
Well, this seems to be turning into a right comedy of errors! I suppose the most that can be hoped for at this point is that Chaïa'll announce this Auric fellow, as she pretends to have some connection with the place, the proprietor might well wonder what on earth is going on, but take Auric on as one of his expected VIPs, and all we PCs will take our leave with as much grace as the situation permits.
On the plus side, at least we know where this guy is, and, I don't know, can keep a discreet eye on the place? And if we've just talked Auric into a very good time, however inadvertently, he'll owe us one.
That's the most optimistic result that seems at all probable to me, but of course it could get much, much sillier, though hopefully not! ;)
Thanks a lot for the clarification, much appreciated :)
As Kasy said, it's good knowing these things going in. It's a basic level of information that we would expect our characters to have, so it's great knowing how things work. That definitely helped!
It would stand to reason that a gnome or elf would have somewhat less trepidation and fewer inhibitions about such things, particularly with a magic-heavy upbringing and the training to recognize harmless spells.
I tend to agree, Chaia. I had hoped the proprietor would need to keep up his charade, and refuse Auric, if the whole place is booked out. That way, we could have chatted him up, sharing the fate of being thrown out of a brothel because of some pesky nobles.
But no, he sneakily gets escorted to another room. There goes that plan.
@Gnome+Elf: Sure, but they will also understand human society after a while. They do have long lives, and while their personal views may differ, it stands to reason they would adapt to the society they choose to live in.
I seem to recall a difference of acceptance of Divine vs Arcane magic in the Realms, though I could be off base.
I tend to agree, Chaia. I had hoped the proprietor would need to keep up his charade, and refuse Auric, if the whole place is booked out. That way, we could have chatted him up, sharing the fate of being thrown out of a brothel because of some pesky nobles.
But no, he sneakily gets escorted to another room. There goes that plan.@Gnome+Elf: Sure, but they will also understand human society after a while. They do have long lives, and while their personal views may differ, it stands to reason they would adapt to the society they choose to live in.
I'll leave that to all those "foolish" people with a positive wisdom nod to understand. ;) It's not like Kasyomnite has traveled all that much around yet either.
@Arcane/Divine mistrust - I'll jot that one down to the divines at least have to flash their id as they cast. If someone shows you a sunburst and rainbows it is probably not going to be that bad. Skulls and blood-drops on the other hand and the reaction would probably be different : P
Also, all the (mostly human) evil mage organizations certainly doesn't help!
Btw, I also considered dropping a hint that we came there to celebrate...having had great luck digging up one of the graves and now being rich.
May lead to them seeking US out...but if the idea is worth pursuing, someone with a more decent bluff would need to do that, I think.(I will spend a point on Level 2, but was stretched thin at first level)
@Arcane/Divine mistrust - I'll jot that one down to the divines at least have to flash their id as they cast. If someone shows you a sunburst and rainbows it is probably not going to be that bad. Skulls and blood-drops on the other hand and the reaction would probably be different : P
Also, all the (mostly human) evil mage organizations certainly doesn't help!
Yes, most people are broadly familiar with the major gods and their symbols. It's the kind of education everybody gets, whether from local priests (who may lie to them about their gods' enemies or virtues, but do not about the signs) or otherwise. Divine spellcasting involves invocations of that god and the presentation of the holy symbol in ways that ordinary people recognize. (For oracles, those invocations are optional because who knows where the stuff really originates?)
They wouldn't necessarily know the spell, but if you see Lathander's symbol and hear his name or title then you know it's happy time sunrise magic. You're probably safe even if the rest of it is incomprehensible babble to you. Contrariwise if someone's invoking Shar it's time to evacuate your bowel.
None of this applies to divine magic that comes out of a wand, spell-likes, and so forth. That's indistinguishable from wizardry to most people and they would be inclined to play it safe unless a known trustworthy caster were in visible control.
And yes, it's the kind of thing I ought to have said upfront. In my defense, I expected the Unther adaptations to be more pressing. :)
So it might help for Kasyomnite to pull out his holy symbol? Though I guess most people likely wouldn't recognize it anyway...
Sorry for not posting much, being sick has stolen quite a bit of the little free time I usually have in weekends. It doesn't help that it's getting colder either (hence making it much more difficult to use the phone outside). I heard there was snow falling today some places. I hope to get in some posts a bit later in the day.
No worries here, things are clear now and that's fine.
I would, however, drop some of my purchased stuff to try and aquire a silver holy symbol with my starting cash, if that is permissable.
(I could afford wood or iron easily, but silver is prettier - I'm vain about my equipment, sue me :P )
As you say, with oracles, they don't know, but best to pretend and blend in. Sune, maybe? ;)
@Janus: It's common knowledge in FR that anyone without a diety don't get an after life. So you might want to actually pick something seriously;).
Oh, it's not about afterlife. I don't plan on dying any time soon.
It's more about who to pretend his power originates from(and I'm pretty certain it's not Sune). Something well known(major deity), something with positive association(good), and not too cliche(Lathander).
That said, I'm fully open to suggestions. My FR-Lore is somewhat rusty.
(Also, if the type of afterlife I get depends on the god I worship, another reason to sign up with Sune for real, as per your suggestion - ;) )
So it might help for Kasyomnite to pull out his holy symbol? Though I guess most people likely wouldn't recognize it anyway...
An unrecognized holy symbol might not provide much benefit; there are lots of signs and badges in the Realms. The reaction might be "why is this gnome waiving around the sign of some noble family or trading house?"
But you could pick up one for one of the common goodly gods and use it. There would be a bluff check to convincingly pass off arcane magic as prayers, but it's doable. Azuth (wizards) or Mystra (all magic) might seem like good prospects, but they're both LN and morally dubious to many. Of course impersonating clergy could come with its own risks. :)
Sorry for not posting much, being sick has stolen quite a bit of the little free time I usually have in weekends. It doesn't help that it's getting colder either (hence making it much more difficult to use the phone outside). I heard there was snow falling today some places. I hope to get in some posts a bit later in the day.
It's ok. Post when you can.
You could also go for Talos and people might not have the guts to intervene : P
@Afterlive - People whom die without an patron on the Forgotten Realms have their souls immured within the wall of faithless for eternity to come; a fate which does sorta suck : P
(Just to clarify what Kasy said, it's not just the mere lack of an 'normal' afterlife you should worry about!)
Aye, Lucretia, it came back to me. Thing is, I(as player) wasn't "active" in Faerun for a long time, despite fond memories of FR. I fully intend to give Janus some deitys patronage, whichever one feels natural for how exactly he ends up being, characterwise...so I left that open.
But if he means to pass off his oracle spells as clerical ones, then he'd best have a holy symbol of a well-known good deity around, which may or may not, in the end, be the one he follows for realsies.
But thanks to both of your for the clarification.
@Janus: I got two cool options for you:
1) Selune. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to get Desna's boons for her if you pick Defic Obedience. The final Exalted Boon is kinda nice for a channeler (tough I guess you wouldn't get it before 20th level), but the other boons are nice too. Slune is probably more human-friendly than my own Sehaine Moonbow.
2) Lathander. Again Defic Obedience is what draws me to suggesting this choice. Sarenrae got some nice boons for a channeler. You might even take the Exalted prestige class to get access to them earlier (though it would slightly weaken the spirit guide part of your character).
Of course you could probably pass off those boons on some other deity, but those were the ones who struck me. I know there were recently released several new boons, but they are not available online and I don't have the books, but there might be even better options there.
On Canonicity & Theology Since I'm thinking about this stuff anyway.
One of the things you see in older FR books is that information comes with a provenance. It's often referenced as rumors or stories and then all wrapped in a frame story about how Elminster, Laeral, or someone else served as the principal informant. That's a little wink-and-nudge for me, but over the years I've sort of backed into doing something similar when PCs roll knowledge checks. You get what your character knows, framed around the character's background and interests. To that end, it's best to understand setting information (even if I give it here instead of in the main threat, though to a lesser degree) as relating to the world as characters therein understand it.
Most people in the world don't go to the planes and poke around various afterlives. Indeed, very few people do and most of them (powerful wizards, other adventurers) are decidedly suspect sources. For ordinary people, what they know from trusted priests or local elders is far more reliable. They rarely have occasion, unless they're long-ranging traders or in far-reaching correspondence, to even compare notes with people outside their local bubbles and their informants all come with strong agendas. Something a priest came up with decades back to answer a specific question can easily become local dogma. If a prominent clergyperson says it, or the idea appears useful, it can spread further. Information has a history.
For most clergy, divination to quiz the gods isn't an option; they don't have the juice. Gods tend to communicate with individuals through dreams, which are not the thing that a decent person should lie about (it's impious, if nothing else) but also entirely open to interpretation. When gods want to communicate with groups of people, it's more common for them to send an omen or manifestation than write a memo. These are often symbolic: all the candles go out, the altar glows, a sign appears above it, that kind of thing. Even a voice from the altar, which is quite rare, is usually terse and cryptic or about some oddly narrow thing like whether someone should be trained in the priesthood.
For the clergy who do have the juice, there's a combination of unwillingness to ask direct questions on doctrine (since they might be wrong or get an answer that has wide-reaching repercussions) and deities still being cryptic or giving conflicting answers.
This is usually put down to the gods acting on a radically different level from mortals -they are gods- but it may also reflect ambiguity in the minds of the gods, or outright deception. The gods also don't help matters by empowering diverse sects, acting under various guises, exhibiting varying aspects, and so forth. Is that beast cult down the road just a bunch of wild people who think beholders are gods because they're crazy or spell-enthralled, or is someone giving them the real goods behind the scenes? Maybe there's even some kind of nascent, or long-forgotten, godling involved that no one has ever heard of. Figuring that out is the stuff of adventures more than knowledge checks.
Which is all to say that the Wall of the Faithless and all the rest are certainly popular stories, just as the themed afterlives of paradise for the true, but the people telling them don't have perfect information themselves and strong incentives to smooth over inconvenient or unflattering stuff. It would be unusual, but someone could go against the accepted wisdom on such things. The Wall is significant in part because so many divergent faiths agree on it.
What would be very unlikely is modern-style disbelief in the lot of it. Believing in the gods, in the Realms, doesn't mean you necessarily worship them all or consider the lot your joint lords & masters. They're polytheists, though most will naturally incline towards those gods whom they know best and feel the most personal connection to. With the partial exception of clergy, they don't stop believing other gods have a claim to their worship and respect.
For example, Bob the Farmer knows about the major gods. Because he's a farmer, he naturally inclines toward Chauntea. She's the goddess that will make his crops grow. A good portion of his spiritual life is oriented around her. But in the course of a single day he might also utter prayers and make appropriate (though probably smaller) sacrifices to other gods relevant to his life. Praying to Talos means the wind and lightning will not blast his craps. An offering to Auril can stay early frosts and make for an easier winter. A few words to Waukeen might help get a good price. A little blood in the woodlot for Malar may keep the wolves from his flock. If he's plowing a new field or expecting a child soon, Lathander comes in. If one of his sons ran off to be a caravan guard, he might give Tempus a few nods. Whenever possible, Bob would avoid giving special offense to every god he knows about. That includes keeping clear of sacred spaces he doesn't know the proper rules for (what to do, what not to do), respecting priests, not damaging altars and so forth. It doesn't matter how evil the god is, you don't want a curse or some sort of mortal instruments to take vengeance.
Clergy (whether of the getting spells variety or people who are recognized members of the priesthood for other reasons) follow different rules. Deities usually require their exclusive obedience, making the god's foes your own, and that kind of thing. If there's a stone in the woods where wild men dance naked and bloody, cheering for Malar as they gut a boar, Bob the farmer's job is to stay away. Bill the priest of a god who opposes Malar is supposed to get up in there and wreck up the place or turn it to more acceptable forms of worship. (Probably both.) It's his job to be a partisan and footsoldier for the Head Office. Taking on the friends is also expected, so it's usually fine for clergy to pay their respects to aligned divinities. Merely neutral or alignment-compatible gods don't cut it, but divinities who have closer connections are a different story. For example, the Triad (Tyr, Ilmater, Torm) get on famously and none of them is going to begrudge a good word said for another. Evil gods tend to be more jealous on this front, but it does vary.
There are theological explanations (often numerous ones) for the various connections that give clergy more leeway. (Just as for everything else.) A priestess of Mystra might say that it's ok to entrust something to the clergy of Azuth because he serves her. A priest of Azuth might hold the opposite: Mystra and hers are trustworthy because Azuth commands her as a wizard commands magic. Every religion has myths which place its god as the absolute most important of them all and sets the others in some kind of inferior relation.
Clear as mud yet? :)
No, no, this makes perfect sense to me. XD
Though if we drag this game on for a couple of years, we might need a new lesson on theology really quick! : P
Though if we drag this game on for a couple of years, we might need a new lesson on theology really quick! : P
Probably not; never been a fan of Cyric. Bane is a nightmare god in a suit of armor. You never see his face, like if the Witch-King were a divinity. Cyric is just a dick.
I also prefer WTF mad scientist Mystra who may mean well but is really all about magic and only cares about uses insofar as its sustainable and leads to more magic being used. She doesn't care about your mortal morality; she cares about the advance of Art. Which fits with a meta thing I also like that portfolios, rather than alignments, are reflective of the gods. They say more about mortal worshipers.
Admittedly some divinities are more morally-inflected than others. Torm doesn't make sense if he's not big-G Good. But they're not all like that.
@Bird Species - Arun is an blackbird, a sort of thrushes. He is much smaller then a raven, sings much better and lastly - perhaps more importantly - gives + to diplomacy instead of appraise :P
Dunno where I got Raven. Sorry, Arun! Of course, you're a Blackbird.
@Divinities: I think your idea pretty much fits with the setting. Wasn't, for sake of example(because I mentioned her earlier) Sune simply re-skinned Aphrodite, by Mr. Elminster himself?
So a personified concept that cares nothing about mortal morals, being entirely based on her portfolio. "Real" gods were good in that distinction, also made it impossible to form expectations towards them, or question their decisions.
For Gods("unstatted" in the White Wolf/World of Darkness sense of the word) I always preferred this approach, which better suits a lasting entity of nigh-absolute power.
And also explains why a power vacuum gets filled by someone else...the concept remains, the tool may change. But that's details.
I often have things set up in a "nature abhors a vacuum" sort of way. XD You can't take an existing deity's place as long as something occupies it, but if it's empty? Well, that's one of the conditions for ascension.
That's why the enterprising people creates some space!
Oh and if you don't like Cyric - it sounds like there is an job-opening coming up. We'll take good care of that sword he would get, I promise ... :P
*Looks at Drawback*
*Looks at Third Trait*
"Yeah, ok, I'll do it."
@Bird Species - Arun is an blackbird, a sort of thrushes. He is much smaller then a raven, sings much better and lastly - perhaps more importantly - gives + to diplomacy instead of appraise :P
Take the speech as a translation of empathic transmissions. Arun did the Lassie thing with vague impressions of distance, space, and import mixed with a little dance or something.
Also: Timmy has been in the well for like seventy years. He's dead. And the Timmy after him and the one after that. Lassie goes through Timmies like Mr. Wizard goes through youthful assistants.
Dunno where I got Raven. Sorry, Arun! Of course, you're a Blackbird.
@Divinities: I think your idea pretty much fits with the setting. Wasn't, for sake of example(because I mentioned her earlier) Sune simply re-skinned Aphrodite, by Mr. Elminster himself?
Ed says so in Dragon #54. Except for citing Aphrodite's appearance in Deities & Demigods, that's the entirety of her entry. I was curious so I checked. :)
So a personified concept that cares nothing about mortal morals, being entirely based on her portfolio. "Real" gods were good in that distinction, also made it impossible to form expectations towards them, or question their decisions.
Basically that, yes. Individual gods might care or not, or might not even be capable of caring. There are in-world reasons that mortals think they take an interest, though these might be much less persuasive to people not in the flock in question. A god might have a personality, likes, hates, etc and also be just a name you slap on a law of physics. Gods are weird that way.
For Gods("unstatted" in the White Wolf/World of Darkness sense of the word) I always preferred this approach, which better suits a lasting entity of nigh-absolute power.
After seeing how poorly 3e handled stats for gods, I'm inclined to agree. There are certainly ways to go out and kill divine beings, and especially semi-divine ones, but divinity is a radically different level of existence. As a practical matter, the states have to be so massive for them to feel like gods that they might as well operate on handwaves. Moreover, killing a god is quite unlikely to be the end of it.
On a meta level, it's also likely that the more powerful gods become the more alien from mortal connections they also become. Is Kossuth the king of fire elementals, sitting on his burning throne? Or is he the platonic ideal of fire, instantiated in the minds of countless billions of mortals who through the convergence of their thoughts and experiences create a being who IS fire? Is such a being even conscious? And do the answers for him hold true for Lathander, Mystra, or Ilmater? Yes, no, maybe. Ask an in-game theologian for the full range of answers.
And also explains why a power vacuum gets filled by someone else...the concept remains, the tool may change. But that's details.
Probably. I figure there's a tremendous amount of room at the bottom of the divine totem-pole, but on some unfathomable level there is a finite amount of space at the top. Some of that can be down to gods rubbing out or subsuming their competition, or being lessened by splits, but there distinctions between levels of divinity are profound enough that on the low end the big players probably don't care and many failed gods might settle down into the shallow end and persist for eons, forgotten.
@Talking birds - Luckily, Thrush familiars get to talk as well. In that way, they are actually like ravens : )
@Un-stated gods- So no stabbing Ao? Got it! :P