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Is it possible to become proficient with improvised weapons (through means such as the feat Catch Off-Guard or Monk of the Empty Hand archetype)? If so, is it then possible to take Weapon Focus (and other feats which require weapon proficiency) with an improvised weapon?
This is apparently quite a controversial topic and could really use some clarification. The rules do not make it clear what "weapon proficiency" even is which I think is the root of the problem.
Looking at Simple Weapon Proficiency we see:
You are trained in the use of basic weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat.
And Martial Weapon Proficiency we see:
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Now, neither of these say "you are proficient", they simply say you can attack without the -4 penalty.
Then we look at Catch Off-Guard:
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Catch Off-Guard does the exact same thing as the proficiency feats by simply removing the penalty from attacking with improvised weapons. You may even relate that -4 penalty to being a non-proficiency penalty when you look at this taken from the rules for Improvised weapons:
Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
To me, it seems like Catch Off-Guard essentially negates that line, which would mean they are no longer non-proficient and thus they are, instead, proficient.
On top of all this, James Jacobs says this on the matter:
The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?
(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)
Basically, it appears that to be considered proficient with a weapon, you must not incur the -4 penalty with it. Based on this information, it would seem like Catch Off-Guard does grant proficiency with improvised weapons. Unfortunately, there are a great number of folks (at least one 5 star GM included) that disagree.
If it is ruled that you can be proficient with improvised weapons, then you should be able to take Weapon Focus with them (for one improvised weapon per feat, of course), but it seems necessary, given the history, to go ahead and clarify that question also.
Thank you for your time.
(Posting this here so it can be FAQ'd)
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No, Weapon Focus (rock) is not a valid feat, unless you're a Cliff Giant.
I believe THIS was the thread that started all the contention around "Improvised Weapon Proficiency".
It would be nice to have a little more improvised weapon clarity... I'd love to have a battle cleric with a polearm who could wield the haft as an improvised weapon after casting Magic Weapon on it, but nothing about that is uncontroversial.
A somewhat similar question would be "if a character can wield a katana in two hands as a martial weapon without penalty, is he 'proficient' enough with the katana to qualify for weapon focus: katana?"
No, Weapon Focus (rock) is not a valid feat, unless you're a Cliff Giant.
I believe THIS was the thread that started all the contention around "Improvised Weapon Proficiency".
Ahh, thanks for linking to that. I have found this within:
... okay, that's awesome. Well played, Tels. Well played.
EDIT: Linkage!
Simple
Martial
ExoticYeah, that pretty much seals it. There's non-standard English ways of explaining the RAW and noting that the feats don't grant proficiency, but then you're being pedantic for... no real purpose. PFS would almost have to accept the ruling that not taking the penalties is the same as being proficient.
See also This Thread.
Basically, you have to be proficient with a weapon to take weapon focus, and the rules for improvised weapons state that users are considered non-proficient. Barring some new feat or feature that specifically overrides that, we're kinda stuck.
See also This Thread.
Basically, you have to be proficient with a weapon to take weapon focus, and the rules for improvised weapons state that users are considered non-proficient. Barring some new feat or feature that specifically overrides that, we're kinda stuck.
RAW, the only thing that grants weapon proficiency (with any weapon) are Race and Class features. There is not a feat that grants "proficiency" of any kind. The question is, is this the intention? Maybe it is, and you really are not proficient without something saying very specifically "you are proficient with...". Surely this is not the intention however or Exotic Weapon Proficiency would not work how many people have been assuming it does (allowing weapon focus and such with exotic weapons).
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RAW, the only thing that grants weapon proficiency (with any weapon) are Race and Class features.
I think some archetypes grant some weapon proficiencies as well.
There is not a feat that grants "proficiency" of any kind.
There are. Martial Weapon Proficiency. Exotic Weapon Proficiency. What there is not is a feat that grants improvised weapon proficiency.
any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it
Rather hard to argue intent when this specifically states that you're considered to be non-proficient.
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RAW, the only thing that grants weapon proficiency (with any weapon) are Race and Class features.I think some archetypes grant some weapon proficiencies as well.
Indeed, the archetype changes the class features, so this is a class feature, I would say.
There is not a feat that grants "proficiency" of any kind.There are. Martial Weapon Proficiency. Exotic Weapon Proficiency. What there is not is a feat that grants improvised weapon proficiency.
My point, is that no where in those feats, does it explicitly say that "you are proficient". The feats simply remove the penalty for non-proficiency, which is the same thing that Catch Off-Guard does. I had detailed this rather thoroughly in the OP, I thought.
any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with itRather hard to argue intent when this specifically states that you're considered to be non-proficient.
Under Weapons you'll find:
Most character classes are proficient with all simple weapons. Combat-oriented classes such as barbarians, cavaliers, and fighters are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons. Characters of other classes are proficient with an assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons they gain from their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon.
This basically implies that you are non-proficient with everything unless you are explicitly proficient with it. So, improvised weapons reminds you that you are non-proficient which means -4 to hit and again Catch Off-Guard removes this -4 penalty.
I'll restate that the root of this issue seems to lie in the fact that Weapon Proficiency is not well defined, which is why I believe there should be clarification.
My point, is that no where in those feats, does it explicitly say that "you are proficient".
Isn't it right there in the feats name ?
The feats simply remove the penalty for non-proficiency, which is the same thing that Catch Off-Guard does.
So you're saying that the feat named Martial Weapons Proficiency (weapon) doesn't actually grant proficiency, but only remove the penalty.
At least I understand your contention now. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
EDIT: fixed quote tags
My point, is that no where in those feats, does it explicitly say that "you are proficient".Isn't it right there in the feats name ?
It does say proficiency in the name of the feat but in my opinion, the feat only does what is listed in the "benefit/normal/special" section, the rest is just description/fluff. Perhaps the fact that the feat's name contains "proficiency" is enough to grant proficiency but I've never before had to rely on a feat's name to tell me what the feat does.
The feats simply remove the penalty for non-proficiency, which is the same thing that Catch Off-Guard does.So you're saying that the feat named Martial Weapons Proficiency (weapon) doesn't actually grant proficiency, but only remove the penalty.
What I'm saying is that it seems like removing the penalty causes one to be proficient. I have linked my evidence supporting this theory in the OP. The quote from James Jacobs is very supportive of this theory. Also, the Dwarf Oracle Favored Class Bonus sort of points in this direction.
However, the more and more I read into this, strictly RAW, those feats do not grant proficiency, they merely remove the penalty for using them, which seems incredibly counter-intuitive and completely unintended (intention based on naming of feats.)|
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Considering that I've had some hardcore RAW-headed GMs claim that the spell Comprehend Languages only allows you to know one single language per casting because of an errant parsing in the explanation of the spell to differentiate it from Tongues despite the damn spells name being Comprehend Languages. Because of this anal retentive tendency among GMs, having this clearly spelled out would be vastly helpful to at least put a nail in this particular coffin.
Personally, I would like it if one could get Weapon Focus/Specialization/enchantment/etc. with Improvised Weapons provided one were willing to spend the necessary feats to do so. I mean, seriously, why does this make so many GMs and players freak right the **** out? There's a feat that lets a monk RUN ON CEILINGS yet being able to have proficiency in and enchant a rolling pin is considered verboten? Seriously?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Is it possible to become proficient with improvised weapons (through means such as the feat Catch Off-Guard or Monk of the Empty Hand archetype)? If so, is it then possible to take Weapon Focus (and other feats which require weapon proficiency) with an improvised weapon?
No
No
But you probably don't agree with that answer, which is fine. But there is no rule saying you can become proficient with a rules abstracted non-proficient thing.
I should also note, that the devs have commented in the past that they wished some of us didn't read the rules so pedantically because they are explicitly written to be read in plain english and not parsed this strictly. Parsing them this way (pedantically) leads to all sort of unintended issues.
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As multiple FAQ's and developer posts have stated, the name of something has no bearing on the rules. The feats could be called martial swings and things, simple uses and exotic particles but the only things that matter are what is said in the statistics line.
There are some hyper-literal interpretations out there and some, I think, take it too far. The developers have also stated that common sense should be applied but many people (and I am definitely referencing some GM's) do not care to apply that recommendation. I guess there is only so much the developers can do to keep things consistent and leave the rest to us. The level of nitpicking can get pretty absurd around here. I've seen entire threads derailed because of it.
On the flip side, there sure as heck is something to be said for consistency when designing a game: consistently and thoroughness. As an inherited game, thoroughness can be difficult to pull off.
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Well this is an interesting question.
Basic proficiency rule: "A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls." Add to it things like this: "Kitsune (Advanced Race Guide): Reduce the penalty for not being proficient for one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the oracle is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon." Between the two it would seem that if you get rid of the penalty, you could as proficient with the item.
IMO proficiency is the ability to use a weapon without a penalty do to non-proficiency. The proficiency feats follow this logic by just allowing "You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)." If you get an ability to 'make attack rolls normally' with an improvised weapon, it sure sounds like the same thing as being proficient with it.
The developers have also stated that common sense should be applied
Common sense tells me it's possible to be really damn good at hitting people with a frying pan. It also tells me that for any class/archetype that focuses on using improvised weapons is going to be proficient with them.
Some people seem to get caught up on the name Monk of the Empty Hand as literally meaning that they are meant to fight with unarmed strikes even when the description readsThe monk of the empty hand eschews normal weapons in favor of whatever is lying around—rocks, chair legs, flagons of ale, even a simple quill pen all become deadly weapons in the hands of such a monk.
If their whole shtick is using improvised weapons, wouldn't you think they should be pretty good at it?
"Kitsune (Advanced Race Guide): Reduce the penalty for not being proficient for one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the oracle is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon."
That's the Kitsune Favored Class option for Oracle, just in case anyone's having trouble finding it.
I find it telling that the writer specifically calls out that the Oracle will be treated as having Proficiency at a certain point, while the writer of Catch Off-Guard did not.
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Personally, it makes no sense that someone could be proficient with a chin blade, wet rope, a hard ladder, or a sharp piece of clothing, but not something as simple as a pointy rock. And if my DM told me "Your Oread Rock-Mystery Oracle / Monk of the Empty Hand with the Rock Throwing revelation and years of highly-specialized training with improvised weaponry (such as rocks) isn't proficient with rocks", I'd probably laugh at him.
The concept of a masterwork rock just hurts my mind. Maybe a masterwork brick or cobblestone ?
The concept of a masterwork rock just hurts my mind. Maybe a masterwork brick or cobblestone ?
Think of Masterwork improvised weapons as items that are higher quality when used for combat - for instance, Shale is thin and rather brittle while Obsidian is much harder and can be quite sharp.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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whole shtick is using improvised weapons, wouldn't you think they should be pretty good at it?
They are good at them, but that doesn't make them proficient with them. If they did become proficient with them, they would no longer be improvised. If no longer improvised, they would need to use them as an improvised weapon (negating the Weapon Focus Pan feat) to use.
Catch Off Guard is a prerequisite for Improvised Weapon Mastery. So, I would say no.
carefully chipped obsidian shank
I think we're into the realm of primitive weapons now, no longer improvised weapon (rock).
Catch Off Guard is a prerequisite for Improvised Weapon Mastery. So, I would say no.
I don't see what that has to do with anything... Catch Off Guard is for melee and Throw Anything is for ranged. Improvised Weapon Mastery covers both. Not seeing how that affects proficiency...
I can't help but look at the wording of the proficiency feats. Proficiency is being able to use a weapon without the non-proficient penalty and being able to make attack rolls weapon without the penalty is the 'normal' way to use them.
whole shtick is using improvised weapons, wouldn't you think they should be pretty good at it?They are good at them, but that doesn't make them proficient with them. If they did become proficient with them, they would no longer be improvised. If no longer improvised, they would need to use them as an improvised weapon (negating the Weapon Focus Pan feat) to use.
The Fire Bomber (Alchemist; Goblin) "treats a torch as a simple weapon" and that means they are proficient with it. [Torch Handling feat does the same] Does that magically change it to a non-improvised weapon? As shown by the Combat Scabbard the weapon can be counted as a weapon AND an improvised one.
Also look at the Firebrand/Torch Bearer feat. It lets you treat a torch as a light weapon and "you do not incur penalties as you would for using it as an improvised weapon." Note it doesn't say it stops being improvised, just that you ignore the penalties.
"Benefit: You treat a torch as a light weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a light mace of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage, and you do not incur penalties as you would for using it as an improvised weapon.
Normal: A torch used in combat is treated as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage."
...i totally missed that torch related stuff... That would be very useful in some of the games i play!
You want a sweet torch, go goblin. Take Fire Hand and Burn!Burn!Burn!. You have a torch that deals 1d2 B damage plus 1d4+1 fire damage and not only to you not take a minus to hit, you get a +1 bonus! If you add torch bearer You can up the weapon damage to 1d4 and make it a light weapon too. A goblin fighter can pull it off by second since 2 of those are combat feats!
Fighter. Why not get weapon specialization too. ;)
Catch Off Guard is a prerequisite for Improvised Weapon Mastery. So, I would say no.I don't see what that has to do with anything... Catch Off Guard is for melee and Throw Anything is for ranged. Improvised Weapon Mastery covers both. Not seeing how that affects proficiency...
I can't help but look at the wording of the proficiency feats. Proficiency is being able to use a weapon without the non-proficient penalty and being able to make attack rolls weapon without the penalty is the 'normal' way to use them.
Except for one proficiency feat, all of the others cover all weapons of their type.
Ah..... MagusJanus, I can't get a point out of what you just said that has any reliance in the discussion we're having. Either you are not doing a good job of explaining it or I'm doing a bad job of understanding it. Either way, I'm left scratching my head and saying to myself "So?".
Some feats/abilities cover all weapons of their type (simple weapon/Improvised Weapon Mastery) and some feats/abilities cover smaller subsets (martial weapon proficiency/exotic weapon proficiency/Rough and Ready). I'm not sure what 'one proficiency feat' you're talking about or what meaning it'd have if i did.
As a curious sidenote: Would a gnome with the Master Tinker trait be proficient in a torch (or any other improvised weapon) is they craft it? We know a torch can be a weapon and the trait says you gain proficiency in any weapon you make...
Ah..... MagusJanus, I can't get a point out of what you just said that has any reliance in the discussion we're having. Either you are not doing a good job of explaining it or I'm doing a bad job of understanding it. Either way, I'm left scratching my head and saying to myself "So?".
Some feats/abilities cover all weapons of their type (simple weapon/Improvised Weapon Mastery) and some feats/abilities cover smaller subsets (martial weapon proficiency/exotic weapon proficiency/Rough and Ready). I'm not sure what 'one proficiency feat' you're talking about or what meaning it'd have if i did.
And, on careful reading, I was wrong. Hrm.
Okay, to explain what I'm stating:
There are two types of proficiency granted by the proficiency feats. Simple Weapon Proficiency grants it with all simple weapons, whether ranged or melee. Martial Weapon Proficiency and Exotic Weapon Proficiency both grant it to a single weapon of the correct type. However, a lot of characters with martial weapon proficiency have it with the whole range.
Improvised Weapon Mastery grants the similar effect, a removal of a negative modifier, with all improvised weapons. Both of its pre-req feats, Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything, give a type of proficiency with either all melee improvised weapons or all ranged improvised weapons. Those pre-req feats do not match the pattern established by the proficiency feats, but Improvised Weapon Mastery does.
So if you want to by a pattern-match in how it affects negative modifiers, Improvised Weapon Mastery is the only one that can be a proficiency feat.
So feats/abilities can ONLY give the whole group or just one proficiency?
Look at race traits like Ancestral Arms (Half-Elf), Exotic Weapon Training (Tengu), Pit Boss (Hobgoblin.
Mythic Weapon Training (Ex): gain a block of proficiencies in a fighters group.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms): gives you an entire group of proficiencies (all fire arms).
So I've got a mythic ability, a feat and some race traits that disagree with you. you can gain single, multiple or entire groups of weapon proficiency.
Even if I couldn't have found those, I'd disagree with your conclusion. It just has to grant proficiency. "proficiency (no penalty for using an improvised weapon or not having the required proficiency). Peasant Armaments spell.
So feats/abilities can ONLY give the whole group or just one proficiency?
Not what I meant. I brought up the martial weapon proficiencies of classes because I figured someone would bring it up anyway, so I merely cited it to show it as an exception.
Look at race traits like Ancestral Arms (Half-Elf), Exotic Weapon Training (Tengu), Pit Boss (Hobgoblin.
Those are not feats.
Mythic Weapon Training (Ex): gain a block of proficiencies in a fighters group.
This provides it with all weapons of a group. That is a similar mechanic to Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms): gives you an entire group of proficiencies (all fire arms).
That grants it to a whole group. Once again, same as Simple Weapon proficiency.
So I've got a mythic ability, a feat and some race traits that disagree with you. you can gain single, multiple or entire groups of weapon proficiency.
You've got a mythic ability and a feat that do not disagree and race traits that do not count. We are discussing feats, are we not?
Even if I couldn't have found those, I'd disagree with your conclusion. It just has to grant proficiency. "proficiency (no penalty for using an improvised weapon or not having the required proficiency). Peasant Armaments spell.
Which, again, is not a feat.
If you want to argue on something providing proficiency as a feat, you need to keep your focus limited to feats. Otherwise, you build an argument that can easily be dismissed for relying on mechanics outside of its focus.
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Ah.... You don't seem to be following your own logic. Group (improvised ranged), group (improvised melee), group (firearms).
Please explain how you can say some of those aren't groups and others are? Firearms are a subset of exotic ranged. Throw Anything's improvised ranged are a subset of improvised. Not seeing how you say one subset is cool and the other isn't. You seem to be making up a rule that isn't there.
On the last part, I could care less that it's a spell, it give a description of what proficiency in an improvised weapon in. it for the definition so it's valid in saying what it is.
Ah.... You don't seem to be following your own logic. Group (improvised ranged), group (improvised melee), group (firearms).
Please explain how you can say some of those aren't groups and others are? Firearms are a subset of exotic ranged. Throw Anything's improvised ranged are a subset of improvised. Not seeing how you say one subset is cool and the other isn't. You seem to be making up a rule that isn't there.
The first two exclude a category, whether it is ranged or melee. Firearms doesn't; some firearms can be easily used in melee. I can understand how easy it is to forget about the buckler gun, dagger pistol, ax musket, or warhammer musket.
On the last part, I could care less that it's a spell, it give a description of what proficiency in an improvised weapon in. it for the definition so it's valid in saying what it is.
Fair enough.
Buckler gun, dagger pistol, ax musket, or warhammer musket aren't firearms usable in melee. They are a weird version of double weapons that have firearms as one end. Your using a melee weapon in melee and a ranged in ranged. I'd argue that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) only gives you the firearms part of those weapons (musket or pistol) and you require the normal proficiencies for the dagger, battle axe and/or warhammer. (they only count as double weapons for enchantment, otherwise they are just two weapons taped together)
If all you mean is that it contains both kinds then I have to look at the crossbow, bow, natural weapons and siege weapons groups and only see one kind of weapon (ranged OR melee).
To be blunt, you seem to be making up a rule that I don't see. Where is this rule about what can be in a subset?
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actually yeah, this is pretty funny, no where does it says martial or exotic weapon proficiency, actually give you proficiency with the selected item, it simply confers a exception to the unproficient rule.
Buckler gun, dagger pistol, ax musket, or warhammer musket aren't firearms usable in melee. They are a weird version of double weapons that have firearms as one end. Your using a melee weapon in melee and a ranged in ranged. I'd argue that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) only gives you the firearms part of those weapons (musket or pistol) and you require the normal proficiencies for the dagger, battle axe and/or warhammer. (they only count as double weapons for enchantment, otherwise they are just two weapons taped together)
Here's the descriptions for them:
"Buckler Gun: The front of this buckler is fitted with a small, double-barreled gun that can be shot while wearing the buckler. Unlike with a double-barreled pistol, you can only shoot one barrel at a time. You must remove the buckler to reload the gun. Each barrel of a buckler gun uses a bullet and 1 dose of black powder or single alchemical cartridge as ammunition. Because of its awkward construction, a buckler gun is always considered an off-handed weapon."
"Musket, Axe: This musket features an axe blade at the end of its barrel. It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe. It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the axe are considered broken. An axe musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition."
"Musket, Warhammer: This musket has a warhammer head at the end of its barrel, which allows it to be used as both a musket and a warhammer. It is considered a double weapon for purposes of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the warhammer are considered broken. A warhammer musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition."
"Pistol, Dagger: A combination of a coat pistol and a blade, the dagger pistol can be used as both weapons. The awkwardness of the configuration means you do not gain the bonus on Sleight of Hand checks that either of those stand-alone weapons grants. The dagger pistol is considered a double weapon for the purpose of creating masterwork or magical versions of this weapon. If this firearm gains the broken condition, both the firearm component and the dagger component are considered broken. A dagger pistol uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition."
Ultimate Equipment has a picture of a dagger pistol. It looks very similar to this picture.
In other words, three of them have the melee weapon and the blade on the same end and the other has the barrels incorporated right into its center mass. And while you may state that someone needs two proficiencies, the fact remains that the rules do not support that. They state that proficiency with firearms means with all firearms and do not state that you need a second proficiency to use the non-shooting elements of a firearm.
If all you mean is that it contains both kinds then I have to look at the crossbow, bow, natural weapons and siege weapons groups and only see one kind of weapon (ranged OR melee).
Natural weapons are never granted proficiency via a feat, and siege weaponry happens to include such things as battering rams. And none of the weapon proficiency feats state they only grant proficiency with all crossbows or all bows. So what you are looking at is something that doesn't make any sense and isn't supported by the rules text.
To be blunt, you seem to be making up a rule that I don't see. Where is this rule about what can be in a subset?
To be blunt, I'm trying to give you a way to make your assertion about the possibility of a feat granting improvised weapon proficiency logical.
As for what can and cannot be in a subset? That is stated by the classifications given by the feats that have proficiency in the title, the feats that require proficiency, and the weapon classifications tables.
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actually yeah, this is pretty funny, no where does it says martial or exotic weapon proficiency, actually give you proficiency with the selected item, it simply confers a exception to the unproficient rule.
Yep. "You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)." Which is why people ask if other things that negate the minuses do the same thing as those feats. The "You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon." from Catch Off-guard sure sounds the same to me. Even more so when you add in the wording from Peasant Armaments[a spell that grants proficiency in improvised weapons]: "proficiency (no penalty for using an improvised weapon or not having the required proficiency)."
"Buckler Gun:" Buckler isn't a normal weapon so I'll skip this.
"Musket, Axe: It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
"Musket, Warhammer: This musket has a warhammer head at the end of its barrel, which allows it to be used as both a musket and a warhammer.
"Pistol, Dagger: A combination of a coat pistol and a blade, the dagger pistol can be used as both weapons."
See I read it too. Take Dagger Pistol It's used as a firearm AND a melee weapon. If it can be used as a coat pistol then weapon focus (coat pistol) should work with it. it's treated as two different weapons attached together and without the clear rules that double weapons have. Now I might be reading it wrong, but I see that you treat it as those two weapons and see no reason firearms proficiency would let you use the non-firearm 'end'.
Natural weapons include a number of ranged weapons as well
Really? Please post these because I can't think of any that aren't special attacks. For instance a Manticore's spikes aren't natural weapons but a special ability.
And none of the weapon proficiency feats state they only grant proficiency with all crossbows or all bows.
I'd have to say "and?" You still haven't shown or proved that any of this is limited to feats and you yourself talked about groups and excluding ranged/melee.
As for what can and cannot be in a subset? That is stated by the classifications given by the feats that have proficiency in the title
Nope! There is no president that you seem to be trying to make. They can give as much as a whole group or as little as one weapon. You are making the distinction of subsets, not the feats. All they say is that being able to use a weapon 'normally', without non-proficiency minuses, IS proficiency. Anything beyond that was added by you.
the feats that require proficiency
What? Some feats need a single weapon proficiency (weapon focus) and some need a group(Squire and proficient with all martial weapons). Not getting point.
and the weapon classifications tables.
Not getting this either. How does the listings affect being proficient?
i think this might be FAQ worthy, because i see no straight forward way to say that martial weapon proficiency allows you to use feats that require proficiency with selected weapon, so why can't you get weapon focus (rock)?
"Buckler Gun:" Buckler isn't a normal weapon so I'll skip this.
"Musket, Axe: It can be used as both a musket and a battleaxe.
"Musket, Warhammer: This musket has a warhammer head at the end of its barrel, which allows it to be used as both a musket and a warhammer.
"Pistol, Dagger: A combination of a coat pistol and a blade, the dagger pistol can be used as both weapons."See I read it too. Take Dagger Pistol It's used as a firearm AND a melee weapon. If it can be used as a coat pistol then weapon focus (coat pistol) should work with it. it's treated as two different weapons attached together and without the clear rules that double weapons have. Now I might be reading it wrong, but I see that you treat it as those two weapons and see no reason firearms proficiency would let you use the non-firearm 'end'.
Find me a rules quote that supports your position. Because, as it stands, they are otherwise the same as any normal weapon with multiple methods of giving damage and a double weapon for enchanting. As it stands, you're not arguing anything that is supported by the rules text, and until you can find something to support it the rules are clear on this.
Natural weapons include a number of ranged weapons as wellReally? Please post these because I can't think of any that aren't special attacks. For instance a Manticore's spikes aren't natural weapons but a special ability.
I edited that to say this: "Natural weapons are never granted proficiency via a feat"
And none of the weapon proficiency feats state they only grant proficiency with all crossbows or all bows.I'd have to say "and?" You still haven't shown or proved that any of this is limited to feats and you yourself talked about groups and excluding ranged/melee.
And you yourself have not demonstrated that any feat grants proficiency with improvised weapons.
Also, I have talked about patterns of feats; you have not posted one single feat that breaks the pattern I established, or even found one single rule that supports your challenge to how I presented Firearms Proficiency beyond your personal houserules.
Now, when I talked about excluding ranged/melee, I pointed out that the feats don't do that when they're proficiency feats. I also discussed how it is that proficiency feats assign groupings, which the game itself talks about; specifically, the groupings of Simple, Martial, Exotic, Firearms, Unarmed, Natural Weapon, Improvised, and Ray. Note that one of those is a spell and two of them are almost treated as the same.
As for what can and cannot be in a subset? That is stated by the classifications given by the feats that have proficiency in the titleNope! There is no president that you seem to be trying to make. They can give as much as a whole group or as little as one weapon. You are making the distinction of subsets, not the feats. All they say is that being able to use a weapon 'normally', without non-proficiency minuses, IS proficiency. Anything beyond that was added by you.
What? Some feats need a single weapon proficiency (weapon focus) and some need a group(Squire and proficient with all martial weapons). Not getting point.
Not getting this either. How does the listings affect being proficient?
And now you're contradicting the rules text as written. Here's the text from one of the proficiency feats:
"Simple Weapon Proficiency (Combat)
You are trained in the use of basic weapons.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with simple weapons without penalty.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat."
Now, where are simple weapons defined? In the equipment section. Here's the definition:
"Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large)."
Now, where is the evidence that improvised weapons are a different category?
"Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object."
So the precedent not only exists, but is both integral to how the proficiency system works and key for your argument to have any relevance to the game at all.
As for how that is key: Go back and read the part about interlocking categories. If a weapon is listed as simple, it needs Simple Weapon Proficiency. Martial weapons need Martial Weapon Proficiency. Exotic Weapons need Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Firearms are special in that they get their own proficiency feat. That's pretty much rules as written.
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I just want to reiterate something that ought to be very telling.
James Jacobs, the Creative Director for Paizo, says:
Dear James Jacobs:
True or false? Monks of the empty hand take a -4 penalty to attacks when wielding improvised weapons.The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?
(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)
Basically, it looks like he is saying that, hey, they screwed up the wording here, and that the Monk of the Empty Hand is proficient with improvised weapons and that Catch Off-Guard does the same thing. This seems pretty clear to me that Catch Off-Guard grants proficiency with improvised weapons.
The problem is that James Jacobs is not the final authority for rules questions which is why I didn't just take that as fact. Though based on how he worded it (basically "we screwed up"), it sounds like he's pretty confident of his answer.
I have only really asked this here, hoping to get an official response, due to the many voices who don't agree, who would end up telling me my character is not legal for play (in PFS.)
MagusJanus, you seem to have missed the point really. While you don't have feats that explicitly mention the work proficiency in them, we DO have feats that grant the exact same thing with the exact same wording as the proficiency feats grant. I give MUCH more weight to actual rules text than some mystery pattern you seem to see in the existing proficiency feats.
All you've proves in all that text in your last post is that weapons you aren't proficient in take a -4 to hit. That and different weapons need different feats for you to gain proficiency in them. Nothing in all that proves that Catch Off-Guard isn't one of those feats.