Hope everyone is having a safe and enjoyable weekend!
I just a few days ago, created a Discord server for RPG Talk. No expectation or pressure.
Very informal chat around topics like roll-vs-role-play and possible monetization (capitalist pig, I admit it!). Virtual Table Tops experiences (I've never really used, very curious about) or whatever...
All that I ask is pretty much commonsensical... respect others, their experiences, struggles and ideas.
I'm inviting folks from my current Paizo campaigns.
Grappled...
Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.
Grappled...
Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting) or lose the spell.
That (^^ ABOVE ^^) is from the Grappled Condition entry.
From Concentration Checks and Casting Spells - Grappled or Pinned
Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.
Seems the latter is the more recent/updated entry. The former was not changed to match as yet.
So there is ambiguity.
EDIT: ignore this!
But, the other thing that crossed my mind is... Sequence of Events.
Anna fails Reflex Save... is Grappled (not pinned).
Anna casts Ray of Frost (passes concentration for being grappled)... which opens her up to an Attack of Opportunity from the Mimic (while she's grappled - Dex/AC penalties, etc...)
Damage taken is added to a second Concentration Check needed to not lose the spell.
Except that:
Anna fails Reflex save, is Grappled.
Anna beats Mimic in Initiative, Mimic is flat-footed.
Anna casts Ray of Frost, passes concentration check.
Ray hits, but no AoO because Mimic is flat-footed.
Sneak attack!!
Ray hits, but no AoO because Mimic is flat-footed.
...and has the "grappled" condition (also, no AoO) since it's a participant in the love-fest.
In other news... in another game, my character just rolled their 3rd... Nat 1 on d20 (in a row)... 8000:1 odds?
The irony of course is they're using a sniper rifle. LOL!
I was wandering about the whole grapple thing myself. Is stuck the same as grappled? Can you initiate a grapple while flat footed? The mimmics were certainly aware of us and could have gotten a surprise round easily enough. So I am not sure if indeed Anna is grappled because I was not sure you can passively grapple someone while flat footed. Also I am not at all sure the creature was flat footed as its grapple might have been treated like a surprise round. Strange sequence.
I personally believe the game would be better off with simpler grapple rules or none at all.
The mimic grapple is automatic on touch. While normally you have to grab someone to grapple them, the mimic grapple with the glue on its body. That is why you get a reflex to avoid it compare to the normal grapple rule.
The thing is, however, is that the rules has nothing about being stuck, so to avoid more rules, I'm guessing they went with the grapple rule.
Mimics are playing MONK-ey in the middle with Danica!
"Paper-Tank" is doing her job. Let's hope she doesn't get torn to shreds.
Mimics are playing MONK-ey in the middle with Danica!
Good one. I LOL.
Hi Rannik, I can't remember if we are allowing 3rd Party materials.
Honestly, I think this should be just the way it is... Ranged Flanking.
But, I'd spend a Feat to get it.
Ranged Flank by 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming <<< Link
For example, the current positions on the combat map.
Thanks!
I can't seem to post a saving throw.
I can't seem to post a saving throw.
No worries!!! You failed. :-P
Sigh. I feel like I am making sound judgements and stating unquestionable facts about the situation we are in with the vampires vs the Whispering Way. Tolvan has clearly stated that once we defeat the Way he will come back here to take care of ALL the vampires. There are multiple plot hook reasons to Fight the Way now and not fight both sides. I guess I am tired of stating then in RP. The Vampires have control of the city and the guard. The can help us against the Way in the short term and the long I think. If we fight them too we risk being wanted in the city and unable to operate at all in the open. And I think we are on the clock in that eventually enough vampire bodies will be delivered that something bad will happen. Tolvan has asked that we finish searching this basement before we decide on anything. Why is that unreasonable? No one even responded to that. We are solving a mystery and not seeking vengeance for all past wrongs from all vampires. Let's collect what data we can and then make our decisions,. Please?.
Work is killing me right now. I am literally working over double shifts and there is no end in sight. I do not want my games to stress me too.
Okay, I'm not crazy about the inter-party debates either, but it's frustrating from Anna's perspective for a few reasons:
1. The vampires are NOT OUR ALLIES. I might be mostly at fault for causing this, and I'm sorry. But when the negotiations broke down with the elder vampires, it was clear. They're not our allies. Doing their bidding just makes us look like chumps.
2. Because of the screwed-up alliance, I don't think we're going to get any help from the guards -- but I don't think we were going to get any help anyway. Forget about them.
3. I agree the Whispering Way is the immediate threat, but come on. Why don't we kill these already dead vamps? This thought of us "betraying our allies" is just ridiculous. If Tolvan is serious about coming back to wipe out all the vamps in Caliphas, why not get rid of these right now? They're notoriously hard to kill, so why look the gift horse in the mouth?
4. I am 100% in favor of continuing to search through the rooms in this basement. Hopefully there will be clues to a clear target to our next move.
It feels to me that Anna's just being ignored (and I admit she's the one with the loudest voice in this game). Throw her this bone. Let's kill the vamps and we can blame it on the Whispering Way.
"Huh? Oh, there were captured vampires? No, I swear they were dead when we got here."
I already suggesting killing these vampires. I just recommended we finish exploring the basement first.
I never said the guards will help us. But the sure can hinder us.
Either way we need to choose a single front or two fronts. Seems a no brainer to me.
I am headed out to Dragon Con tomorrow afternoon for some much needed down time. Might not be available til next Tuesday.
I knew from first reading that this part of the aventure would create some moral and ethical problems for some characters. The author of the book seemed to have though that the old phrase the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Being a player, I would more than likely agreed with Anna's position on this.
As a GM however, I can see what they wanted to create here. But by doing so, they create a situation where the PCs could spend a lot of time trying to solve the problem with the city. In a way, this could easily be a second adventure completely.
So my advise here is, don't worry too much about the elder vampires. They are patient and playing the long game. Losing a few random henchmen isn't going to make them move quickly.
The only issue with that is... The lawful characters agreed to help the Elders... so going back on that isn't good.
Not to meta, but... it's AP vs sandbox.
I find it an interesting twist that it's not there lawful characters that had the issue with aiding the Elders.
From an RP pov I think its logic vs emotion, and that is not hurt by each player's view of situation. Tolvan is often too logical and forgets to feel. Anna reminds him of that sometimes.
I do worry that if we outright fight the elders that the Way could auto-win or that it will be come much more difficult for us to succeed. That might be me as a player wanting to "win" though.
It would have been nice if you had mentioned the "Losing a few random henchmen " thing before Tolvan used the nuclear option and mentioned the wolfbite. lol. But I think his point is made more valid by these three not being in the book. How long have they been vampires? Did they choose this for themselves? Are they victims? In the almost Lawful setup these vampires "seem" to live under have they even killed, or even taken from an unwilling person?
Still, we can't leave them behind to be harvested later. Now that we know that someone/something working for the way needs them. Is there a way to un-vampire someone?
On the other other other hand... I see the situation as The Way has been slowly gaining strength/advantage vs the Elders.
And, as the heroes enter the scene (play the AP) the balance has become even or in favor of the Way.
Essentially, if we weaken the Elders (destroying these vamps, as example) or not help them (choose not to choose)... The Way wins.
"...If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..." - RUSH, Freewill
I just reread the full lyrics, it's amazingly apropos.
The only issue with that is... The lawful characters agreed to help the Elders... so going back on that isn't good.
Not to meta, but... it's AP vs sandbox.
I find it an interesting twist that it's not there lawful characters that had the issue with aiding the Elders.
From my point the view, the negociation failed to achieve an agreement, therefore the lawfull character aren't bound to anything.... unless they want to.
From my point the view, the negociation failed to achieve an agreement, therefore the lawfull character aren't bound to anything.... unless they want to.The only issue with that is... The lawful characters agreed to help the Elders... so going back on that isn't good.
Not to meta, but... it's AP vs sandbox.
I find it an interesting twist that it's not there lawful characters that had the issue with aiding the Elders.
You're right, it went sideways... but, it did impart an understanding of the current situation. So, being Good (save lives, reduce suffering) and Lawful (the lives/good of the many, over the few)... we'd come to the same effect.
It's not wise to do anything that would weaken the Elders' faction while the threat of The Way is real, powerful and imminent.
I understand the situation. Here's the thing that is offending Anna to her core:
The elder vamps are using us.
They're evil. They're parasites on society, literally and figuratively feeding on the misery and desperation of others.
This one threat to their existence, and they don't even ask us to help. They don't offer to pay. No, they expect us to help because it's the Way and they're the bigger threat to the world
Yeah, negotiations broke down and it's possible that they were going to throw a bit of level-appropriate treasure our way if we pretended we were all happy about the arrangement.
The thing that has Anna steamed about some of the party members is that they're talking and acting like we did make some arrangement. Or, that they're seemingly okay with the vampires continuing to do their thing because the Way just happens to be a more exciting form of evil.
If the party at least shared Anna's hate toward the situation, that'd be one thing. But she's constantly attacked for being "emotional." That she's failing to see the "logic" in supporting the status quo for the time being.
I, as a player, understand the need to follow the AP's structure. I get it that it's not written to include a full-on assault on the vampire aristocracy in Caliphas. As much as Anna wants to take the fight to them, I understand the reasons we can't.
But I want to be true to Anna's character. She's going to gripe. She's pissed, and she's going to show it. Every time she opens her mouth, it's going to include some pithy remark about the situation and how much she hates it. But her doing that is not an invitation to scrap the campaign and go off and do something different.
So, please. Let her be pissed. She'll feel a lot better if the others are pissed along with her. But every time her feelings on the subject are shut down, ignored, or belittled, it's going to make her dig in her heels that much harder.
My fault, I guess, for making such a strong-willed character.
But is that a solution for going forward? Can we let her complain, but go ahead and tackle the AP as it comes?
She can be pissed... I'm pretty sure they all are.
Andjela just has Worldwound game-face on.
Given her origin and lineage, she doesn't like the vampire establishment, but she feels she understands them, what they are about.
These newcomer Way dudes, they are on the corner of bat shit and nuckin' futts!
I am fine with Anna being pissed. I just don't want Anna's player pissed. :)
The point that there was no agreement is a good one. Some of my reasoning was not considering that. If there is no reasonable way to un-vampire someone then I think Tolvan will want to kill (put down) the three we have in the basement.
The reasoning Tolvan have Anna for not killing them... seems irrespective of agreement. His logic still stands. Why kill them?
Anna, you have no idea if these three vampires chose to be what they are. Nor do you know that any of them have ever taken another life. Did you choose to be a werewolf when you bit me? I maintain we do not know enough of these three to condemn them.
The problem is, they're probably just window-dressing. Scenery showing what the Way is up to. But that's metagame knowledge.
The real problem is that once the stake is removed to find out if they're truly misunderstood, the stake can't go back in. They poof away, into the floor, and they're another vampire on the loose.
Despite Tolvan's low blow about the werewolf bite, I say we kill them for good.
The only way to un-vampire someone would be to kill the vampire them use resurrect of more powerful spell to bring back the person to life. Compare to contraction lycanthropie, vampirism isn't a disease/curse that can be cure. The person actually die and an undead creature was created.
I think I agree with Anna. Tolvan will loose sleep over it but he is not willing to leave them in their staked state to be retrieved for use by the Way. Hmm. We could release them in a gesture of cooperation with the elders?. I know how Anna feels about that though.
So we either end them or release them with the hope that their release will be seen as good faith from the elders. But that puts them back on the roll of available vampires to be harvested.
These guys are tough. If we take them down I bet they go gaseous and get away. Do we (Anna) need to try to stake them?
I'm down to try it, but what does that look like, rules-wise?
Sneak attack? Grapple and pin? Confirmed crit with a stake?
Maybe just a high AC like a called shot? I am not sure.
Not for everyone, but... some Nostalgia!
Any of you remember (or want to rekindle) the pain of Original Dungeons and Dragons, circa 1974 before Basic D&D (but, after Chain Mail). They sometimes call it 0e (zero edition).
I got on a site and they were recruiting...
Char Gen is 3d6 six times, straight down the line. No rerolls, keep 1's and no swapping.
I ended up with STR 15/INT 13/WIS 17/CON 5/DEX 9/CHA 11... they allowed Elf Fighter/Magic-User/Cleric HP 4 - (can only play one class at a time, until you level in each... then you're effectively multi-class). But, XP is split 3 ways... so it will take forever.
Starting with Cleric - so picking gear amounts to all the armor (plate)/shield/helm/blunt weapon you can muster and a wooden holy symbol. The classic 10' pole and 50' rope and some rations, spikes, mallot, etc...
No spells at 1st Level. WIS 17 does NOTHING except +10% Cleric XP (after split).
First time I'm encountering it... I always had it in my head that they would not be permanent (no save next day), but they still affected her...
But, I guess you're right. Thanks!
Not sure I knew that either. Nice. And you are officially promoted to front line vampire fighter. :)
That 28 To Hit, should be a 30 then. Same as last time.
OMG. Sorry guys, specially for missing on the combat. Work is driving me nuts. I kind of envisioning Danica having one of those moments where the character twitching due to MMORPG connection issues. (you guys ever play those games.... Everquest II?)
I hate that this continues to be a big enough problem that it seems to be bogging us down. Tolvan is against any action that will show the populous of the city, and especially the guards, that we are fighting vampires. Dragging vampires out into a busy street is not in the plans for him, unless it's the only way.
I do not recall if our exit is in to a dead end ally or a private court or a busy corner. Also, if these "coffins" are stone we will not be dragging them anywhere. That means we need to open/remove the lid and deal with the creature inside. I am not sure if will be dormant or might have already healed enough to attack again.
I want to point out that we have not fully explored the building either. Might still be threats about.
Wouldn't an arrow or a crossbow bolt suffice as a wooden stake if we break off the metal tip?
Part of it is we're not sure the impact of our actions or inactions... another part is very polarized character views.
So these are vampires or uber vampires (against the establishment)?
A middle ground can be reached here. Plunging a stake in their heart will render them helpless. Stakes aren't hard to make. There are crates in the basement, just need to pull a plank off a crate, sharpen it and bingo, one genuine stake.
Doing this will allow you to keep exploring/searching the rest of the place without having to worry about those vampires. Then once you are done, you can decide what to do with the vampires.
Hey, what about dumping the vamps in that pocket dimension that Tolvan has. When we are done with them we can pull them out somewhere else.... preferably in the fields under the bright sun.
Rope Trick? I wish that would work but it's stationary.
Vamps or anti-Vamps?
Test...
Anyone use the semi-colon notation between dice expressions?
I always do.
I am traveling starting tomorrow and will have limited posting time for about 15 days. Next week (visiting family) will not be as limiting as the following week (taking a 6 day class with long hours). Please bot me if you need to.