Please check in here, and list your information, which will speed your chronicles and reporting at the end.
Character Name:
Player Name:
PFS#:
Faction:
Perception:
Initiative:
Day Job (if any): Go ahead and roll it.
Also, this is Part 3 of Shades of Ice. If you haven't played parts 1 & 2, please let me know. Or, if you have played but with a different character, that might be useful too.
We will try to keep a decent pace on this one, but at least post daily on weekdays and once on weekends. I know there is a special starting soon, but I opted out of it this time, so that won't slow me down.
And as always, feel free to ask questions at any time!
Petrok Kaznikh
Justin Shuttleworth
#184087-3
Dark Archive
Int: +2
*edit* Perception: +5
Day Job: Craft Tattoo
Haven't played part one or two. GM'd part one and applied the chronicle sheet to this character. Currently GM'ng part II (will apply the chronicle to another character)
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Chacter Name: Yoshi Masaso
Player: B Viggers
FPS#: 100387-10
Faction:Dark Archive
Perception: +8
initiative: +3
Day job: (1gp) <- if reroll is available at the end, I'll use that with take ten for 10+4+3=17 (10gp)
I'll likely make some purchases... I'm guessing warm furs (cold weather outfit) will be top of that list.
Sure - feel free to list any purchases here as you make them. And yes, protection from the cold is highly recommended.
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Character Name: Feybella
Player Name: CariMac
PFS#: 110249-1
Faction: Scarab Sages
Perception: +9
Initiative: +2
Day Job (if any): None
Wolfie Animal Companion:
Perception +6
Initiative: +3, but I'm fine with him going on mine.
I have not played or GM'ed either part 1 or part 2.
Cold Weather Outfit 8 GP
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purchase:
Cold weather outfit 8gp
winter blanket 5sp
scroll tube 1gp
sealing wax 1gp
scroll of endure elements 25gp
(note placed my existing explorers outfit on my camel and replaced my free clothes with the cold weather outfit. note: I am not bringing the camel on this scenario {it can kick it in Absalom or somewhere warm}.)
OK, looks like we are about ready.
Petrok, can you link to a character sheet or put the info in your profile? I don't currently see it anywhere (or missed it).
Spackle, I think you may need to update yours. Are you level 2 or 3?
Just FYI, I will get us started shortly, but then I will be out for the next two days, so we may get off to a slower than normal start.
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OK, looks like we are about ready.
Petrok, can you link to a character sheet or put the info in your profile? I don't currently see it anywhere (or missed it).
Spackle, I think you may need to update yours. Are you level 2 or 3?
Just FYI, I will get us started shortly, but then I will be out for the next two days, so we may get off to a slower than normal start.
Ok I put often used abilities and stats on my headers and provided a link to a drive folder with his character sheet, ability descriptions, ect.., I can also scan and drop his chronicle sheets, and inventory tracking sheets in the same folder. If you use herolab I can send you his portfolio via email. Let me know if you want/need anything else.
*edit* forgot to mention...his wand of cure lt. only 16 charges left (tracked in my herolab por and inventory tracking sheets but not on the pdf) and I've also used 1 charge of my wand of protect from evil...|
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Should the newcomers have some sort of connected history? At least a very recent one. To explain how we all got to be in the group. Something like we were all talking in a tavern in Whitethrone about looking for adventure, money, work, etc.?
I'm open to literally anything.
Since we're already in the Realms of the Mammoth Lords I'd like to go under the assumption. I was sent to meet the rest of group somewhere near the Irrisen boarder (whether or not you're coming from Irrisen.) I was sent to guide you because I grew up in these lands. But, I'm far from a historian. I can track and navigate through the familiar harshness of the Realms of the Mammoth Lords. But, being 1/2 Orc..I was an outcast in my own land ...so I am far from an expert on local traditions, peoples(tribes), and customs.
In summary I'm a local Pathfinder sent with the rest of you because I grew-up in these lands. Not because I'm an expert on our mission.
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Character: Solstice Rain
Player: Miteke
PFS#: 141936-8
Faction: Sov Court
Perception: +0
Initiative: +8
Perform, Sing: 25
Hmmm. Yes, Solstice will purchase a Cold-weather outfit, (8 gp, 7 lbs), which she normally keeps on her pack pony but will be worn during any outdoor traveling in the wasteland.
Starting Fame: 14
Starting PP: 9
Starting XP: 7
Starting Wealth: 1,236.75 (leaving 1228.75 so far)
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FYI GM..:My character has a familiar.(a cute little weasel named ember with glowing coal eyes and burnt umber colored fur) I do not use him to make attacks and or cast healing touch spells and 99% of the time he stays on my person tucked warm somewhere within my garb. However, since I have chosen the flame spirit animal, it makes Ember, immune to fire but, vulnerable to cold.
Please, let me know if you'll require separate Fortitude checks for my familiar to resist the effects of the cold environment.
Sure, he will need to make checks as well. So endure elements may be best.
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OK I'll cast endure elements everyday on ember. As for myself I'll make survival checks when needed. If It becomes an issue I may reserve 2 1st level spots (1 each for myself and my familiar) for endure elements. If I make my survival check I'll have a +15 modifier to resist non-lethal from cold weather
( +5 cold weather outfit, +2 survival, +3 base fort, +1 con mod., +4 endurance)
So basically while the weather remains above 0 deg. I only fail on a nat 1. At night when cold drops to below 0 deg. I'll be stationary so my survival check (assuming I make it), shoots up to +4 making my total modifier +17. This means the first 4hrs of rest I cannot fail on anything but a natural 1, 5th hr 2&1, 6th hr. 3-1, ect...
By using Binominal distribution, we can cut the 8 rolls required; down to one or two probability numbers (there's approximately 63% chance I will fail at least one roll over the coarse of a night.) So in theory, you could just assign me one roll for each night. If I miss the assigned DC (I make a DC:29 40% of the time), by more than 5; I'd take 2d6 non-lethal instead of 1d6 (representing 2 failed rolls). If I fail to make my survival check before rest, nothing need be done because, the DC becomes more difficult without my added bonuses.
I've used this method with my own group, in my Giant Slayer campaign and it greatly speeds along play while remaining reasonably true to the laws of probability. Let me know how you want to adjudicate this. I'm happy to abide with anyway you'd like to handle it.
My mind is swimming in freezing numbers... I went through all the rules and all the characters gear and sheets that I could find.
An example of a cold-weather check is here. My understanding is that hour 1 is DC 15, hour 2 DC 16, etc. During the day, I don't think you want to use your survival skill, unless your speed is somehow twice that of the others. First, it will effectively double the number of checks everyone has to make, but more importantly, you are racing against a Shadow Lodge group, who will easily outdistance you if you are at half-speed. If you stop for the night, I think it is fine, but I want to make sure you really want to use it while travelling. Also note that the survival bonus might stack with cold-weather gear, but not the furs, so half your party won't draw any benefit from it at all (at present).
(+6 Fort)
(+3 Fort +2 Furs)
(+7 Fort +2 Furs)
(+4 Fort +5 CWO +4 Endurance) +4 Stationary
(auto-succeed Endure Elements)
(+2 Fort +5 CWO)
(+7 Fort +7 CWO&Furs)
(+5 Fort +7 CWO&Furs)
In this case, Damiel would take non-lethal damage in the first hour, and Feybella .
Does everyone concur that this is correct?
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Well I do have a speed of 40 and unless the gnome has a feat or a mount he's at 20..But again that's up to you (my idea is a convey never moves faster than the slowest ship).. Also cold weather and non-lethal dmg. Is something of a debate 0deg-40deg...It states something to the effect that: unprotected characters must make a survival check every hour. Many GM's consider cold weather gear enough in this environment, to be considered protected (thus not requiring a check) However, in my game I require at least one check for the whole day unless my group is moving at half speed or less (being careful not to step in thinly frozen ponds or fall in snow banks ect..)
This all depends on your interpretation of what it means to be protected. here's a link in case you want to review to make your rulling
Environmental rules.
My go to example here is: could you wear a ski Jacket all day in 39 deg. weather without getting hypothermia? If a GM rules that cold weather gear is not enough the answer has got to be no... per RAW..about 30% of the time you'd be frostbite or have hypothermia. I'm thinking this rule needs to be clarified as to what, protected means.
Because even though I do have a class that can just spam endure elements I'd feel a little cheated if I were just a fighter with high survival but every time it snowed, and I took a hike, I had a high % chance of getting frost bite. That just doesn't translate to rational thinking ( I know, I know, neither do fireballs or fairy's). I've hunted and fished in sub zero weather all my life, with nothing more than a Parka, long underwear, and a good pair of boots. Never once frost bit and we'd stay out all day..
Ok I'm officially off the soap box...sorry for the rant but, rthis really is one of those odd rules in Pathfinder that, doesn't translate well to factual physics. I've dealt with these rules (which are a carry over from the srd) in two separate campaigns in the last 10 years and have found them wanting. That's why I figured out the Binominal % for minimizing rolls my last campaign. As always I will defer to GM's ruling
Long story short I believe this rule punishes classes/groups that don't have access to endure elements or similar magic. It just is not in line with reality. I mean we've climbed Everest and hiked to both the North and south Poles without incident in some cases. And the rules of Pathfinder account for extreme cold fairly well bellow 0 deg...But, 0-40 deg.? Your trying to sell to me I'll get frost bit shoveling snow or building a snowman unless I run back to the house every couple hours? Not buying bad rule Pathfinder..fix it.
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My take is that so long as the rules make sense, and apply equally to NPCs and party that is fine.
I tend to agree the "unprotected" bit is important here. Do the Khellid who live up here, or the Aspis we follow for that matter, have to make fortitude saves every hour? Especially with the increasing DC during the day, it gets almost impossible to make the saves by day end.
That isn't a biggie if we can recover the NL damage resting overnight by a fire. And as we are a upper tier group anyway that might not be massive for us. However how would a group of level 1s survive this without endure elements, but having taken sensible precautions?
Yoshi is reasonably hardly, (base fort +5) and has taken all the mundane precautions he can (total bonus of +12)
Going for an hour he is likely fine (10% chance of taking NL damage)
By the end of a long day (8 hours) the DC will be up to 22, so he will be having at least a 50% chance of taking NL damage. It is the sheer volume of checks that is likely to cause us problems. 8 checks at an average of 30% chance of failure is 2.4 failed checks. For maybe 8 or 9 points of NL damage.
Providing we can rest and recover overnight that seems like a reasonable kind of a stress to put on a character for walking 8 hours over the ice. And we do have some healing available. But then Yoshi is wrapped up to the hilt and has one of the better fort saves in the group.
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I'm by no means even adept at Pathfinders survival rules, but the NL damage makes sense. I think it's less frost bite (sounding more like real, lethal damage) and more overall fatigue and stress on the body. The harsh conditions mixed with thin air is going to take a toll on anyone IRL. No matter how many layers you've put on. It'd be hard for anyone to hike miles and miles through tough terrain in sub zero temperatures and be unfazed by the end of the day.
Take Damiel for example. He is by no means conditioned for this type of weather and terrain. He would be lucky to make a 10 hour hike for one day, let alone multiple days. I think the NL damage throughout the day makes up for the ability to basically reset the next morning. Something a person IRL couldn't do. Days of traveling would get harder and harder with every morning.
In short I agree with Yoshi, but I'm okay with whatever system doesn't get Damiel killed before we arrive.
Yoshi you're not wrong to think you'll take damage everyday. The math just doesn't lie. Your point about low tier characters is not lost either. If a GM rules that there is no mundane means of being "protected " from the cold this is a tpk adventure at that tier. (Unless they buy a wand of endure elements). The math just says so.... they will either pass out along the way from non lethal and freeze to death. Or if they do manage to make it to an encounter zone they'll be so close to unconscious, that their enemies only need to blow to knock them over. #cold weather clothing = protected ... believe!
By the way I feel sorry for all the Carabo herds and wolf packs in this winter wonderland. As soon as the weather drops to 40 dog their entire species is wiped out within a few days because of lack of endure elements. Or are animal natural furs considered somehow "protected" while furs/ cold weather gear other races adorn are not protected? The true miracle of nature is how these animal species somehow spotaniously repopulate after some light snow showers wiped them out. Poor Wolfe doesn't have a chance. Pathfinder wolves half to make fort checks every hour to live in their native environment.
I'm by no means even adept at Pathfinders survival rules, but the NL damage makes sense. I think it's less frost bite (sounding more like real, lethal damage) and more overall fatigue and stress on the body. The harsh conditions mixed with thin air is going to take a toll on anyone IRL. No matter how many layers you've put on. It'd be hard for anyone to hike miles and miles through tough terrain in sub zero temperatures and be unfazed by the end of the day.
Take Damiel for example. He is by no means conditioned for this type of weather and terrain. He would be lucky to make a 10 hour hike for one day, let alone multiple days. I think the NL damage throughout the day makes up for the ability to basically reset the next morning. Something a person IRL couldn't do. Days of traveling would get harder and harder with every morning.
In short I agree with Yoshi, but I'm okay with whatever system doesn't get Damiel killed before we arrive.
I don't think Yoshi thought the rules were reasonable: he only stated that it was reasonable to tax us if you'd let us recover ALL non lethal by days end. I would respectfully disagree with this. Because, it just doesn't pass practically lines of thinking. I used to work on a ski resort when I was in my early 20s. I worked outside all day (10 hrs) with 1 45 min lunch break. My attire was snow boots, gloves, blue jeans, long underwear, and a Parka. I worked all day 5 days a week in temperatures running from 32-0 deg. Not once did I pass out, go to the hospital or have any type of frostbite. Now if I a pudgy 20 something can work a parking lot at 9000ft in freezing temperatures all day long... isn't it reasonable to assume my heroic fantasy avatar is at least equal to the challenge I could go out and do now?
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My line of thinking was it's not the cold necessarily that's causing the damage, but the exertion in the cold. The same way heat effects a soldier in full gear if he walked at a brisk pace for 10 hours. Hikers pass out from cold exhaustion all the time. I was putting it on par with that. And how that could be represented.
I'm not saying the damage isn't a little high, I just see the justification of some kind of damage taken from the journey. But I don't know that a crew of level 1's should be capable of trekking through what we are now. (As I imagine it) Fighting capabilities aren't the only thing increasing as you gain level, it's also survivability.
Put simply, this adventure is a death trap for tier 1-2 if they don't have access to endure elements and/or the GM rules that cold weather clothes don't offer protection. If the GM stuck to these strict rulings, the math doesn't support the PC's surviving a large majority of the time. I should you the math already. My character with a potential of +17! In bonuses still only has a 40% chance of making any single 8hr period without taking at least some damage. At a mere +11 bonus that plummets to like 17-18% with a chance of taking 2d6 non leathal around 65% and 3d6 non leathal about 30%.... That means every day at least one of your party members is going to take 3d6 non Lethal at 1st level, 2 more will take 2d6 and the last has a 1-6 chance of avoiding damage. Hope you brought blackfire clay! Cause rules state you can't heal non lethal dmg. Caused by cold unless you're in a warm environment! So no channeling won't work. And neither will casting endure elements after the fact.
So ur beat up, you had to drag your wizard who took 9 NL in the cold. The barbarian found a cave with his survival check, but now you gotta do 10 more fort. Checks to make it through the night! But don't worry, it's a heroic end .. died in the snow while dressed in freaking useless gear because in a 24hr period my D.C. Is 39 ! ( Do the math and you'll see how ridiculous this gets)
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But this is part three of the series. Should there even be a tier 1-2 here at the point? If it's assumed the adventurers have run the first two surely it's implying these characters are level 3-4 right?
I also agree cold weather outfit should serve as protected, since nothing in the descriptor mentions magic specifically. And the temperature really isn't that cold. Like I said I understand the damage if it involved exerting the characters through hiking with full gear, but not if they're sitting still or using pack animals.
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You could still be first level easily. Though to be fair, you would hit level 2 at the end of this, and would have a PP for a wand of endure cold.
On the argument against cold weather gear counting as "protected" it is noted in the description that
This outfit grants a +5 circumstance bonus on Fortitude saving throws against exposure to cold weather.
Which kind of implies it doesn't make you immune. Also 4gp for complete immunity to low level environmental cold seems pretty generous. Of course maybe the idea is it makes you immune to the 0F temperature, and then provides the bonus against the sub zero saves which are even worse.
But this is part three of the series. Should there even be a tier 1-2 here at the point? If it's assumed the adventurers have run the first two surely it's implying these characters are level 3-4 right?
I also agree cold weather outfit should serve as protected, since nothing in the descriptor mentions magic specifically. And the temperature really isn't that cold. Like I said I understand the damage if it involved exerting the characters through hiking with full gear, but not if they're sitting still or using pack animals.
Answer 1. This scenario is tiers 1-5..(if a character started part 1 as a first level new character, moving on completing part 2, they'd have 2 xp starting this adventure aka: 1st level. )
Answer 2. there are already rules for encumbrance and overland travel it falls under the forced march section of the rules. By saying the cold isn't what is getting us but the extra exertion that cold causes you bring into effect a double condition that effectively causes your character to automatically be exhausted as soon as he/she marches more than 8hrs in breezy weather (39 deg. is normal spring time weather in many places) movement So by penalizing us for walking in the cold your effectively penalizing us twice for the same thing.
Answer 3: under the assumption that nothing but heated shelter constitutes the "protected" condition that is so ill defined in the cold weather rules...how do any animals that don't have the cold subtype live in these arctic conditions at all? The Math is crazy unlikely even a creature with a con. of 25 and the endurance feat could survive more than a couple of days without some kind of cold DR. (assuming the creature doesn't go home to a heated cave to recover) So how could whole herds and packs of animals survive?
This is simply a broken rule by nature and a strict interpretation of cold weather gear makes it untenable.. It then becomes a true fantasy world where only wizards and magical creatures can survive weather conditions you and I could bear quite easily with a warm coat and ear muffs.
Sorry Damiel...
I'm am so done with this topic. I'll wait till the GM rules. If he rules that cold weather gear is not protective, I'll just be thankful I have a class that can remember endure elements and use the remainder of my resources to the best of my ability to help the party. There's really nothing else to say on the manor on this thread. I may bring it up on a rules thread though in order for Bulman, Jacobs, or a senor designer to give an official ruling on this.
I just always assumed it was a common assumption among GMs that cold weather gear counted as protected. The thread I presented earlier shows my assumption was in error. My only thought is that a lot of these GM's grew up in California or Hawaii. Because, I personally just can't wrap my head around requiring a fort. save every hour outdoors while dressed in a Parka at 35 or even 25 degrees makes sense to anyone who has ever spent time in a colder climate.
Before reading all of the rules and threads today, I would have simply hand waved this as last night as you had cold weather gear or endure elements. But a few things kept nagging at me.
- The scenario sort of makes a big point of highlighting the cold and danger of simply traveling. That leads me to believe cold weather gear isn't sufficient protection - if it were, I think it would simply say "unless the characters have cold weather gear"
- Regarding those of you noting your experience in cold, I think there is definitely a big difference between 0F and 40F. I don't think anything above freezing should require a check. But keep in king that medieval cold weather gear is not likely to be equivalent to jeans, thermal underwear and parkas. Technology has come a long way for comfort here. I live in an area where 19F is fairly common, and 20-30 minutes in basic heavy coat hat and scarf can still make you miserable, especially if you are hiking across a field and the wind is blowing. My nose hair freezes, face dries and cracks and gets windburns, etc. I have no problems accepting the NL damage part of this.
- I do sort of have a problem with a natural 1 failure, because if you really have the gear, fortitude, etc, then I don't see the need for it. But as this is PFS, I don't get to house rule it.
- Protected, I think, means shelter. If you weren't in a hurry, you could take breaks and set up tents, etc to get some reprieve and heal up.
- Animals are a non-issue for me. Some are definitely more suited for th tundra, so I would assume they have higher constitution; endurance, natural fur and cold weather gear, survival skills, etc. plus, most don't hike day in and day out - they do find shelter and many sleep a lot. Weasels could be daily die from cold weather, as cats and dogs do around here. I think the rules are a little over simplified, but if you change the 40 set to 20, it all makes a bit more sense.
- I have played a number of cold and hot scenarios, and usually just get endure elements to avoid the hassle. In fact, many of many my characters carry a wand, second purchase after CLW. So I admit, I haven't spent a lot of time with these before today.
- Regarding 1st level characters - yah, hit points don't really always make a lot of sense. Without endure elements, I don't see how a party of level 1s could survive page one of this scenario. I think the real problem is the 1d6. 6 damage from an hour of cold is crazy. If it were up to me, it would probably be 1d2 or even just 1 Con dog instead.
I typed all that on my phone, so forgive the lack of editing....
This will be interesting to see how it plays out. *edit* it is interesting to note; that cold weather gear makes no mechanical differental from 40deg - neg 20deg . The 0 degree boarder then only becomes relevant if you're not wearing cold weather gear.Anyway, thx for the time and thought on the ruling GM. It's not an easy job and you can't please all the people all the time. Thank you for addressing my concerns anyway.
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Aye lass. 'M okay with that. Been helped out by plenty o' others. Gotsta pay it back (er forward, whatever it be).
As far as the movement rate, are there rules for doubling up on a mount (Wolfie) or riding on the shoulders of some of these huge specimens? (I'm look at you guys, Sunshine and Stone-thighs!!)
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Hey all, I just opened up a thread in the FAQ forums about the question I had regarding cold weather gear.
My goal is to get some clarification (one way or another) on what the word protected means in the environmental rules regarding cold weather damage.
I'm looking for nothing less than a formal ruling on this matter. To be transparent and very forward:. I being a GM myself, will always stand by a GM's ruling and no mater the outcome of my FAQ thread, I intend to follow our GM's ruling until the completion of this game. I appreciate that he gave a thoughtful and articulate response and then made a decision. Even though I do not agree with his decision, I respect the process and the work he put in to making his decision.
So please, please understand I am in no way trying to undermine his authority. The fact of the mater is that I feel the rule as interpreted by most GM's is way to lethal to low level groups and in no way representative of any reality we know to be true. My motivation for this thread is because I plan on running this same adventure for several tier one characters shortly after our group wraps up this one. (sorry no slots it's for my regular PFS PbP group) If there is anyway I can get this rule clarified before we begin play...I'd be a happy camper.
So what I'm asking all of you is this: please no mater what side of the debate you stand on..go to this cold weather debateThread and offer what you can. If you have nothing to offer, please don't leave the thread without hitting the FAQ button in the upper right corner I want to help get this thread noticed by the design team. I really appreciate it if, you could all head over there and at least hit the FAQ button. If you disagree with my position go ahead and Troll me a little. I'm easy pikins' !!!Thx in advance, and don't be afraid to share the thread with others!
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An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40° F) must make a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description).
In conditions of severe cold or exposure (below 0° F), an unprotected character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check), taking 1d6 points of nonlethal damage on each failed save. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters wearing a cold weather outfit only need check once per hour for cold and exposure damage.
Actually rereading this has changed my opinion a little. If CWO moves the below zero check from ten minutes to an hour, it would seem that the CWO would increase the 0-40 check from an hour to a day at least. It seems it would make some sort of extension of time on check as it does with extreme cold checks. But that's my final thought, I'll drop it now. But I get what you're sayin.
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** spoiler omitted **
Actually rereading this has changed my opinion a little. If CWO moves the below zero check from ten minutes to an hour, it would seem that the CWO would increase the 0-40 check from an hour to a day at least. It seems it would make some sort of extension of time on check as it does with extreme cold checks. But that's my final thought, I'll drop it now. But I get what you're sayin.
Well don't be afraid to post what you think on the thread I've linked. I want as many hits on that thread as possible so it gets some attention by the developers..
Well, as far as I know, nothing has changed for PFS characters. Until they update the Additional Resources list, none of the new rules are allowed. Once they update it, I assume they will clarify old vs new, but until then, I doubt you can answer that question. But for now, all feats on page 24 of People of the North are still legal and in effect.
One thing I can say, though, is if they disallow the feat form PofN and approve it from the new book, I think you have to have the new book to use it.
So, this cold weather thing has come up in a couple of games, so I have been re-reviewing, and I think if you don't consider gold-weather gear, or even furs, "protected", then no one could survive in normal winter temperatures without some immunity to cold.
So I am changing my mind on that particular issue.