Opening of discussion thread for mustering players for this scenario.
So we just have Tobold and Darvan so far? Guess we'll have to go recruiting. I will try to PM the others to see if any are coming.
It appears it is just the 4 of you continuing: Milo, Archibald, Tobold, and Darvan. With the two animal companions, I think we can continue. Are you ready to go?
I am putting the intro post up, and we can work from there.
Just a reminder, we are playing this one for PbP #2 Gameday credit and possible boons. Good Luck!
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Sorry, the fact that you stated you were mounting (a move action) and charging (a full round action) led me to believe you were fast mounting. If you have some other way to fit a move action and a full-round action into a round, then I was wrong.
As far as the charging rules, here's the relevant part (emphasis mine):
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
The closest space you can attack is from 10' away, with your lance. I don't see that as ambiguous at all. If you were wielding a non-reach weapon, it would be 5' away, and your mount could get an attack in, too.
That said, it's the GM's call.
Hmmm, I agree the rules on reach weapon in a charge are unclear at best and contradictory at worst.
I think, for our game at least, I will allow the mounted charge with a lance and the animal bite in the same round. Basically, I can't see how a whole class (cavalier) is built on the concept of mounted charge if this isn't allowed.
In my way of looking at it, the lance attack happens in the square before the mount attack happens. I realize that is probably not the exactly correct way to run Mounted Combat, but it's best I can interpret given the variety of voices on the subject, without invalidating the whole class/build.
More problematic to me is the idea of mounting as a move action and then charging. Is the idea that you take a move action to mount, and a standard action to attack, while the mount makes the full-round charge? If you take a less than full-round charge, you can't draw a weapon without the quick draw feat.
I think you'd be better served in this instance, to forget the "charge" (and associated bonus/penalties) and just make a move action/standard action combo for both mount and rider (especially since your attack missed in any event).
Thoughts?
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Ya, without ride-by attack, I think mounted combat is limited to either you attack, or the mount does, not both, with a reach weapon.
Right - Ride-By Attack is the feat that would allow you to charge, hit with the lance, then keep moving (which would then allow the mount to attack). Without it, you're limited to stopping when your lance hits (as the closest space), so unless your mount has reach, that's that.
As to invalidating the class as a whole, I disagree. You're just making a choice:
- You can use a lance and do double damage.
- You can use a non-reach weapon so you and your mount can both attack
I guess all I'm saying at this point, Tobi, is that while this table might allow it, don't expect to get the same response at the next one. You might want to consider how your tactics might need to change as a result.
...and with that, I'd say we've thoroughly beaten this horse, let's move on.
Hey, great discussion. I play a mounted cleric in my tabletop game and have just made a mounted lore-warden for PFS here on the boards, but this still filled a lot of holes for me as far as mounted combat goes. Does the lance extend from your mount's square or 5ft beyond presuming a large-sized mount?
If we might continue to blather on about this, I've found the best policy for mounted combat is to treat it as something that only happens sometimes, rather than fixating on being mounted all the time. Even a small sized cavalier can't guarantee their charge damage every combat. Specialised mounted characters are still going to have good BAB and power attack, and any chump with a lance and a war-trained mount can benefit from charging into battle on horseback (with no guarantee of staying in the saddle). As for invalidating the class, it invalidates one or two class features. The Cavalier is an awesome class even on foot. Challenge, Tactician and Full-BAB make them really fun and well-rounded.
Personally I dont understand the love for small-sized mounted characters, no offense meant to Tobi. Cramped dungeons are rarely a good environment for mounted characters anyway, and Large creatures can squeeze. Also the large-sized horse is like enlarge-person-lite as far as battlefield positioning goes. Also Destriers are just plain manly.
My move action to mount, doesn't use any of my mount's actions... the mount charges. I may make an attack with the same bonuses and penalties. You can draw a weapon as a part of movement if your BAB is +1 or greater. Climbing onto a mount is movement, and it's not even inconceivable that once could pull a lance from their back while swinging their leg over their mount. (Since we're already assuming a lance is a thing someone carries on their back rather than being handed by a page or squire once already mounted.)
Regarding charging, again, the mount is charging, not Tobi. So we're required to end in an adjacent square regardless of my weapon. So either I can't charge with a lance at all ever because it has reach and all mounted charges will end adjacent, or the rules are terribly written to reflect what the devs would like them to do.
I think Darvan's warning should be well-heeded. The mounted combat rules are so poorly written and understood that you will get significant variance at other tables. I am trying to find a way to allow it instead of disallow it, but not everyone will take that approach.
Oh I expect table variation. Also, I'll have Ride By Attack at level 3 (assuming Tobi survives). I just didn't get to put my two cents in because I was at work. Whatever you did is fine. I missed the lance attack anyway.
But the action economy thing was just wrong. I was never charging. The mount was charging. If I can't also draw my weapon that would have to do with the GM disagreeing that drawing while mounting was feasible (which I'm totally willing to concede).
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Hey, great discussion. I play a mounted cleric in my tabletop game and have just made a mounted lore-warden for PFS here on the boards, but this still filled a lot of holes for me as far as mounted combat goes. Does the lance extend from your mount's square or 5ft beyond presuming a large-sized mount?
It's 5' from any square your mount occupies.
If we might continue to blather on about this, I've found the best policy for mounted combat is to treat it as something that only happens sometimes, rather than fixating on being mounted all the time. Even a small sized cavalier can't guarantee their charge damage every combat.
Actually, small-sized cavaliers with Ride-By Attack and Wheeling Charge can generally do a very good job of getting their charge damage most rounds. Just sayin'.
Specialised mounted characters are still going to have good BAB and power attack, and any chump with a lance and a war-trained mount can benefit from charging into battle on horseback (with no guarantee of staying in the saddle). As for invalidating the class, it invalidates one or two class features. The Cavalier is an awesome class even on foot. Challenge, Tactician and Full-BAB make them really fun and well-rounded.
Personally I dont understand the love for small-sized mounted characters, no offense meant to Tobi. Cramped dungeons are rarely a good environment for mounted characters anyway, and Large creatures can squeeze. Also the large-sized horse is like enlarge-person-lite as far as battlefield positioning goes. Also Destriers are just plain manly.
Actually, that's the beauty of small-sized mounted characters. With a medium mount, you're essentially guaranteed to have the same maneuverability as a medium character on foot, faster movement, reach, and do a massive amount of damage with feats like those mentioned above, as well as Spirited Charge and the like.
Actually, small-sized cavaliers with Ride-By Attack and Wheeling Charge can generally do a very good job of getting their charge damage most rounds. Just sayin'.
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Actually, that's the beauty of small-sized mounted characters. With a medium mount, you're essentially guaranteed to have the same maneuverability as a medium character on foot, faster movement, reach, and do a massive amount of damage with feats like those mentioned above, as well as Spirited Charge and the like.
I can't think of many circumstances that a medium character is any more maneuverable than a large, especially with Overrun/Trample in the case of a Cavalier mount. Wheeling Charge is indeed very nice, but it also benefits the horse-riding cavalier just as much. Maybe it's just a matter of taste, but there's my two coppers.
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If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
You can only draw a weapon as part of a 'regular' move. Don't think that includes any move-equivalent action.
But the action economy thing was just wrong. I was never charging. The mount was charging.
If you're mount is charging, so are you. (See FAQ entry)
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Found this, fwiw (emphasis mine):
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
So drawing the weapon isn't the issue.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.You can only draw a weapon as part of a 'regular' move. Don't think that includes any move-equivalent action.
It actually says "as part of movement". I didn't take this to mean any move-equivalent action, but it also doesn't clearly limit it to 'regular' moves.
But the action economy thing was just wrong. I was never charging. The mount was charging.If you're mount is charging, so are you. (See FAQ entry)
Yes, I know, but that doesn't actually address the issue of who's actions are being used. In normal mounted combat, my mount gets it's actions and I get mine. I see no reason charging would be different. The action of charging is still something the mount is doing even though we're both considered charging for all benefits and penalties associated.
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I quoted the section... 'regular movement' is what it says. Perhaps there's text somewhere else that says something slightly different that you're seeing? shrug. You can pull out a weapon during a charge anyway, so kinda moot. =)
So re-read some of the rules again.
Yes, the mount gets actions, as do you, but I would think you're not supposed to be able to double dip on those actions.
Taking a move action, letting the mount use its move to move you elsewhere, then taking a standard action, is no different, action wise, then letting the mount move you, then taking your move and standard... and if you could do that, you could ride in and full attack... which is quite specifically not allowed.
If the mount moves more then 5' you are limited to a single standard action because you have to wait for it to get where its going. That seems to imply that though the mount is taking its action separate, it is still using up some of the time in which you can do your own if you can't perform said action during the move portion of the mount's (archery lets you do this last bit still)
The FAQ on mounted charges I linked above, mentions that you both have to follow all rules for charging. Is action cost part of that?
Shrug, some thoughts anyway.
ah i was referring to the 'normal' entry under quick draw. also, i reread the faq. you're right. i still think the bit about full attacking is irrelevant. (it's called out specifically and is therefore an exception to normal rules) but yes, i agree the faq clears up the action cost. my apologies to you and darvan.
either way that still means the mount is and must be charging so the rules are just incompatible with reach weapons without Ride By Attack.
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Ya, I agree with your there.
Needs to be a 'charge' option for the mount that does not include an attack.
(ie: like your typical jousting scenario)
fyi, in a local game, I'm playing a human beastmaster cavalier aiming to have a big mean owlbear to ride into battle.
Sadly, none of that is even possible until level 8 or so for me, so for the first 7 levels of my career, I'll be a mount focused cavalier, with no mount. =)
I've been trying to learn the rules for when that day comes... so far, mostly just been confused. I've been leaning towards just riding him to the fight, fast dismounting, and then fighting alongside, to avoid having to figure it all out.
hey doc, can you make the last campaign inactive?
done
I'm likely going to be quiet for a spell. My router has up and died on me at home, and I've been having to couch-surf to get my uni work done. This week I've two units of work to write, the next due 12 hours rom now, and one 4k word assignment before I go out on my first school placement for two weeks. I'm yet uncertain where I'm going and how busy I'll be but I'll imagine I'll be pretty flat out.
I should still be able to post here and there so I don't want to drop out of the scenario entirely (the banter with Milo is too much fun) so I'd appreciate it if you could bot me and I'll check in where I can. :)
Will bot you as I can. Pop in when you get your gear working again.
We only started out with 4. The two of you, Archie and Tobold. Archie has a bit of an excused absence, but Tobold has gone missing since the discussion on charges, etc.
Hopefully, he's out there just watching and waiting....
We should finish okay. This is the 4th act with the 5th soon to follow.
I was waiting until the weekend ended for Tobold, since the original requirement was one post per weekend, but for the rest of the AP, we will move faster than that to close by end of the month.
I will post twice per day, and if you are up and haven't posted, I'll DM-PC you.
Since we are on the edge of completing the scenario, and just to make things easy for me, can you re-post the following:
1) Player Name (as you want on our chron sheet)
2) PFS number
3) Faction
4) any purchases or sales you need recoreded on the sheet that occurred before, during, or after the scenario.
The Tier 1-2 gold for this scenario is 457. And the only item on this Tier's item list is Potion of CMW for 300gp.
You have completed the secondary success condition by not getting arrested breaking into Pildapush's slave shop earlier , so you'll get the 2nd PP as well.
You may also roll a d20 for boons. On a Natural 20, you may take your choice from the list of boons (I will provide), on a natural 1, you are granted a boon randomly. I also get to roll, and mine is below.
Good luck!
Day jobs anyone?