|
Trolling the board like I have, seeking ways to improve my gameplay and my DM'ery; I see builds of characters all the time. And most of the time I see people who drop a stat or two all for the sake of a +1. I understand certain feats require certain Stat mins. But is dropping your WIS to a 8 to 5 really worth it? Ive never seen it that much in 3.5 or older (less of course you just rolled sucky). But now with the move toward more point buy games it seems to me more common place. Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing? And for that matter, does anyone have the stones to dump stat CON? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. I'm trying to understand. Thanks.
Stat dumping is going to happen with point buy. Personally, most of my characters high stat's are 16 after a racial bonus, I do play one that has an 18. So considering peoples view of optimization, my characters main goals are try not to die. Most classes have a greater mechanic difference to stats than another.
At later levels, dump stat's will in effect show more than earlier levels, with wider selection of conditions and effects.
You saw it just as much with 3 and 3.5 point buy. You just couldn't buy down then and only bought up from 8. So someone leaving a stat at 8 was just not raising it, instead of dumping it. Before 3rd edition, stats mattered alot less, so you can't really compare it before then. One of the biggest changes was making stat bonuses mean more. Even then, in older editions you saw people twinking their stats just as much when the DM allowed.
Once you accept that you will always fail a certain task, is there a reason to not dump it further to enhance what you are good at? Specialization makes you stronger in the game. Dumping stats opens up vulnerabilities, but average stats make it so that you are not very good at your specialty and do not greatly increase your chance of success on your weaknesses.
Roll vs role has nothing to do with it. Optimization and roleplay are not mutually exclusive.
And yes, people do dump con. I'm looking at doing it on my cavalier for an upcoming game. Only reason I haven't finalized it yet is because I know I will be the only front liner, but even then I might.
|
A stat-dump to me is to put it at 10...
I have this aversion to negatives...
Although I am not saying I won't do it for a role-playing purpose - it was a fact of life before point-buy that you got what you rolled, so I have played my share of "dump characters."
One of my all-time favourites had a strength of 7 (not point-buy) but that ultimately led to her death when she was strength-sucked by a shadow in her sleep...
Worst.
Death.
Ever.
Trolling the board like I have, seeking ways to improve my gameplay and my DM'ery; I see builds of characters all the time. And most of the time I see people who drop a stat or two all for the sake of a +1. I understand certain feats require certain Stat mins. But is dropping your WIS to a 8 to 5 really worth it? Ive never seen it that much in 3.5 or older (less of course you just rolled sucky). But now with the move toward more point buy games it seems to me more common place. Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing? And for that matter, does anyone have the stones to dump stat CON? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. I'm trying to understand. Thanks.
I saw this jsut as much in 3.0 and 3.5, and really point buy has little to do with either. The stats people dump are the ones that would have gotten the low roll. If i was playing a 3.5 stat and rolled a 5 or an 8 or whatever, it was going into intelligence.
I also dont think it has to do with roll vs role. Even dumping a stat doesnt stop you from roleplaying it. I have played up my old frail wizard in non-dice based situations, the same with the dumb barbarian or socially inept dwarf. If anything dumping stats gives MORE opportunity to roleplay. If all my stats are 13 that provides far less opportunity to roleplay then if i have a 20charisma and a 7 wisdom.
Trolling the board like I have [...] Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing?
There's nothing new under the sun. Putting your low stat in a position where it won't bother you dates back to the earliest versions of D&D, in my experience. So nothing has overtaken anything recently.
Stat dumping isn't just a part of point buy, with rolling 3d6 you could easily drop below the allowed minimum in point buy.
I don't see why dropping a stat to 7 is considered such an awfully power gaming idea - why shouldn't the highly intelligent wizard be a social nightmare? True, he might just as well be a weak couch potatoe, but then again, he wouldn't go out into the world adventuring into the wilds with a frail constitution...
A warrior with little Wisdom had better hope for a perceptive scout and take care of his will saves another way, and while some classes appear to become more and more cookie cutterish (which, agreed, is kind of sad) for some players it's also an incentive to play against the trend. Every class is playable with 17-16-13-10-8-7 as well as 14-14-13-13-12-12, though a well weighted party is probably better off with characters made with the first array. So for synergy reasons it's again natural for players to want to specialize - as a "hero" I prefer to excel in some areas instead of "everyone in the party roll, lets see who's lucky this time".
And of course you got better ground for theorycrafting with a point buy system than rolling stats, so it's only natural optimization threads primarily consider point buy.
I've seen some pregens somewhere that had a Con of 8 or 9 but I've never seen one played. Neither I nor anyone I have ever played with has ever dump statted Con. Dedicated figter types need every hp they can muster. At first level, where you get max hp, you might be able to swing it but once you start rolling it's going to be ouchy.
d10-1 means a 1 in 5 chance (20%) of getting only 1 hp
d6-1 means a 1 in 3 chance of getting only 1 hp
Those are crappy odds IMO. Now, if your DM does something like, "No less than half max hp/level" you can get away with it a little more but I still don't think I'd voluntarily take a penalty to Con.
SJ
A stat-dump to me is to put it at 10...
I have this aversion to negatives...
+1
I dont' know why... but I just can't seem to shoot myself in the foot that way. To intentionally give myself a -1 to stuff... ehhhh... can't do it.
My typical array is 15, 14, 13, 10, 10 10. If it's 20 point buy, add in a second 14.
That lets me get arrays like:
17 14 14 13 10 10.<--- the best
15 16 13 14 10 10.<--- multiclass surprise
15 14 15 14 10 10.<--- paladin/monk special
It works well. By 8th you're rocking
18 14 14 14 10 10. <--- the best
16 16 14 14 10 10. <--- multiclass surprise
16 14 16 14 10 10. <--- paladin/monk special
I like it.
Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing?
Yeah, long time ago, didn't you get the memo?
ROLL-playing vs. ROLE-playing isn't black and white, it's a continuum of slightly differing shades of gray. It's also personal preference, so I will just leave that whole debate alone.
That said, yes, some people dump a stat for role-playing, while others role-play the stat they dumped.
Fer instance, I wanted to role-play a middle-aged Friar Tuck inspired cleric. So, I made him tipsy and slightly clumsy (low DEX) and I also paid the points to simulate the adjustment for middle age. While not as bad as CON having a low DEX results in the more hits and fewer saves, but it become his 'hook' he was the guy always falling off the narrow bridge or getting torched by the fireball.
I GMed this weekend for a player that wanted a powerful barbarian (high STR and high CON while dumping INT, WIS and CHA). He role-plays the stupid socially-backward barbarian well and let me tell you a well-timed fear spell sent this mucho-macho barbarian crying for mommy.
Either way, dumping a stat exposes a weakness. Is it worth it? Well, like I said, it's personal preference. I know a player that refuses to dump any stat because his characters should be heroic and above the norm in all respects. Again, personal preference.
My typical array is to go with:
18, 16 (str or dex depending on the build)
13 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
7 Cha
And this is, IMO, the thing that those of us who hate point buys hate the most. I don't have a problem with someone putting a low roll in a place it won't hurt them as much, but there's a difference between making lemonade with the lemon you got and intentionally going out and buying lemons instead of blueberries.
It's especially bad to me when people drop two stats to 7 (or less). Basically, you're making a character who is annoying and dumb to boot (some would argue borderline functional from an INT standpoint, there's a couple of threads ongoing now on this one).
Imagine a group of 4 people built with 7's in two or more stats. You have four semi-disfunctional people (remember, human average is 13/11/11/10/10/10) all banded together running around the countryside, heavily armed and armored, and possibly with the equivalent of an assault carrier (sorcerer/wizard/etc).
And, in my experience (which may not be yours), people want to take negatives in their stats, but howl if you penalize them for it by having people ignore the low charisma guy, or for not letting the 7 int melee monster have good tactical plans and be able to quote information about monsters without having the requisite ranks in skills.
Trolling the board like I have, seeking ways to improve my gameplay and my DM'ery; I see builds of characters all the time. And most of the time I see people who drop a stat or two all for the sake of a +1. I understand certain feats require certain Stat mins. But is dropping your WIS to a 8 to 5 really worth it? Ive never seen it that much in 3.5 or older (less of course you just rolled sucky). But now with the move toward more point buy games it seems to me more common place. Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing? And for that matter, does anyone have the stones to dump stat CON? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. I'm trying to understand. Thanks.
Other replies above mine state this as well, yes for a point-buy system there is usually a dump stat.
When using a 20 point buy system and you dump Cha to 7 you now have 24 points to spend on "more important" abilities. At least that's what the consensus is.
I agree with the spirt of your post. To put it another way. Has min/maxing or optimizing overtaken role-playing? If you read these forums then I would say yes it has. I think some of this issue stems from PFS where role-playing is minimal at best, and the emphasis on combat is heavy. Which, in and of itself, is fine however there seems to be bleedthrough to home games as well. Another way this is seeing more light of day is the type of GM you have. If you have a GM that plays a kobold like General Patton, then you have to optimize just to stay alive through combat.
Personally I feel that flavor/RP > min/maxing or optimizing.
I've played a kobold like General Patton before. :)
On the other hand, he was a 9th level fighter with a 14 INT, Knowledge (Tactics), a cohort, and a band of kobold followers. :)
I also ran a Hill Giant as a tactical genius with 15 3rd level goblin archer followers. He had his territory fully booby trapped and set up as a kill zone.
The PCs found a circlet on him after killing him, it was a +4 INT band with Knowledge (Tactics) and Craft (Traps) on it. :)
I've played a kobold like General Patton before. :)
On the other hand, he was a 9th level fighter with a 14 INT, Knowledge (Tactics), a cohort, and a band of kobold followers. :)
LOL I should've qualified that with "a normal kobold." :)
Other replies above mine state this as well, yes for a point-buy system there is usually a dump stat.
When using a 20 point buy system and you dump Cha to 7 you now have 24 points to spend on "more important" abilities. At least that's what the consensus is.
I agree with the spirt of your post. To put it another way. Has min/maxing or optimizing overtaken role-playing? If you read these forums then I would say yes it has. I think some of this issue stems from PFS where role-playing is minimal at best, and the emphasis on combat is heavy. Which, in and of itself, is fine however there seems to be bleedthrough to home games as well. Another way this is seeing more light of day is the type of GM you have. If you have a GM that plays a kobold like General Patton, then you have to optimize just to stay alive through combat.
Personally I feel that flavor/RP > min/maxing or optimizing.
Like others have said the two are not mutually exclusive, you can minmax the heck out of a character and make them flavorful and roleplay them in deep and interesting ways.
Also, the forums are a very bad sample for roleplay vs rollplay. It is really hard to talk about roleplaying on the boards. Seriously, we've tried. It means different things to different people. For some people it means acting 'in character' literally acting. Others it means focusing on saying and doing things the character would do, but not neccesarily 'voicing' the character, for others it means being extremely descriptive about what you do and how you do it. There is no common experience when it comes to roleplay, because it isnt in the book.
For the most part the book describes mechanical things, how combat works, how skills work. We all use that book and thus have some kind of common experience. Even if we heavily houserule, we all know what +1 BAB and weapon focus mean. We all know what a cloak of resistance does to your saves. So we can discuss it far easier.
In addition roleplay situations are specific. You have to do a TON of explaining before people get the context of a roleplaying scenario. Who the characters involved are, what their motivations are, what their history is, what the setting is like, what kind of opinions does the group have about alignment such. Only after all that can people actually comment on the situation. The context of optimization and mechanics is clear right from the start, you can link people or copy paste test from the prd to explain your point. It is just...easier to talk about mechanics on the boards.
So taking the volume of discussion here as a sample is probably not a good indication.
The other thing is with flavor and roleplay is hard to understand. One of my favorite flavor ideas for a verdant sorceror in the APG is to have the 1st level spell color spray appear like blooming colorful flowers to the enemy.
|
|
Agreed. I tend to build my characters with a theme or concept in mind. With emphasis on being effective in most regards as opposed to awesome sauce in one area and then let the party face do the rest. I also like my characters to be cinematic;If there is any flaw to the character it just highlights the rest to make him cool. Han Solo is a prime example. Smart, fast, charming, tough. But brash and reckless at times(Good int, great dex, good cha and con. Probably avg to slightly above str, but avg to low wis).
|
Using a 15 point buy the array I use most.
MAD 15 14 14 12 10 7 SAD 17 14 12 10 9 7
My curent character oracle of battle(MAD) human.
Str17 Dex12 Con14 Int10 Wis7 Cha14
Flavor = optimizing
With out the optimizing your character. It will not work as well as some one that uses optimization. So you will never be as good at doing the same thing. So in character creation there the same thing. You start with a character concept then do the number crunching. When your at the table your RP. When you make a character you use optimization.
Using RP to explane why your character is out classed. And dose not preform as well as the rest of the group is a wast of time. Each group is difrent. I run AP's alot becous im laze and they are well writen. They are rough on good partys. Deadly on weak partys.
My group is a party of 4 players using 15 point buy.
Using a 15 point buy. Requires alot of work optimizing characters.
Runing AP's with a 20 point buy is not bad. Dose require some work on optimizing characters.
Runing AP's with a 25 point buy is a easy. Unless you modify the AP it will be to easy on the party.
There are dump stats because some classes/builds demand more from survivability than others, and offer next to no use for dumpable stats.
If I ever play a fighter, I am going to set my int and cha on fire and warm my Str/Dex/Con/Wis on the smoldering remains. I need to hit (str and dex, I really loathe being unable to do ranged combat as a martial character), survive (con, because even with dex 200, you WILL take damage) and not fall asleep or become the enemy caster's puppet (wis).
Though my current paladin does not have glaring dumpies except for one 8 in Wis, as he gets good enough saves, and can survive through lay on hands, which allows me to disregard the 14+ base con.
And my cleric has no stats under 10, as he needs to have basic understanding of what he is doing, enough cha to get selective channeling, enough strength to carry his breastplate and shield, and dumping dex or con is mechanical harakiri.
Arcane casters serve as the other extreme, and pretty much need to have a 18 (preferably 20) in their primary casting stat, as that is ALL they are good for. They will be equally miserable in combat if they have str12 or str7. Save yourself some points and do the sane thing. Get your con up to survive being the primary target, and dex up to getting to act before you die.
|
My typical array is to go with:
18, 16 (str or dex depending on the build)
13 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
7 ChaI'm almost always a human.
I can't really imagine playing a character without a 20 in my primary stat. The whole point is to be ahead of the power curve so that you can get as close to a cinematic feel as possible. I dislike the idea of actually failing at my rolls, I ought to just be auto-succeeding the way you see in TV and movies, but with a dice game this is as close as possible as one can hope.
The low Int is because humans get +1 skill point, and even with the -2 you always get a minimum of 1 skill point per level from you class, so even if the low Int erases your skills normally you end up getting a minimum of 2 per level, or 3 if you go with favored class bonus.
Of course Charisma... what a joke. It isn't useful in any real sense in combat, and there is always someone who wants to play the diplomancer in a party so I just kick back and let them do the talking.
I'm not really satisfied with this array, as I recently realized, what I want is a 42 point buy, which would solve the dump issue all together.
+1, but I hate to admit it.
Starting with that 20 is a must for casters.
Has ROLL-Playing overtaken ROLE-Playing? And for that matter, does anyone have the stones to dump stat CON? I'm not pointing out anyone in particular. I'm trying to understand. Thanks.
I don't really see stats as a very good roleplaying aid. They're so vague and open to interpretation that they're pretty much meaningless. I can't look at someones stat array and predict how they play their character at all. Some people might see that as a strength of the system, I see it as a non-relevance of the system.
|
|
My typical array is to go with:
18, 16 (str or dex depending on the build)
13 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
7 ChaI'm almost always a human.
I can't really imagine playing a character without a 20 in my primary stat. The whole point is to be ahead of the power curve so that you can get as close to a cinematic feel as possible. I dislike the idea of actually failing at my rolls, I ought to just be auto-succeeding the way you see in TV and movies, but with a dice game this is as close as possible as one can hope.
The low Int is because humans get +1 skill point, and even with the -2 you always get a minimum of 1 skill point per level from you class, so even if the low Int erases your skills normally you end up getting a minimum of 2 per level, or 3 if you go with favored class bonus.
Of course Charisma... what a joke. It isn't useful in any real sense in combat, and there is always someone who wants to play the diplomancer in a party so I just kick back and let them do the talking.
I'm not really satisfied with this array, as I recently realized, what I want is a 42 point buy, which would solve the dump issue all together.
That character would be mildly mentally retarded with the personality of a cardboard box.
It has been around since the game began. You had it in the TSR days with the brothers from the first Dragonlance trilogy. One was strong but stupid and naive while the other was smart but unlikeable and sickly.
Some basic edition games had rules to allow you to raise one ability by lowering it's opposite by two. STR-INT & DEX-WIS. I do not remember if it allowed CHA and CON to swap or not.
Point buy just puts the power in the characters hands better then ever before.
That character would be mildly mentally retarded with the personality of a cardboard box.My typical array is to go with:
18, 16 (str or dex depending on the build)
13 Con
7 Int
10 Wis
7 ChaI'm almost always a human.
I can't really imagine playing a character without a 20 in my primary stat. The whole point is to be ahead of the power curve so that you can get as close to a cinematic feel as possible. I dislike the idea of actually failing at my rolls, I ought to just be auto-succeeding the way you see in TV and movies, but with a dice game this is as close as possible as one can hope.
The low Int is because humans get +1 skill point, and even with the -2 you always get a minimum of 1 skill point per level from you class, so even if the low Int erases your skills normally you end up getting a minimum of 2 per level, or 3 if you go with favored class bonus.
Of course Charisma... what a joke. It isn't useful in any real sense in combat, and there is always someone who wants to play the diplomancer in a party so I just kick back and let them do the talking.
I'm not really satisfied with this array, as I recently realized, what I want is a 42 point buy, which would solve the dump issue all together.
A mildly retarded cardboard box of raging death, you mean. I choose higher point buys and dump stats because I get sick of making characters and having to sit out for a couple of hours during my 1 day of the week I'm supposed to be having fun so the DM can work my new character back in.
In a Ravenloft campaign, my bungling fighter (curse low rolls!) died from a much smarter enemy fooling him into a trap. So I spent the next two hours, rolling a new character, getting a backstory, waiting another hour for him to be introduced, and died to a Zombie Lord half an hour later. And then sat out, made a new character, and then we had to go home. F@%~ That.
Nope, incredibly survivable, nigh OP characters are the only ones I play because I hate being bored on my day off. Screw realism.
Many, many gamers tend to avoid getting an 8 in something because they don't want a 'negative'. This is patently silly as the '+0' modifier means absolutely nothing. It's an arbitrary point of reference.
I don't disagree with your over-all points here, james, but this one stuck out to me. While yes, to some extent the 10 (+0) is somewhat arbitrary, it still means something. That +0 represents 'average' for a human.
So if you're fine tanking INT because you're just gonna be a combat bruiser and don't care about the roleplay applications, that's your choice. But it does actually mean your character is dumber than most people. Will it affect how you enjoy your character? Maybe not one bit, but it still means something tangible in the world in which your character lives.
Or maybe i missed your actual point... which can happen.
Many, many gamers tend to avoid getting an 8 in something because they don't want a 'negative'. This is patently silly as the '+0' modifier means absolutely nothing. It's an arbitrary point of reference.I don't disagree with your over-all points here, james, but this one stuck out to me. While yes, to some extent the 10 (+0) is somewhat arbitrary, it still means something. That +0 represents 'average' for a human.
So if you're fine tanking INT because you're just gonna be a combat bruiser and don't care about the roleplay applications, that's your choice. But it does actually mean your character is dumber than most people. Will it affect how you enjoy your character? Maybe not one bit, but it still means something tangible in the world in which your character lives.
Or maybe i missed your actual point... which can happen.
My world is my world, and your world is your world. In my world, we give mildly retarded people swords and make them live in the wilderness and call them barbarians.
My world is my world, and your world is your world. In my world, we give mildly retarded people swords and make them live in the wilderness and call them barbarians.
Lol. Fair enough. Though just to be clear, i'm not telling anyone they can't do it... even if i'm teh GM. I was just pointing out that the rules do indicate that the +0 actually means something in game terms.
Now as to how you use that at your table.. or with your character? That's up to you.
My paladin can't effectively heal himself if he's only able to use LOH two-three times a day. Dump stats are because a single 16 isn't able to portray the kind of hero we all want when we roll up a fighter. Your mind controlling wizard? good luck portraying the years of practice you put in his background with DC 14 saves, sure you can break down a door but that isn't your character at all. Not min/maxing seems more hindering to role-play when you want to be a sneaky rogue and the blind/deaf guy can find you.
|
I like GMs that are trying to "say yes" to players. The whole old school hard core simulationist/gamist type games are just something that I'm done with as a player.When I sit down at the table the game should be servicing me, not tying to zap me. My imagination far outstrips the desire to feel endlessly constrained as a player. I just ask for the freedom to deliver the awesome.
You sir, are welcome at my table anytime.
That character would be mildly mentally retarded with the personality of a cardboard box.But that's the great thing. Those issues don't come up in sessions, so I get to be the combat monster and not get penalized.
So, in other words, you want the benefits of dumping the stat, but god forbid the GM should put any RP penalties on you for being a mentally retarded cardboard box?
THIS is the attitude that drives me insane as a GM. People who want all the benefits but none of the penalties. You wouldn't have to quit my game, I'd kick your butt out.
When I sit down at the table the game should be servicing me, not tying to zap me. My imagination far outstrips the desire to feel endlessly constrained as a player. I just ask for the freedom to deliver the awesome.
That's fine assuming everyone else in your game -- including your GM -- feels the same way.
(We've talked about this before with the 42 point buy discussion. For the record, I would absolutely hate (HATE hate) to GM or play in a game like that.)
i've started plenty of casters without that 20.
should i tell you about a grey Elf sorceress i played back in 3.5 who started with a 15 charisma.
i don't have the original sheet anymore since it's been several years since i last played her.
but she was a 32 point buy 3.5 character who survived to level 10ish
i do remember the starting stats (after grey elf modifiers)
10 str
16 dex
10 con
16 int
14 wis
15 cha.
she specialized in buffs and blasts and eventually had some of the better summon spells. sometimes when a good spell came, she would wait a little to get a better variation, like summon monster 5 instead of 4. and use the multiple monsters from 4 option.
i placed all her level increases into charisma. but she was more likely to roll an attack roll than to make the enemy roll a saving throw.
My typical array is 15, 14, 13, 10, 10 10. If it's 20 point buy, add in a second 14.
This is my standard array as well.
I hate negative modifiers and generally avoid them like the plague, unless I have an interesting character with a specific ability related flaw (a simpleton, socially inept etc).
I'll take negatives depending on the character, sometimes I want that extra stat point and bonus to will saves more than I want the lack of penalty on charisma checks.
For example if I am playing a rogue I would like:
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 10.
And with a 20 point buy I can have that, but if I'm doing a 15 point buy game I'm willing to have the following:
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 7
OR
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 8
It depends on the character though -- for my alchemist I've dropped out strength for more points in Charisma simply because I'm making a madcap jester (new prestige class I'm working on, and will put up in homebrew soon) and want the charisma more than I need the strength (especially since I'm going to be finessing if forced to melee and relying on ranged attacks otherwise).
I have no desire to play a flawed character, it kind of baffles me how many people want to enact flawed people, rather than fantasize about being a super awesome person. In real life everyone's flawed and has to deal with shades of gray, so you'd think they'd want to escape from that when they go and play pretend.
I can relate to about half of this sentiment. I think that characters should be heroic, I can't stand sitting there missing for 5 rounds straight, my character is a hero, not some bumbling half trained shlub, but almost all of my characters have at least one low stat. I wouldn't want to play a horribly flawed character with a whole bunch of low stats, but all 18s is just as boring once you get over the juvenile god complex.
One or two low stats give you something to roleplay around, and presents you with challenges to deal with. Heck, when I switched from GMing 4e to PF I had the standard "NO one wants to be the cleric" issue, then I described the Oracle's Curse class feature and I had players fighting over it. Wish fulfillment comes into play with low stats too. In real life I am compulsively polite, and I have a real tendency to be cautious and delibrate. I enjoy playing low wis or cha characters because it let's me be impulsive and make bad decisions for the fun of it, or say what's on my mind without censoring myself.
Granted my playstyle has some influence on this, I the gam is the most fun when the [omitted] has hit the fan. The best fights are the ones that we won even though it was almost a TPK, roleplaying is at its best when the situation is desperate and urgent, and nothing worthwhile should EVER be easy.
I personally don't go below 8. You never what stat reducing ability will come up. It also hurts immersion for me after a point. I don't like to see anything below a 7 as a DM. I don't ban it, but I don't want to hear any whining if that stat is dropped to 0.
I personally don't go below 8. You never what stat reducing ability will come up. It also hurts immersion for me after a point. I don't like to see anything below a 7 as a DM. I don't ban it, but I don't want to hear any whining if that stat is dropped to 0.
That's the biggest part for me -- I'll take the low stat with the understanding that I'm penalized by the system simply by taking it -- I get the penalties, I might be dropped due to stat damage, whatever -- on the same token though I don't expect a GM to gun for nothing but my weakness all the time too (not accusing just saying).
Besides even heroes struggle at some things -- I feel that the 7~15 range is the "average person could be here" area -- above or below that point and you are into special territory and a 3 or above a 20 goes into "the professional's professional at the top of his game" area with anything over a 26 being in the "savant" stage of stats.
So, in other words, you want the benefits of dumping the stat, but god forbid the GM should put any RP penalties on you for being a mentally retarded cardboard box?
THIS is the attitude that drives me insane as a GM. People who want all the benefits but none of the penalties. You wouldn't have to quit my game, I'd kick your butt out.
Let me clarify first, this is all just my opinion. Play however you want.
MDT, I agree with you completely. Characters are not just the sum of their bonuses and modifiers. They are personalities derived from those numbers as well. When I see people write "Oh, you can optimize and Role-play at the same time" I always wonder how many of them are actually taking on the ROLE of those dump stats.
As a DM, sure, role-play your "awesome sauce", but to have that "awesome sauce" you better also role-play the fact that you are a socially inept moron.
Role-playing is not just using a voice to represent when your are talking in character, it is taking on the ROLE of that individual. Understanding how they are and interact with the world BASED on the core building blocks of the character, their Ability scores, Class, and Race. There's a reason these three things are the foundation of character building, they affect how they interact with the world, and how that same world interacts with them.
Sure, everybody plays differently and it's all about having fun. Good for you, go for it, have fun your way. But if anyone ever came to my table saying that they Role-play AND optimize and don't reflect their low Int in character, then I think that our disagreement on what the term Role-playing means would cause problems.
To me, not role-playing your dump stat is the same thing as meta-gaming. You're using resources to which your character doesn't have access.
I personally don't go below 8. You never what stat reducing ability will come up. It also hurts immersion for me after a point. I don't like to see anything below a 7 as a DM. I don't ban it, but I don't want to hear any whining if that stat is dropped to 0.That's the biggest part for me -- I'll take the low stat with the understanding that I'm penalized by the system simply by taking it -- I get the penalties, I might be dropped due to stat damage, whatever -- on the same token though I don't expect a GM to gun for nothing but my weakness all the time too (not accusing just saying).
Besides even heroes struggle at some things -- I feel that the 7~15 range is the "average person could be here" area -- above or below that point and you are into special territory and a 3 or above a 20 goes into "the professional's professional at the top of his game" area with anything over a 26 being in the "savant" stage of stats.
I can accept 7's, even 6's. Heck, I've played a 6 CHA barbarian (rolled). I was perfectly fine with the GM having PCs react negatively to me until I could schmooze them for a bit (I actually did put a few ranks into Diplomacy) and get them to change their minds.
I don't go out of my way to 'get' someone that buys off their stats, but they don't get a free ride either. The guy with the 7 CHA? Yeah, he never gets hit on by the pretty barmaids. The barmaid that has an 8 CHA? Yeah, she'll hit on him. Or maybe the half-orc girl (back in 3.5 when half-orcs had CHA penalties).
You got a 7 INT character? That's fine, but don't expect PCs to pay attention to your wonderful plans if you don't have some skill points put into the skills to make them sound credible. What is it Jeff Foxworthy says? Nobody wants to hear their brain surgeon say "What we're gonna do is, we're gonna saw the top o your head off, and root around in there with a stick and see if we cain't find that dad-blamed clot!" (Although, granted, that previous sentence could just as easily be a CHA 7 INT 18 brain surgeon).
What I have a problem with is the 7 CHA guy who get's his knickers in a wad because the NPC overlooks him and doesn't take him seriously unless he's proved himself. There was a quote above about someone not wanting to deal with stuff like that, they just wanted 'Awesome sauce' from level one and no roleplay effects from low stats.
Lots of good stuff.
You win, you're better at typing it out than I am. :)
If you have a GM that plays a kobold like General Patton, then you have to optimize just to stay alive through combat.
Hey, Those little guys can be crafty you know! :P
I personally don't go below 8. You never what stat reducing ability will come up. It also hurts immersion for me after a point. I don't like to see anything below a 7 as a DM. I don't ban it, but I don't want to hear any whining if that stat is dropped to 0.That's the biggest part for me -- I'll take the low stat with the understanding that I'm penalized by the system simply by taking it -- I get the penalties, I might be dropped due to stat damage, whatever -- on the same token though I don't expect a GM to gun for nothing but my weakness all the time too (not accusing just saying).
Besides even heroes struggle at some things -- I feel that the 7~15 range is the "average person could be here" area -- above or below that point and you are into special territory and a 3 or above a 20 goes into "the professional's professional at the top of his game" area with anything over a 26 being in the "savant" stage of stats.
I can accept 7's, even 6's. Heck, I've played a 6 CHA barbarian (rolled). I was perfectly fine with the GM having PCs react negatively to me until I could schmooze them for a bit (I actually did put a few ranks into Diplomacy) and get them to change their minds.
I don't go out of my way to 'get' someone that buys off their stats, but they don't get a free ride either. The guy with the 7 CHA? Yeah, he never gets hit on by the pretty barmaids. The barmaid that has an 8 CHA? Yeah, she'll hit on him. Or maybe the half-orc girl (back in 3.5 when half-orcs had CHA penalties).
You got a 7 INT character? That's fine, but don't expect PCs to pay attention to your wonderful plans if you don't have some skill points put into the skills to make them sound credible. What is it Jeff Foxworthy says? Nobody wants to hear their brain surgeon say "What we're gonna do is, we're gonna saw the top o your head off, and root around in there with a stick and see if we cain't find that dad-blamed clot!" (Although, granted,...
I don't impose auto penalties. If you keep your mouth shut then you are fine, however I will have NPC's talk to you so thinking you will never have to speak and that will get you over is a mistake.