ok decided to not leave but I have two other character concepts to try.
what was the starting money again (i remember we are all level 2)
For level 2, starting gold is 1000, or at least, I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
@Roughnecks: Jehova posted in our combat threat btw, he said we should proceed like color spray does not effect unconscious characters. Glad you are back on board :)
@Darkwolf: I did not read your actions too carefully, thought you did ready that nimble charge evade as a move action.
I think readying a teleport as a standard action kind of defeats the purpose of swift action teleports. So I will stay with my current school for now :)
Nah, from what I understand (or at least, I think as Eben explained it... I haven't really checked the relevant rules), you can start and finish Full-Round actions on different rounds.
So, I started casting in the surprise round with my standard, finished it in round 1 with my move, and then readied with my remaining standard.
That's a move I'll have to remember!
And Kailin scores a KO against my halfling. :(
It was well-played on his part, though.
Hmm... I'm inclined to say it was crits and high rolls, but we can go with well-played too :P
i just dropped a post on that in our game thread, but either way... one loss for Ritti... and my first loss in the arena.
: pours a sip of scotch on the ground :
And I guess I'll wait for the next round of fights. :D
Wow, that's your first loss? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Rolg was pretty beast, certainly.
And yes, new fights be needed soon now, yes.
Is there coin made from each fight? Also can we buy/replenish items between fights?
There is coin made on each fight (I'm not positive on the exact amount per, though). Edit: And lost, to a minimum based on level.
We can certainly buy items between fights, I'm not exactly sure how replenishing works though in the case of consumables. There was discussion of whether or not consumables would be counted against minimum wealth or if there'd be a limit of what could be considered negligible, and that would just be semi-ignored. I'm not sure if the specifics have been decided on that yet.
The details on what you gain for each win are in the opening post of this recruitment thread. I believe you gain a number of VP (victory points) equal to your opponent's character level (in this case, it should be 2). Then I think you gain a sum of gold also based on your defeated opponent's character level.
Also can we buy/replenish items between fights?
This has been a topic of much discussion. Jehova's original idea is that use of consumables – whether alchemical, ammunition, or magic in nature – is not auto-replenished. So if you used ammunition or potions, that amount is forever docked against your gold amount.
for example, Rolg used a Potion of Enlarge Person in his first fight. He won, bumping up his gold total, but that 50g for the used potion forever goes against that total. So I add up his total gold for all of his victories, then deduct that 50g.
That make sense?
[edit]Eben should play a ninja! ;)
@Darkwolf: I had a little look some pages back, I think Jehova's post on page 13 is the latest statement of our GM regarding the consumable discussion.
: fires up HeroLab, selects lvl 2 ninja, smiles :
Awesome, thanks guys. Ok so it looks like i get 700gp from the fight since Syken was level 2. I think that is correct.
Yep. From what I understand, that's right.
So who all is currently available for a fight?
Ritti (Lvl 2)
Rolg (Lvl 3)
Kirk finally got a chance to post macho's actions
you are up
I'm available also
Inen Somar is now dead.. and gone but there are two new thugs ready to go
[]Arak[]
[]Eko[]
Both LvL. 2
Also I want to commend Bruno on a must deserved victory
@Roughnecks: Kirk took his first blow in close combat and it hurt...
Yes very aware, Inen simply isn't the best laid plan of Haflings and Hounds
Seems like I need a bigger GDC candidate until Jehova settled the color spray on unconscious creatures thing. Can you CDG with firearms?
@Inen: Kirk gets the shivering thinking about what stronger options you came up with...
Kailin and Syken are both finished their latest matches, one with a win, one with a loss. So they're set for new matches whenever.
@ Spock: I'm pretty sure you can. Same way you can coup de grace with bows and other ranged weapons.
Edit: Actually, after just looking, it does specify bows and crossbows, huh? I imagine that's only since Firearms weren't around when the CRB was released, but I suppose technically...
They are more experimental fun builds.. I hope they can withstand the Arena.
Umm... just did a quick check. Apparently you can't. Coup de Grace specifically states bows and xbows, no guns :(
[edit]Ninja'ed again :) yeah, that's probably because the CRB was printed before UC, but on the other hand, guns can misfire...
Firelance would have been a good candidate, 4d6 CDG damage is hard to survive.
Can I fight naked so I don't have to carry my travelers outfit? Can't carry a heavy xbow...
Shova Bonehammer is ready (level 2) although I will be occupied most of this week.
You can definitely coup de grace with a firearm. I refuse to believe that putting a gun to someone's head isn't possible (or that someone would stick to RAW enough to disallow that). That said, firearm's do have a misfire chance, so perhaps that should need to be part of the CDG attempt.
I have an incoming post about dice and dice usage in any given post. If you can be patient, I should have it up sometime soon, and we can have some healthy discussion around it. (It's spurred by something that happened in Macho/Kirk's game, though I don't believe it was intentional by the player).
Give me a little bit to finish out my post (it' kind of long, sorry)
I have an incoming post about dice and dice usage in any given post. If you can be patient, I should have it up sometime soon, and we can have some healthy discussion around it. (It's spurred by something that happened in Macho/Kirk's game, though I don't believe it was intentional by the player).
@everyone: feel free to see what's in the spoiler tags of that post (my round 4 post). You can calculate my concentration modifier anyway from what I posted and the greensting scorpion is on the SRD.
What happened there is kind of a bummer for my arena motivation :(
I've been following the Kirk/Macho game, and this came up:
What!? I rolled a 15, I swear by everything dear to me!
I did edit the part of the post before :: Round 4 :: in after I did the rest of the post because I forgot about Uhura's AoO and it would happen before round 4. Is the random system on the boards working in a way that the 15 from my now second roll in that post got shifted because of the edit?
[edit] the third roll in that post is no longer valid as well! damn it! you will see that my random results got shifted up one column by the edit, the 15 should have been the concentration roll, the 2 should have been uhura's attack roll :(
I think we should discuss the dice on the boards and how they should be used in this Arena.
Let me say first that I think this should all be done primarily through the honor system, relying on the Arbiter to help adjudicate any mistakes.
I'll say it again: I think we should be using the honor system here.
This is not an indictment on Spockondope. He says it was an honest mistake; I'm inclined to believe him.
First thing: How the dice work (just so we're all on the same page)
The dice mechanic on these boards have had more than a few iterations. Here's how they currently work (please let me know if I have anything incorrect).
I'm not concerned with how the dice generate numbers; for all intents and purposes, it's random. But, once you enter a post (by either previewing or submitting said post), it logs those rolls. It seems to track these logs by per account, thread, and post.
This means that when Spock dropped that post (regardless if he had posted under his main Spock profile or his Kirk profile), whatever dice he generates will remain his rolls through previewing, submitting, and even deleting and re-creating a new post.
What this means is that if you realize that you missed a necessary roll, and it needs to be inserted higher in your post (and we'll get to that later) it will change the rolls you had assigned to your existing actions.
I think that is appropriate and fair. To keep things fair, I think we should fairly use whatever dice come up on whatever action. If we then have to go back and include another rolls (because we forgot an AoO, to use Spock's example) it will and should (in my opinion) change the rolls for your other actions. Yes, this could help or hurt your efforts in play, but it's fair.
It's also no fool-proof, and it's not tamper-proof. One could very easily preview your dice rolls, not like them, and decide to instead change your actions to do something that doesn't "waste your action".
I BELIEVE THIS IS DISHONEST AND DEFINITELY NOT WITHIN THE SPIRIT OF THE HONOR SYSTEM. (Sorry, I thought it appropriate to bold that for emphasis)
Alternatively, a person could preview their rolls and realize that by shifting their actions around or by including other actions/rolls, they can "bypass" a bad roll and allocate a good roll to an action that is more useful.
AGAIN, I BELIEVE THIS I DISHONEST AND DEFINITELY NOT WITHIN THE SPIRIT OF THE HONOR SYSTEM. (See? Again, important enough to cap it all up… i'll try to avoid doing it more)
If you disagree with what I've said so far, please stop and let's address those things. Those are the foundations on which I'm building the rest of my post.
That said…
How dice should be used (and specifically in what order dice should be used in a single post for multiple purposes):
Let's be honest, when you're sitting at a table with your friends, you have to live with the rolls you make. Additionally, rolls are nearly always made in response to a specific action that you've declared (attack or skill attempt) or your DM has requested of you (reactive skill attempt or saving throw). And thirdly, there's a natural progression of actions that happen in-character which should dictate the order of die rolls.
So here's how I think dice order should be used:
(Note: Most people are using some form of this already, but in a pvp game like this, setting expectations can smooth over points of contention)
1) First, generate any reactive rolls.
Your opponent attempted Stealth. Your opponent cast a spell that forced a saving throw from you. These are reactive rolls. Logically, they actually would have happened during your opponent's turn, but if you find yourself needing to take actions that require generating multiple die rolls in one post, take care of these first.
2) Second, generate die in the order that your character takes the actions (and that you, as the player would roll dice to properly adjudicate those actions).
So if your opponent somehow requires two die rolls from you, roll them in the order your opponent took his actions.
And when you create your own gladiator's actions, generate the dice in the order your gladiator takes their actions. If Gary the Gladiator looks for his hidden opponent, then fires two arrows, the dice should be in that order.
Perception > Attack 1 > Attack 2
--- Now, the wrinkle of critical threats:
Let's say Gary the Gladiator previews the above post, generating the appropriate dice, and realizes that attack 1 is a natural 20, but Attack 2 is a natural 1.
Where should the critical confirmation roll fall in his die rolls?
I think the answer is simple. Attack 1 (if this were a IRL game) would have been rolled and revealed before Attack 2. So the player would need to make that confirmation roll immediately before moving onto rolling Attack 2.
So we apply the same logic here. It sucks that the player knows they are going to auto-fail the confirmation (given that they know that Attack 2 originally was a natural 1), but them's the breaks. The next roll chronologically and logically would be the confirmation, so he needs to edit in that roll, then generate another dice roll for Attack 2.
3) Third, in what order do we generate dice when two actions take place at the same time?
Let's say Steve the Stealther is scooting through a fog cloud, seeking his victim… er… opponent. He's Stealthing and Percepting at the same time, so which comes first?
I'd say – in situations like this, where there is no logical first or second – that they simply be generated in alphabetical order. Again, for consistency and fairness, Steve should roll his Perception first and his Stealth second. That way there can be no argument as to whether he favored one die roll over the other.
-----
So, I'd love to hear thoughts.
I think this is the fairest way of doing things. I want to rely on trust for my fellow players, but it's a pvp match in an online format… some level of competitive edge-gathering is to be expected. (As my father-in-law church minister says all the time, "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin")
I know it's certainly tempting for me to fudge dice order to tailor the outcome to my favor, but that's hugely unfair and uncool to my opponent. So this is the format I've adopted to help me stay on the straight and narrow.
Love to hear feedback or objections. Or, if we all think this is a good dice order discipline for this arena, I'm happy to see it move into use. :)
@everyone: feel free to see what's in the spoiler tags of that post (my round 4 post). You can calculate my concentration modifier anyway from what I posted and the greensting scorpion is on the SRD.
What happened there is kind of a bummer for my arena motivation :(
I'm definitely not calling into question your motives. It just brought to mind the rest of the issue of appropriately usign die rolls.
I certainly hope it doesn't discourage you from continuing. Mistakes happen, especially when there are things you don't realize (in this case, how adding in an additional die roll earlier in your post would affect the rest of your post).
I hope you stick around... I think Macho should get the benefit of that concentration of yours failing, but I don't believe you did it deliberately.
: Looks at wall of text :
I may have to consider changing my paizo profile handle. :(
The thing is, I edited Uhura's AoO in 58 minutes after I posted Kirk's action. If I took 2 more minutes to realize she had that AoO, in a sense I would have made that concentration check (which had a 15% chance of failue anyway). That's kind of frustrating!
what about situations with immediate action rolls that interrupt other rolls?
Good post btw. and I think you are right.
The only problem: things get strange when someone makes a mistake and things have to be rewinded. You suddenly use new rolls then because the older posts cannot be edited again.
[edit]I could have waited those 2 minutes deliberately and made a new post for Uhura's AoO, or "forget" about it all together. I think this should somehow be addressed.
what about situations with immediate action rolls that interrupt other rolls?
Hmmm. That's interesting.
I can't think of that many. I guess you could do one of a couple of things. Either you could wait to make the roll when the action would be triggered, or you could pre-roll it.
when pre-rolling it, I guess you'd have to consider if any action or intention is required for it to work. if there is no action required up-front (and I can't think of one that does), then I'd say simply make that roll last.
Let's take Snake Style. They get that Sense Motive as their AC. The most tamper-proof way to do it is to wait until your other defenses are actually beat, then put up a "X has been triggered" with the necessary rolls therein.
Readied Actions could be an exception because you're being really specific about what you're doing, so pre-rolling it could be appropriate (and speed play).
Though I guess pre-rolling the Snake Style Sense Motive could speed play as well.
The only problem: things get strange when someone makes a mistake and things have to be rewinded. You suddenly use new rolls then because the older posts cannot be edited again.
I'd say that's the job of the Arbiter. If a mistake was made,then it's their job to say how to fix it.
It could be as simple as "well, there is no harm done here, so let's move forward with the rolls as-is".
But if there's a case where one player's misunderstanding/misuse/mistake leads to their opponent's immediate or quick defeat, it needs to be changed.
There are more examples where fudging is easily possible: A threatened wizard casts a quickened and a standard action spell.
[edit]I could have waited those 2 minutes deliberately and made a new post for Uhura's AoO, or "forget" about it all together. I think this should somehow be addressed.
Thsi is the whole honors system thing. We either all play with fairness in mind, or this whole thing really isn't worth doing (in my opinion). If someone wants to find a way to cheat their opponent, they will.
If I'm the Arbiter, and I feel like someone is intentionally making this decision. I'll approach them. If they don't change their ways, I won't Arbiter for them anymore. And I sure won't go into an arena against them.
The problem is, that if there is an easy, hard to detect way to cheat, there are always people who will do it.
I think that is mostly possible using companions, maybe their rolls should be made by a third account (either a second account by his master, or some third party secret keeper).
I agree. But given that I'm not interested in writing up some kind of long social contract or try to come up with complicated ways of enforcing fair play, I think we just need to move forward ith everyone agreeing not to cheat (as well as what cheating means in this context).
Then, I think as the game progresses, we'll generally see people whose tactics always work, every time, regardless of opponent. A discussion can happen from there.
At the end of the day, I dn't want to play in a game where I don't trust my fellow players or the guy(s) running it. And if you do stuff that makes me think you're gaming the system, I'm probably going to ask you about it in a PM or something. If it continues, or I continue to feel like it's happening, I'll likely bring it up to the DM. If it still does't change, but everyone else is rocking along, I'll probably just bow out.
Not what I want to do with my time. I certainly don't want to complicate the game to that degree, as it usually ends up being more work for the DM.
|
If I realize that I've missed an attack or some roll needs to come above another, I simply add it to the bottom of the list of rolls under my "Dice" spoiler with the appropriate tag. Most of my dice go in that spoiler and I never add a roll above a previously rolled dice in an attempt to avoid this result-shift thing. If there is a question, all the dice are in the spoiler in the order rolled for Arbiter review, though they may not be in the order of the post's sequence of actions.
Does that make sence?
: shrugs :
The reality may be that we don't need this level of dice formatting expectations. I've not really seen much of anything that raises my eyebrows. Everyone seems to be playing on the up-and-up.
if nothing else, I guess I wanted to raise the issue. Then at least we all agree that we should be intentional about the way we post to be on the up-and-up.
If people don't want to worry about it, and would just rather say "let's call people out if we see shady behavior", that's fine with me, too.
I would prefer Eben's rules (dice in order of things happening). It makes things easier for Jehova and fudging sufficiently difficult that it's not too inviting. If anyone really has the need to make the effort: Winning here is just not important enough to make me care.
I just have strong feelings about cheating in general because I think it's something tolerated too much in our society (in cases where it actually matters, like politics).
i'll do my best to adhere to the system, too, then. At the very least, it will give us a chance to test that format.
If it's too rigid or unforgiving, we can make that call after a few fights of people trying it out.