Iron Gods AP with GM Mustache (Inactive)

Game Master Mustachioed

I didn't realize Jolga was going to be a necromancer. Does he have to be? That's a pretty contentious choice to just drop into the game, my friends. It's all very well to say "Let's play this out in RP," but if it's already a done deal I really don't want to have to have an argument in character that I'm going to lose no matter what. :/

Garfaulk, I think the camera is akin to a digital camera, in that it has a viewscreen that saves/displays photos.

As for necromancy, I felt this was foreshadowed by all the burning of bodies and spiritual talk. Charles and Sam look at all magic as basically the same: either useful or not.

That was supposed to be a joke, though in hindsight i don't even find it that amusing. As for necromancy, certainly a surprise, but I'm not against it too much? Just don't want it to bite us in the butt

Whether or not it was foreshadowed, I think we have to talk out of character about this, because it's a choice that affects all of us. If Jolga is a necromancer, we are all necromancers by association. To keep playing this game, I have to find a way to make Zeke "okay" with fighting and traveling beside undead servants. It means I have to change my conception of my character to cooperate with the group. That's a major change to the "feel" of the party and the adventure path, so I feel like we should talk about it. And if it's just a fait accompli, well, I think that kind of sucks.

I certainly don't consider it something that has to happen, Zeke. If the party that Jolga shouldn't bring undead along, then he won't. Let's keep the RP going. Obviously, I want to do it because it's very useful and it fits with Jolga as a character but I'm not going to be upset whatsoever if the group decides against it. I was hoping the fact that Jolga raises non-humanoids who were our enemies would make it a little more palatable.

I don't think Sam/Charles was trying to shut you down, btw, Zeke. Just speaking in his lovable character. :D But I'm sure you get that better than me.

Ugh.

I get what you're saying, Zeke. No one wants interference in playing their character. But on the other hand, asking Jolga to alter how he was going to play his character isn't fair either. Charles is fine with it but if the group decides against it and Jolga is cool with that, that's fine too. I think there is value in rp-ing party conflict, but ooc discussions are important too.

If one of you was a paladin or worshipper of Pharasma or Sarenrae or something like that, I would say necromancy would be grounds for a major party conflict.

But this party not very paladin like, it has always been a very practical group, and Zeke worships an insane god. It doesn't make much sense for this to be big issue.

I feel like no one asked me if it was okay with me, and that sucks. But it sounds like the will of the group is that it's fine, so I guess I've got to figure out how to go along with it.

It reminds me of at the beginning. Ton and Wulf hate robots. Yet learned to understand that, like with people, some are good, some are bad. We've had two android allies. If we found out Jolga was a Dhampir, for example.

Look, I get it, necromancy is cool from a system perspective. It's powerful. I love playing necromancers. But I feel like you have to get buy-in from the rest of the players to do it. If this were an evil game like Way of the Wicked, no question!

But this is an established game with characters that have been around for a long time, and I feel like this is a pretty big thing to just spring on us without asking. It feels like I have to have a meta-argument with the group both in character and out of character about whether or not this is evil and something that Chaotic Good Zeke is even allowed to be uncomfortable with.

Yes, we all are kinda gray characters, but none of us are actually evil and it seems like we've shied away from downright evil acts in the past. I get wanting to massage the game so that we can get away with both being paladins and scoundrels at the same time. But animate dead, like summon monster, is contentious. It's a lot harder to make it work in a mixed party. And unlike summon monster, animate dead lasts for a really, really long time.

I've seen games break up because of this. You try to compromise between the two factions, keeping the undead outside or burying them, casting disguise spells to make them look human, managing all of your minions so that your control cycles and you can quickly kill the ones that overflow the bucket. You start splitting the party a lot. But it's clear that something is wrong, and that it has become two games, one with undead and one without them. And the second group starts losing interest, you know? It's hard to see yourself as Big Damn Heroes when one of you is a Reaver.

I feel like no one asked me if it was okay with me, and that sucks. But it sounds like the will of the group is that it's fine, so I guess I've got to figure out how to go along with it.

I'm not sure where you are coming from, though. It is a game decision, not a real life out-of-character decision.

In game, Zeke doesn't have the moral standing to oppose it, I think, based on the character thus far. Not that you are a bad guy, but Zeke hasn't really been a good guy, either.

However, it is fine, in game, if you aren't happy with Jolga, to continue to protest it, but that should come with perhaps a deeper introspection of your beliefs and why it bothers you.

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edit: I just saw your longer post, after I typed that above. I have seen PCs leave games because in game players don't agree with in game players.

And I have also seen players leave because the real life person gets mad at another real life person.

This is completely an in-game moral question, and should be addressed in game, is my belief. Zeke DOESN'T have to be happy. It could give him a very interesting character arc in fact.

Huh? I feel like I've consistently played Zeke Chaotic Good with emphasis on the Good. He wants to set such a good example that his insane god is moved to reward him by including his family in the deranged afterlife that Zeke believes will come to pass. He argues with his god on their behalf. He uses his crazy magic primarily to heal his family, he crafts stuff for them selflessly, and he tries to help underdogs. He doesn't preach at his friends, because he can see it makes them uncomfortable, but he always advocates for their inclusion in "heaven" so to speak. I'm surprised this hasn't come across.

GM said what I was typing but way better. I can only add that requiring players to run their character decisions by everyone isn't a precedent I want to set. This can be an interesting problem for Zeke. Does he see undeath as stealing from Groetus? I play a Groetan(?) Priest in another game ...there's not much in the ways of central doctrine. Some dig necromancy, others don't.

Joe, I'm not saying the players have to run all their character decisions by everyone, come on. I'm saying that if I made a necromancer character to join a game, it might be nice to mention that before it came up in game. Because springing it on people in game can cause big conflicts, where players have to question if it's worth digging in their heels to say no! We all have to play characters that can be okay with necromancy to have necromancy in the game. If we'd talked about it before it was already decided, I'm sure we could have all figured it out.

Yes, I will figure out how to make Zeke okay with it. Yes, it could be a fun character arc. I am disappointed I didn't get to make that decision myself, though.

Ninja'd. Editing.

Sorry, Zeke. I didn't think it would be that big of a problem. For the record, Jolga isn't built to be a necromancer. Not by a long shot. So if it didn't work out, he'd be fine. Particularly, I recognize that as a new player I should be very sensitive to the existing dynamic in the group. That's why I will drop the necromancy if the group requires it. The party doesn't have to be ok with my necromancy.

Wulf, Garfaulk, Ton, if you're offering a totally free opinion, are you opposed to the necromancy? I hope you didn't feel coerced into tolerating it.

I certainly concede the point that Zeke is probably the furthest on the good spectrum for the whole group. But I can't get over the fact that the god you worship is crazy, and this has never made sense.

And also to the point Charles just made, yeah, we aren't going to set a precedent that character decisions have to be made by consensus.

At work, I normally collaborate with people I don't like, but I don't quit my job over it. It could be the same with Zeke. "The Greater Good" is something that certainly should be considered by a Chaotic Good player.

I am disappointed I didn't get to make that decision myself, though.

But here's the thing though, life is 85% dealing with decisions you have no control over. So the role-playing is a reflection of that, dealing with decisions other players make.

Totally cool if Zeke isn't happy, but if Zeke wanted to leave the party over it, that doesn't seem like something he would do either, because he has bigger fish to fry.

Sorry, Zeke. I didn't think it would be that big of a problem.

Thanks, Jolga. I appreciate that.

I do get where your coming from on it causing problems within games as now we do often need to play the minigame known as "hide the massive undead" whenever we get to a new place, which will inevitably slow us down in terms of gameplay. And in some games, that turns a single character decision into something the whole group now has to deal with regularly. We go from wildcards who stay just on the goodside of the law to actively keeping a secret or flaunting something that will earn us distrust. So yes there's in-game issues, but altering how we play the game is an out-of-game decision as well. I think when Zeke mentioned he didn't get a choice, he means he didn't get a say in whether or not how we play is changed.

I certainly concede the point that Zeke is probably the furthest on the good spectrum for the whole group. But I can't get over the fact that the god you worship is crazy, and this has never made sense.

Like any religious follower, Zeke picks and chooses parts of his theology that resonate with him. Essentially, Groetus is an apocalyptic god. He will destroy the world (Very Soon Now) and make it into something better. All the souls associated with other faiths will go away, leaving Groetus's faithful to inherit the earth. Zeke accepts that as the central message of his faith.

Pharasma keeps Groetus at bay by feeding Him atheists, so Zeke reasons that the atheists will be in the afterlife too. So since others who don't worship Groetus can be there, he hopes that means his friends and family can be there too. And since a crazy god is driven by whims and whimsy, so Zeke believes that if he is a faithful servant, his god will grant him boons in the afterlife just as he does in this life. Protecting his friends and family, for example, or at least letting him do so without punishing him for it. That's basically it.

I do get where your coming from on it causing problems within games as now we do often need to play the minigame known as "hide the massive undead" whenever we get to a new place, which will inevitably slow us down in terms of gameplay. And in some games, that turns a single character decision into something the whole group now has to deal with regularly. We go from wildcards who stay just on the goodside of the law to actively keeping a secret or flaunting something that will earn us distrust. So yes there's in-game issues, but altering how we play the game is an out-of-game decision as well. I think when Zeke mentioned he didn't get a choice, he means he didn't get a say in whether or not how we play is changed.

It shouldn't change the way you play. I won't let it get to that point.

Timezone-wise, I was just finishing in work and the gym when all this really came about so aside from my first post being shocked it was outside, I haven't had a chance to contribute to the debate.

About to make the evening meal for myself and my gf so this is a quick poat.

Ton isn't that cool with it, especially long term. Will elaborate later.

Same as Ton, only just seeing all this now. I wanted to post how I felt Wulf would react to it all before reading this.

I can see it from both points of view. As I said in the game, the undead is only for this place I won't tell people what to do but I wouldn't want that walking into torch with us.

I've played wulf as losing his edge a bit in torch, but now outside he starting to sharpen up a bit and this undead while he isn't happy may just be an extream they need. He is still thinking about Val and what she would think if she saw this.

I also think we can get some good ingame RP out of this. I don't want anyone to feel pushed in a certain direction, to feel left out or that this takes anything away from their character. Zeke if you don't like this please don't just accept it.

I don't think anyone should be told how to RP their character. I've done some stupid stuff as Wulf and still will, there are times where I've held back because I didn't want to upset the group. He's headstrong and doesn't think about his actions.

So please let's see what we can get out of this in game. I don't want anyone to leave.

Remember that time when Charles just refused to fight that undead kasatha and Wulf got slammed so bad?

Heh. I remember thinking--- WHY ISN'T CHARLES ATTACKING! I'M REALLY ANGRY RIGHT NOW.

But, that was his choice at the time. I am all for playing this out in game, and Jolga has said very clearly, ultimately he will go along with the party.

It makes for a fun bit of gameplay.

Damn, that's some tasty rp, fellas.

This is a really strong group of rp'ers in my opinion.

I sometimes get jealous over some of the work you guys do since my character is so taciturn. But I'm hoping that Charles and Samuel eventually show themselves as it were.

I'm sort of waiting to see if Charles wnd Ton scouted yesterday as that will determine spell prep, etc.

I assumed the plan was to go as a group and then Charles would move ahead. You probably don't want him to travel 4 hours away by himself.

Agreed your interpretation was much funnier!

Ok so did we have a little description of the creature as a basis for knowledge checks? Was "it flies around and collects stuff" enough? XD

It kills everyone who gets close enough to figure out what it is.

Ok good to know. Will prep accordingly.

Prepping: Guidance, stabilize, detect magic, detect poison
Pass without trace, heightened awareness, shadow trap, shadow trap, shadow trap, magic weapon
2: Resist energy, resist energy, barkskin, summon nature's ally II
3: Fly, prayer

Battle spirit as well. Who needs AC buffs?

The explosive-- we will say you have been given proper instruction.

I am interested to know if the group plans on climbing the tall tower, or if you are passing the side-quest by.

Oh sorry, I completely misunderstood. For some reason I thought this tower was the dish tower

Not yet... refer to the map if you haven't looked at it in a while.

Poor Garfaulk is WAY over on the other side of Scrapwall on roll20. The middle of the west wall. XD

You guysare just too fast for me!

Has Jolga stopped preparing bless? Zeke switched to magic weapon so as not to conflict, but if Jolga isn't casting it Zeke will gladly fill that void.

I didn't prepare bless today because I went battle shaman, which provides a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls and doesn't stack with bless. I'm happy to keep preparing bless on days that I don't choose battle shaman.

Ah, got it. Not sure what Zeke should have prepared instead, since bless doesn't stack. Maybe shield of faith?

That'd be cool!

Uh oh Ton, you have me lost again with your Magus-ness. I think you need to--everytime you post-- explain it a little better.

Like: Fire damage (pistol), cold damage (from I don't even know what), electric damage (same), and snowball (spellstrike). The snowball was spellstrike right, not spellcombat? So it goes with the 13 to hit.

Also, if you are outside your ranged increment, I do believe you are firing at normal AC, so the whole thing does miss...

Am I getting most of that right?

Now that we are all in Prevail, and I have been spending quite a lot of time on Discord (and also with my kingmaker game), I am getting to the Paizo forums less and less.

I could be much more responsive on this game if we go to discord. Thoughts on that?

I would be more responsive as well but I'm fine with it here on the forums.

It's ok, Magi are complicated as Hell.

So the inferno pistol does fire damage. I can use my arcane pool to improve the magical enhancement of a weapon by 2 and can use that to pick weapon abilities so I pick frost and shock which both add 1d6 damage of the appropriate element.

It's effectively a +1 frost, shock inferno pistol right now.

Also, the laser sight triples my usual range increment for a single spellstrike shot.

It's the first time I've used it.

ah yes, the laser sight.

Well, though I'm reluctant to leave the forums, they do suck and are not notifying me right now. And I am on discord all the time for Prevail!. I'm willing to transfer if everyone else is.

I could be up for it, though i need to figure out how to mute the other channels lol. Also, happy birthday Charles!