Yeah. I've found frequently that it's better to play a charisma 8 character who doesn't know when to keep their mouth shut, than to play an 18 charisma character who is 'quiet, exotic, and unique'. Especially on the boards. Certain character types just don't work. Bonus points if you're the type that actually cares about the other people and tries to learn about them and their past without it devolving into a 'my backstory, your backstory' thing. It definitely takes more effort, but it's much more of what I'm looking for. :)
Barring that, someone who will continually seek to advance the plot is always a great addition.
I do not enjoy the idea of DMing gestalt. It's just not a challenge I'm interested in. :P You guys already run circles around me in build ideas and concepts without being able to draw from nearly double the options.
Hell's Rebels is the latest AP from Paizo. It's a very chaotic-good slanted campaign that occurs on the outskirts of Cheliax.
I've seen concepts you've each posted elsewhere. :)
*Amused look*
I try to keep most of my ideas fairly normal. XD
Ah. Well...
Yeaaah
I believe in the "damn good reason" rule of adventuring.
Meaning that if you choose the life of a career adventurer you better have a damn good reason to believe you'd survive
Or a damn good reason not to have a choice. The latter of which only works for short games.
Otherwise I have difficulty suspending disbelief that the person would choose such a dangerous career. For the genre savvy ones this goes double whenever the phrase "fate of the world" gets tossed around.
I can reign myself in, but if you think you're not up to it you have the final say in that regard
When I reign myself in with character building I usually have to have them overestimate their abilities or find something they care about more than the massive chance of painful death and unmarked graves.
I just can't play lvl 1 wizards with a 10 point buy for example.
Could someone link me the player's guide to hell's rebels and/or tell me what the characters would know at the beginning of the game
The really short version is that you're in a place called Kintargo. It's about as chaotic of a town as Cheliax has. It's full of artists, opera, and all that sort of stuff. Recently, the Order of the Godclaw got -wrecked- by an Iomedean sect that stole an artifact and are waging war against Cheliax as a whole. People rose up... and Cheliax responded with Martial Law. This worked fairly well, driving the Iomedean crazies out into the hinterlands, where they can't do any real harm... but it also taxed the people.
Kintargo, in particular, is now host to An Asmodean Inquisitor from central Cheliax, who has decided to pin Kintargo under his thumb. It certainly does not help that this man is a Thrune, with all of the negative connotations that go along with that.
Lots of pretty terrible stuff has been going on since he arrived as well. Terribly unreasonable laws, the Mayor tucking tail and running, several establishments being firebombed... so on and so forth.
Due to the nature of the story, Evil characters won't fit in very well, and lawful may have a few problems. Lawful is less of a problem than evil, though. Very early on, you'll establish contacts with a chaotic good rebel faction that you're destined to become the leaders of. The player's guide has a ton of suggestions for you. The biggest suggestion I have is: Don't worship a devil. :)
It has suggestions for gods you might want to worship, campaign traits, and all that good stuff. In the backmatter of the book, it also has a lot of stuff regarding how the Rebellion will work. There are six slots for leadership within the ranks. Think of it kind of like Kingmaker, but with far fewer jobs. :)
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I've only ever had three characters worship Devils/demons, and two of them barely count as one of them was worshiping himself, and another was a child worshiping the grim reaper
So no problems there,
Hmm I could bring out my paladin of freedom or build something new.
Going to read the guide and decide then
Fair warning: Sources are Paizo Only, except where I expressly allow it. :)
I think Scath could work. Worshipping Cernunnos, his former Lady's god. The Stag Lord would certainly be one to want to see Thrune cast down.
I would think he'd most likely be tagging along with somoene, either an NPC or a PC (If one of the PCs is Elven, Druidic, or a devotee of Cernunnos).
Natural Born Leader trait would recover the issue of his low charisma within the campaign, treating it as 14. He'd work good as a Sentinel, as he has high stats scattered around, so he'd be able to be flexible, and a Sentinel doesn't need to be in the face of the populace. And can even do well 'hiding in plain sight' as an animal companion. Spymaster would also work, as cats think like spies, especially if he can recruit some non-standard spies (sentient animals, monstrous types who can pass for animals, etc). Obviously strategist works as well, since it's not stat dependent and just requires someone who can think.
Sorry, I'd have responded sooner, but Paizo is making me want to murder people. (I need my fix!)
The player's handbook actually has a great way right inside of it for how to do a 'Paladin of Freedom' style character. It'd be a bit delayed... but...
Milani has a Deific Obedience with Sentinels that protects you, as a character, from Compulsions and makes you immune to Charm and Fear. You wouldn't get that until 11th level, though, assuming you went straight for it. All the prestige class requires is 5 BAB and Weapon Focus (Morningstar) to gain access. :)
As for Cernunnos, there's not a lot (especially in the first book) to play off of that character. From what little I've read, he often leaps before he looks. A lot of the first book is going to be 'looking'. That's by no means saying it's a 'bad' choice, it's just me forewarning that Cernunnos isn't gonna really come up much. Restoring the natural order will fit in a bit later, though. :)
It is also worth noting that most all of the first five books are going to be in urban environments, from what little information I do have (remember, I only have the first book at this time!). I expect the last book to change that up, but I can't be 100% certain without seeing it.
Likewise, bear in mind, that the choices the team will make matters. You'll be in one city for basically the entire adventure. Your actions will have positive and negative impacts, and they're not always clear. What is clear, though, are the things you should expect.
In general, killing is bad. It's not the worst thing in the world, and it can be unavoidable, but bloody streets means unhappy Kintargo.
People matter. I'll do my best not to shove NPCs in your face, but I'd love for the characters to develop attachments. You're going to be the leaders of a rebellion, which means you're going to be a face for the organization... for the people you trust.
You will be up against a massive lawful evil regime that wants to absolutely ruin you as people... but can't crash their full weight upon you without legitimizing you. Don't do insane things and call it chaotic good, because you will still get your head cut off. :o
I plan to work with each player to integrate their concepts into the world more thoroughly. I already have an NPC in mind (or two) that I think Scath will enjoy (based on seeing how Scath works), but they come up a bit later.
Scath did as much in cities as he did in wilderness in the previous campaign, so that's actually not an issue. Looking at the player's guide, Scath actually makes a VERY good assassin, as he has the skills to hide bodies per the AP (it's a stealth roll to hide the body).
Bloody streets is unhappy Kintargo. Missing and presumed AWOL Thrune (sp?) soldiers on the other hand... Much happier Kintargo. :) (Basically hiding a body is a stealth check, and Scath tends to have a 17 or so to start).
ALternately (or also) Scath would work good with urchins, just because he likes kids. An older teenager to 'pretend' to be his druid to run around town with would work well (once he get's leadership, he can take on a druid that has a domain instead of an AC, and no one will suspect a thing).
Well, just remember: Your size bonus won't apply to hiding a body, unless you change its size somehow. Like... by dismembering it. ;)
I was actually going to ask about if you wanted to be someone's 'animal companion' from the start. It'd raise a lot less hackles if you had a pet human. :)
There are a lot of options for who/what/where your pet human is, and it'll add a little bit to your character concept depending. Likewise, who the -players- choose to involve will have a lot of impact on how the story plays out.
As an example, there's a section of Kintargo that's basically Tiefling-only. And it plays out very much like the 'inner city' you would expect it to be.
Likewise, as the player's guide states, there's space for Bellflower folks to be involved... so on and so forth. :)
Yeah, as I said above, he could be tagging along with someone, likely whoever his pet is (not a cohort, obviously, probably a hireling or something). Or it could be a PC, depending on who plays what.
If no PC makes sense, then a 14yo hiringly warrior or adept who can pass for a druid or ranger might work. Adept who can cast speak with animal would be best, if possible. They could be Tiefling.
Also, side note. I -do- intend to use Fractional Base Bonuses. It keeps Saving Throws more in line, while benefiting BAB a bit. It'll also open up your options quite a bit, since you'll have some Animal HD adding into your fractional BAB. :)
Alright, do you guys have any blacklists in mind? People you absolutely don't want me to invite to this? I'm thinking about just skipping the recruitment process.
Also, Kittiface. Do you have a way to make Scath level 1? Or should I try to adjust the adventure a bit?
Well, I should probably go back to the start given they've actually put out stats for a Lynx since he was originally made. Going back to a low CR is harder than just adding a few levels to the previous build.
A Lynx is CR 2. If we go with the Young template, that's a -1 CR, which would come off at level 2. So he'd basically start off as an awakened Cub, rather than a full grown Lynx.
There are a couple of people that don't like my GM style on here, so not sure if that matters. I've played in games with them without issues.
I'm less concerned with people who dislike you than people you dislike. :) Cause I'm asking the folks I'm inviting the same question, after I know if there'll be problems.
I think I can probably start everyone at level 2, to solve that problem. I'll have to make a few minor adjustments... but I think people would vastly prefer that. As it also allows you to have a bit of an origin of your own, rather than just a backstory. Unless you're a lynx cub. :P
Are you okay with that?
Sure, I'm fine with it.
We'll need to know the character build requirements (points vs roll, traits, races, etc).
Yup. I've been working through those.
Level: 2
Point Buy: 22. That's not a typo.
Alignment: No Evil.
Races: Just ask. Don't go 'I'm gonna play a centaur!'. I'm mostly laid back here. Just remember that being something really weird will make you stand out.
HP: Max.
Skills: Normal + 2 Background Skills per level.
Gold: 1000
Traits: 2, Drawbacks allowed but they don't get you anything (No bonus trait). One should be from the campaign traits.
Sources: Paizo Only (but feel free to ask, the worst I can say is no).
Optional Mechanics:
Fractional Base Bonuses
Automated Bonus Progression
Combat Stamina free for fighters, Feat for others.
Variant Multiclassing allowed.
Wound Thresholds.
Yuck, ok, rebuilding him using the Lynx get's complicated. Originally he was built as a housecat with the giant template and the awakened animal template. I still have to apply the awakened animal template to awaken him.
It might be easier to build him as a race instead. Let me go look at the race builder.
As it is, awakened would be a +1 CR, so I'd still need to go with Young to balance that out at CR 2.
Sorry, Kittiface. I knew it'd be a bit messy. That's why I made sure level 2 was high enough.
With you being relaxed about race... I'm going to go look at fey...
See what I mean? Inch, Mile. :P
I more meant -normal- races, though I'm cool with exceptions.
I seem to have overinvited and may wind up with two tables.
Ok, so, doing it as a race would be :
Type : 3RP Magical Beast (Assume same as Monstrous Humanoid in cost)
Size : Medium (because)
Speed : Normal
Stats : 4RP Advanced (+2 Str, Dex, Con), +4 Int, -2 CHA
Natural Armor : 2RP +1 Nat Armor
Improved Natural Armor : 1RP +1 Nat Armor
Camouflage : 1 RP +4 Grasslands Stealth
Fast : 1 RP +10 Movement
Bite : 2 RP 1d4 Bite
Claws : 2 RP 2x1d6 Claw
No Arms : -4RP (Opposite of Multi-Armed)
Climb : 2 RP (20 ft Climb Speed)
Total RP : 14 RP (About as powerful as a Tiefling/Aasimer/Drow).
Even if the no arms were not worth as much, it's less than a Wyrwood. That would make him about the same as other starting characters, and resolve the issue of racial hitdice. No pounce which is a shame.
Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the magical beast knows at least one language, but can't necessarily speak). Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but are sometimes merely bizarre in appearance or habits. A magical beast has the following features.
d10 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for magical beasts: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, Swim.
Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Low-light vision.
Proficient with its natural weapons only.
Proficient with no armor.
Magical beasts breathe, eat, and sleep.
Now, off to see about building it as a monstrous PC
14 RP is fine. Especially since Camouflage won't see much use. Add in the fact he can't speak (if you so choose), and that balances it rather nicely, I think. :)
LYNX : CR 2
Small Animal Low-Light, Scent
Stats : +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
AC : +1 Natural AC
Hit Dice : 2
Speed 40, Climb 20ft
+4 Stealth in Undergrowth or Tall Grass
+8 Acrobtics
Pounce, Rake
2 Claw 1d3+2 Plus Grab, bite +4 (1d4+2)
+4 Grapple
+4 vs Trip
Awaken : CR +1
+1d3 Cha (+2?)
3d6 Int (average 11 -> +0)
+2 Hit Dice
(Per Monster advance, increase size to Med?)
Darkvision
Young :
Size decrease by one category (Tiny or Small?)
; AC reduce natural armor by –2 (minimum +0);
Attacks decrease damage dice by 1 step;
Ability Scores –4 Strength, –4 Con, +4 size bonus to Dex.
CR -1
Final Stats : CR 2
Hit Dice : 4
Speed 40, climb 20
Stats : +8 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Size : Small (Small-> Medium -> Small)
Natural AC : +0
Low-Light, Scent, Darkvision
Pounce, Rake
Bite : 1d3
+4 Stealth in Undergrowth or Tall Grass
+4 Stealth (Size)
+8 Acrobtics (Racial)
Pounce, Rake
2 Claw 1d3+2 Plus Grab, bite +4 (1d4+2)
+4 Grapple
+4 vs Trip
Would not get a class level until 4th level (3rd level takes young off). Would gain one additional class level at 5.5th level.
One last option...
I wouldn't do HD size advancement. I've never really cared for that rule.
At the moment, I really like the 14 RP build. No speech helps to keep it in line, and if we treat it as having the same slots as a Lynx, it's -totally- in line with everything else. (Tail rings allowed, of course :p)
Use Druid AC stats :
Starting Statistics:
Size Medium;
Speed 40 ft.;
AC +1 natural armor;
Attack bite (1d6),
2 claws (1d4);
Ability Scores Str +2, Dex +6, Con +2, Wis +4
Special Attacks rake (1d4);
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
7th-Level Advancement:
Size Large;
AC +2 natural armor;
Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6);
Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4;
Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6) .
So, those are the 3 options (Lynx's are a weird sort of hybrid between small and great cat, but are under great cats, so used the large cat from druid, as it matched the lynx closer except for size).
Which would you prefer?
The 14 RP race build honestly seems the least disruptive. It's still on the 'strong' side, but it's also countered by the fact you can't really ever be a spellcaster (Except psychic. Note to self. Make a Sentient Cat Mesmerist...) amongst other things. Do you think that's cool with you? :)
That's fine.
I should note though, that any species that doesn't 'speak' can still be a spell caster, as they use whatever sounds they naturally produce to be a caster. Same with making motions. That's why Blink Dogs can take levels of caster, they use their own language and their tails for somatics. Same with Naga sorcerers (who have no hands or legs!). :-
Thread on subject, including comments from two developers and James J.
:P But are you gonna be a caster? :)
Thanks for the link :)
Do you have any ideas so far, Pierce, Hecate?
Wasn't planning on it, but you never know, a sorcerer dip might not be a bad idea. Or one of those things that manifest energy. Imagine conjuring fire on natural weapon attacks. :) Or better yet, cold. :)
For Hell's Rebels? Still thinkin' on it - been kinda busy today. XD And he's planning on... Druid?
Kineticist... I'll have to look at Kinetic Fist, but I don't think it'd work very well for you. Sorry Kitty.
Here's a link if you guys want to Dot it, and discuss a bit.
At the moment, we have a Kineticist, a Kittyface, and a Mesmerist. Plus four mostly undecideds. :)
I'm not opposed to you giving the Fey as a Race Point class a try. I may want to tweak it a bit, alongside you. Keep it below Aasimar level in 'actual' power and we're good. :)
Since I derped and didn't respond to the other part: I am only okay with templates when they are DM bestowed. They're very wily in how they interact with stats and such. I'd very much prefer you avoided templates, as even +1 is typically extremely skewed.
Oh, yeah, it reaaaaaaally depends on the template. XD Truth is, though, most of them aren't really meant for players to take - they're for adjusting monsters.
(The best templates for players tend to be those with few or no changes in ability scores, only offering access to new powers - ideally at a scaling rate, rather than all at once. The Psychic template is a pretty good example of what might be appropriate for players.)
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Since I derped and didn't respond to the other part: I am only okay with templates when they are DM bestowed. They're very wily in how they interact with stats and such. I'd very much prefer you avoided templates, as even +1 is typically extremely skewed.
oh so he can be a cat but fey creature or elemental infused is too much
Edit: huh psychic looks interesting,Also I've narrowed down my choices between bard, magus and ranger.
Well, I meant 'Sprite or Nixie or something' is too much. A cat is something you see pretty regularly in the pathfinder world. A sprite or pixie completely violates the 'don't stand out' thing. And also come with built in spells that are rather nasty to deal with in some cases and flight in almost all cases anyone ever wants to play. :)
Likewise, an RP race that's Fey doesn't really bother me much at all, so long as it isn't just weird, and we'd still have to work on the exact numbers and effects.
And finally, yes. I would rather Scath, who did excellently with my DM style as a cat, get to keep playing a cat. It has worked in the past. :)
Oh so he can be a cat but fey creature or elemental infused is too much
No templates involved in the final build... per GM preference...
I prefer to think of it as 'don't fix what isn't broken'. And even then, I do think a little bit of broken was fixed. I think, overall, your character will be a little weaker without the Racial HD and Template, yeah?
Also, Psychic -is- cool. But I think it'd definitely fit a lot better in a campaign designed with that in mind. For example, if I allowed templates, everyone could just take Psychometer, not change their HD at all, and gain...
+5 to 5 skills, at will 'detect magic, alignment, poison and legend lore', 3/day 'more detects', 1/day 'even more detects'.
That's why templates are to be handed out by DMs in my book. :)
Side note: I really want to be a psychometer. I love me some object reading!
Not really, the racial levels cost 2 levels of class levels (3 at first), that's a huge loss at low level, and a major loss higher levels (as you pointed out earlier to someone, getting everything class related 3 or 2 levels later than everyone else, never getting a level 20 bonus, etc). If you look back through his games, Scath's never been the major damage dealer, except by default (as in, he was the only one attacking).