Edicts and Anathemas for ancestries in Starfinder 2e

There has been lots of debate about the physical qualities that are needed to keep the Cantina feel in Starfinder 2e. In Starfinder we deal with lots of different strange species and truly alien cultures, which got me thinking about the Edicts and Anathemas rules in Pathfinder Remaster would be a great way to show differences in species or ancestries cultures and beliefs. These could be broken down further in heritages or even in backgrounds or archetypes as well.

For example, shirren might have making choices as an Edict and mind control as an Anathema, also not showing their private arms. Elves might have removing their mask as an Anathema. These are just common examples from things we already know but Edicts and Anathemas for ancestries could be a good place to allow some really gonzo ideas that wouldn't affect the game mechanic balance. Skittermanders would have the always be helpful Edict and for an Anathema maybe refused to eat with any of their hands that touched weapons in the last day, they might even skip eating if they used all six with weapons. Lot of possibilities for Anathemas and multi-hand use limitation, or just strange customs.

Edicts and Anathemas could be worked into the Society or Beliefs section of an ancestry or the rates and stats sidebar.

Random skittermander thought, how do skittermanders keep their houses safe without locks? Six door knobs that have to be turned simultaneously.

That reminds me less of the cantina in Star Wars: A New Hope and more of the 1st episode of The Mandelorian. In the catina we see exotic aliens of many shapes, but the customers are pretty much acting like a Earthling crowd of outlaws and lowlifes and the aliens playing in the band act like Earthling musicians. No obvious cultural differences. In contrast, Din Djarin AKA The Mandalorian has a strict code to never remove his helment in front of other people. He says, "This is the way." He works with alien Kuiil who has a strong philosophy of his own, marked by his phrase, "I have spoken."

We don't know anything about Kuiil's species, but Din Djarin is a human. It is the cultural part of his ancestry that gives him his code, and that culture is a tiny minority of the Star Wars humans. Not even all Mandalorians follow the Children of the Way in which Din Djarin was raised. So would the Mandalorian Edicts and Anathema be the strict Children of the Way code or would it be a looser code?

Ysoki anathemas: wasting food, throwing out perfectly good spare parts

Edicts: Recyling/upcycling, repairing, doing favors for family.

That reminds me less of the cantina in Star Wars: A New Hope and more of the 1st episode of The Mandelorian. In the catina we see exotic aliens of many shapes, but the customers are pretty much acting like a Earthling crowd of outlaws and lowlifes and the aliens playing in the band act like Earthling musicians. No obvious cultural differences. In contrast, Din Djarin AKA The Mandalorian has a strict code to never remove his helment in front of other people. He says, "This is the way." He works with alien Kuiil who has a strong philosophy of his own, marked by his phrase, "I have spoken."

We don't know anything about Kuiil's species, but Din Djarin is a human. It is the cultural part of his ancestry that gives him his code, and that culture is a tiny minority of the Star Wars humans. Not even all Mandalorians follow the Children of the Way in which Din Djarin was raised. So would the Mandalorian Edicts and Anathema be the strict Children of the Way code or would it be a looser code?

Star Wars: A New Hope vs. The Mandelorian. is a great comparison. Also "Not even all Mandalorians follow the Children of the Way in which Din Djarin" is a great example of where having Edicts and Anathema could be part of a heritage and not the main ancestry in some cases. Edicts and Anathemas could also be part of an organization you chose to join like Grugu deciding to be a Mandalorian instead of a Jedi.

Ysoki anathemas: wasting food, throwing out perfectly good spare parts

Edicts: Recyling/upcycling, repairing, doing favors for family.

Those are great Ysoki Edicts and Anathemas. One of my favorite anathemas is never walk across an open space, is you have to cross it run, and if it's too far stick extremely close to the tallest person in the party. Old family tales about giant bird things killing half of the family while crossing an open field still give me nightmares. Which leads to the Edicts always staying near cover, and always sleep concealed. My character never sleeps in a bed they much prefer a hidden space behind a maintenance panel, which is also a great place for all the perfectly good spare parts you mentioned.

In the remaster of PF2e Edicts and Anathema were meant for a replacement for alignment but they have so many other possible uses.

Ysoki anathemas: wasting food, throwing out perfectly good spare parts

Edicts: Recyling/upcycling, repairing, doing favors for family.

Also don't dis granny if you know whats good for you

Star Trek's prime directive is a great example of Anathemas for an organization.

Star Trek's prime directive is a great example of Anathemas for an organization.

As is the Hippocratic Oath.

I think Edicts and Anathemas are culture, but there's room as well for Insticts that are the same for everyone with a particular ancestry because they're wired into the character's biology (or construction and design for Constructs).

Instincts would function the same as Edicts and Anathemas but would be strictly bound to ancestry because they come from what you are not how you were raised. For example a character with a predatory ancestry couldn't choose to not feel a powerful urge to chase fleeing enemies, and a character with diabolic ancestry couldn't choose to not want to manipulate and deceive.

They already cover this with the “you probbaly/others probbaly think” sidebars.

Aside from that I don’t see, nor want, Paizo to implement an enforced genetics/instincts mindsets. Players can take care that easily enough on their own through plying that specific character, like they always have. And if they “step outside”, that’s the entire point of playing a free willed creature in a fantasy game. Have fun.

They already cover this with the “you probbaly/others probbaly think” sidebars.

Aside from that I don’t see, nor want, Paizo to implement an enforced genetics/instincts mindsets. Players can take care that easily enough on their own through plying that specific character, like they always have. And if they “step outside”, that’s the entire point of playing a free willed creature in a fantasy game. Have fun.

Well... yeah. That's the point: to AVOID enforced mindsets. The suggested edicts and anathema that pair with ancestries are meant to help the player get an overall understanding of an ancestry's dominant cultural mores, giving them a point of reference so they can decide whether to play within or outside those norms.

For instance, the vesk entry in Field Test 3 lists "battle honorably" and "keep private emotions in check" as popular edicts (keyword: popular). Upon reading that, a player can immediately grok that the majority of vesk are expected to exhibit stoic pride and physical prowess. This makes it super easy to imagine a vesk who isn't that, who finds macho posturing tiresome and wears their emotions on their sleeves. Said player could also start to imagine the blowback they might get from their parents and peers, how they might've gotten bullied for their apparent weakness, how they chose to stay passionate and kind despite feeling like the entire Veskarium was telling them to change... and how they might've felt relief when they moved to a fringe colony or more diverse settlement where having feelings and hating fighting was regarded as normal.

The player than writes down their own personal edicts: "unapologetically be myself" and "stand up for those who don't fit in." That's some incredible roleplay guidance right there, all because the player saw a suggested character trait and went, "nah." Which is not only allowed by the rules, but encouraged!

I do agree that having popular edicts/anathema at the ancestry level at all can easily lead to monocultural portrayals of beings whose histories and civilizations are allegedly as deep and complex as humanity's, but I don't think that unfortunate trope can be shaken off without compromising the "cantina feel." When you have tons and tons of aliens and only so much page count, simplification is inevitable. That said, I think giving players a little inspiration to help them enter the headspace of an alien creature is a nice thing to do, and I like that paying attention to what your character personally cares about is baked into character creation. Not what their senses are or what they eat or how others feel about them, but what they care about.

I think we’re in agreement Holy.

I was disagreeing with the previous post on implementing instincts that characters could NOT ignore.

There are lots of possible uses for edicts and anathema but they all don't need to have the same level of enforcement/punishment or even have to have enforcement. Here are a few ideas how that could work.

Devine edicts and anathema make the most sense for you must do this to what will happen. Punishments are divine and automatic.

Cultural edicts and anathema only matter if someone who cares sees you break them. Punishments are social or legal.

Instinct edicts and anathema might require a will save to go against, or spending a resolve point. There are no punishments for going against your instinct unless doing so gets you hurt or killed.

Thanks for the clarification, Lion!

But yeah, yikes, instinct saves sound no good. Losing agency over your character is appropriate for horror and tragedy games, but not the silly, sparkly-space-furries-with-laser-beams tactical dungeon crawler. Not to mention "X can't help but Y, it's in their blood" has some... unpleasant implications. Like, do we really wanna roleplay in a world where the evil sheep from Zootopia was right?

Considering that "two free boosts for any ancestry" was added specifically to remove the feeling of ancestryism, I'm thinking a mechanics enforced concept of Instincts is a non-starter.

Transplanted from a discussion on the PF2 side...

One of the other cool things you can do with "Suggested Edicts/Anathema" is create cultural factions. You look at the list, and you have an idea of the rough baseline. You then pick any one of those. You make one group of people who takes it super-seriously, and gets really intense about it. You make another group who are a lot more chill about it. Like, sure, doing honorable battle is good. It's admirable. Thumbs up to those who are into that kind of thing... but it's just not that big a deal. I mean, if you happen to wind up in battle, you should fight honorably if you reasonably can... but you don't need to wrap your whole *life* around it.

...and the rest of your cultural understanding should let you accrete a whole bunch of other reasonable implications about what these groups do and don't care about, just from that.

I think Edicts and Anathemas are culture, but there's room as well for Insticts that are the same for everyone with a particular ancestry because they're wired into the character's biology (or construction and design for Constructs).

The writing seems to come down rather heavily on the nurture side of the nature/nurture debate. I'm more of a culture comes out of a petrie dish kind of person, but even then EVERY member of a species sharing an idea seems excessive. You can always find an oddball here and there.

I hope this game has as little edicts & anathema as possible.

I'd love to see a take on some Lashunta E&As.

Thanks for the clarification, Lion!

But yeah, yikes, instinct saves sound no good. Losing agency over your character is appropriate for horror and tragedy games, but not the silly, sparkly-space-furries-with-laser-beams tactical dungeon crawler. Not to mention "X can't help but Y, it's in their blood" has some... unpleasant implications. Like, do we really wanna roleplay in a world where the evil sheep from Zootopia was right?

Here's a sparkly-space-furries-with-laser-beams tactical dungeon crawler example.

The party's Skittermander knows that being seen would be bad for the party as they sneak through the Vesk warehouse, but they see a Vesk worker accidentally tip and spill the box they are carrying. Can the party's Skittermander resist the instinct to help clean up? Even if they can't resist helping, nothing is stopping them from trying to help without being seen. They could sneak up and help when no one is looking. Maybe they even get caught, and instead of exposing the rest of the party, they convince the vesk they are alone and just trying to help. Go figure a skittermander helping a Vesk, the Vesk might fall for that.

I was in a PF2e game as one of the party's two goblin characters. Can you imagine the horror we goblins felt when we found out the sled the party was renting was actually a dog sled? Without hesitation, we drew our dog slicer and yelled "death to dogs." The rest of the party held us back before we could attack, and after much debate we goblins agreed to ride on the sled but only if we had bags over our heads so we couldn't see the dogs. Problem solved! They are called dog slicers for a reason.

Using Instincts doesn't even need to be a rule as long as you are not giving yourself an advantage it wouldn't matter if you decided to voluntarily use a Will Save or whatever mechanic you think of to randomly determine if you can resit your Instinct. You could even make up your own secret society with its own Edicts/Anathema. I don't look at Instincts as a loss of agency over your character, I see it as a queue to add Role Playing here. Rolling dice is just one way to decide which way to Role Play the situation, you could just overcome your instinct by Role Playing the effort it takes to resist it.

I think that Edicts/Anathema is a great replacement for alignment, and potentially could have even more uses in some form or another.

That's something the players have enough information to engage in to the extent they want to engage in it already, they don't need help.

And certainly don't need it codified into the rules where it can be imposed by others on a player's character even if they don't really want it.

Again cross-forum posting, but:

Is this what the new 'you are playing your character's alignment wrong' arguments are going to look like?

"I'm gonna gank that Vesk from the last place she'd ever expect"

"Where's that?"

"Right in front of her in broad daylight..." **hack hack hack roaring lizard noises**