Defenders of Chicago (Inactive)

Game Master Jubal Breakbottle

So yeah, gun works, throwing a rock works, dropping a smoke grenade works, dropping a 20lb weight off a building onto someone's head works. :)

Levi Parana wrote:

what happens if I were to spray him with mace in ghost form?

Nothing. The mace is in Ghost Form, too. At worst, you could mace yourself. But you cannot affect him while in Ghost Form.

This is where I'm confused.

The mace comes out in a continuous stream, so it's still connected to you. If you threw the can of mace at him, it would no longer be connected to you.

The mace comes out in a continuous stream, so it's still connected to you. If you threw the can of mace at him, it would no longer be connected to you.

LOLs

@Levi I understand that you want to know what your character can and can not do and that it's also very important for the GM and player to be aligned. I would like to reiterate that this game BASH (Basic Action Super Heroes) is not like Pathfinder requiring a full time Rules Forum and FAQ to clarify the rules. While BASH has game mechanics, it is meant to be a canvas on which a story can be painted.

Beyond that, please bear in mind a few other things. First, while there are very not very many rules in BASH, I broke two rules to build Spectra:
1. I linked more than two powers together
2. I made her immune to energy attacks, which is specifically impossible in the game mechanics

Therefore, I am highly sensitive about this character's power limits. In my mind, Spectra is already the most powerful character in the game. All of the other characters have specific and obvious ways to be shut down, Spectra does not.

Two, all of the rules of Ghost Form beyond "You and people you touch can become insubstantial, able to walk through walls, allow bullets pass through you, etc. You normally can still be harmed or affected by energy and mental attacks, however. While you are impervious to physical attacks, you also cannot manipulate the physical world either. While you can sink into the ground, you have no way of rising unless you also have Flight or some similar ability." I am making up. Which means that whatever you want to do will viewed through a lens of power creep.

Three, you can actually do anything with this character using the rules, even beyond my normal power limits for the campaign. When you actually get a Hero Dice to play with, you can power stunt to do anything that you have or have not seen Shadowcat do. You need to be facing more challenging stories to get Hero Dice, but we will eventually get there. This is possible, because Hero Dice are meant to be extraordinary and represent a comic book characters weird one time use of their powers.

Lastly, about the gun. Yes, if you shoot a gun while in Ghost Form, the bullet will become solid. Please reread the advice that I can many players during recruitment, which is why most of them are unarmed fighting specialists. Your characters are heroes. The setting is nominally the "real" world with consequences for gun violence.

Hope this helps to better enjoy the game.

cheers

@GM - While we are 'heroes', the outline you've given so far is 'AKA Jessica Jones/Daredevil' from MCU. Those are rather dark and gritty shows which involve rather permanent vigilante justice (people die quite violently, and the hero's kill people as well). That coloration of the world is why Katie is what she is. If we had been going mainstream or four color classic in tone, I would have played a different character.

The feedback feels rather conflicted, can you please specify what tone you want, and if it's not AKAJJ/DD then I may need to change characters.

@Levi - There are other options as well, darted tazers for example, or beanbag rounds or plastic/rubber bullets.

I want AKAJJ/DD. Those shows are dark and gritty, but neither protagonist uses guns. Yes, people die, but both Jessica Jones and Daredevil go out of their way to avoid killing people, when they both could easily do it. They both struggle to do the right thing, even when the bad guys clearly don't play by the same rules.

For example, Jessica does not kill the bodyguards who are not mind-controlled by Kilgrave to protect him. She could but doesn't. The bodyguards arguably know that he is a bad guy.

Jessica doesn't usually carry a gun, even though she has no ranged attack.

She also doesn't kill Simpson after he attacks them, and they incapacitate him. And I think she knew that he killed Clemons.

And my memory is sketchy on the Daredevil show, which is more of a purer hero. I mostly remember him getting beat up and beating people up. He threatened to throw people off buildings, but I don't remember them dying.

I don't see the conflict. Could you provide an example of conflict?

DD Didn't carry a gun because it would be useless to him due to his blindness, or rather, more dangerous than helpful.

JJ Didn't carry a gun because she was super humanly strong.

LC Didn't carry a gun because he was super humanly strong and tough.

Agents of Shield, including Daisy, carry weapons, and kill people, all the time. Some characters try to avoid killing (Daisy & the science geeks for example), but the rest kill as needed.

Avengers kill Hydra agents all the time, including normals without powers who are killed by hulk, or Cap.

Oddly, the 'gritty' shows have less killing than the big screen movies (primarily I suspect because the TV shows are TV shows).

The MCU has varying levels of 'gritty'. Katie would land on the same level of gritty as Grant Ward (Season 1, without the Hydra ties) or Lance Hunter (all seasons).

"...kill as needed." Hydra agents are all committed to evilness.

And Cap didn't kill Strucker when he could have.

Yes, I agree Katie is at the same level of killing as Grant Ward and Lance Hunter, which is why I allowed her. But neither of them are homicidal psychopaths (well at least before Grant showed his true character in later seasons).

I would hope that you don't look at every criminal the same way. People trafficking drugs are different than murderers. People at the top of the pyramid of organized crime are different than at the bottom. All Reaper gang members are not equivalent to Hydra agents.

I still don't see the conflict.

I just wanted to make sure you were good with the level Katie was at was the big thing. The conflict would have been if you didn't see her as Lance/Grant level.

And no, she does look at people differently...

Murderers
Rapists
Drug Runners (Bosses)
Gangers (Anyone who carries a gun)

She mostly considers these guys as expendable. The idea of someone who lives by the gun dying by the gun fits her mindset.

Prostitutes, con artists, burglars, pickpockets, shop lifters, etc, all those she's not even worried about for the most part. As long as they don't kill anyone...

Well, then I feel compelled to write a scene where Katie has the opportunity to kill a ganger with a gun who is fairly innocent... ;D

I would frankly appreciate if Katie would grade her expendables a bit more and be less psychopathic.

cheers

I think season 2 of DD is going to focus quite a bit on killing and what makes a hero, since the Punisher will be making an appearance. Looking forward to that.

That oughta be good. I just keep losing my patience waiting for them to get to Iron Fist.

Yes. I've enjoyed both netflix series more than Agents, which is ok.

Give her time, she's still feeling her way into it.

Trevor runs in superhero circles. Being relatively invincible makes him worry less about what people think of him publicly (though recent events probably have him questioning that line of thinking) but he knows many people don't like to use names.

Good discussion. I don't think I can contribute to the discussion further other than Levi doesn't feel comfortable killing people. She was manipulated once into making a mistake, and she wants to try and make up for her sin.

To try and wrap up my original thoughts, I understand that with the ability to still affect others while nearly invincible Levi is definitely powerful, but I assure you, I'm not a power creeper or trying to game the system. I think I just had something else in mind than Jubal did, so I was just trying to see how this power works. I don't want to be so powerful that Levi isn't interesting like Rey in Star Wars Force Awakens, and I don't want to kill people (hence Levi's nemesis not being pure evil like Hydra). I was just concerned that Levi was more of a tool for others to use to get into places than being a hero in her own right (which isn't the case for sure now.)

@Levi. Both Gothic and Kestral have tweaked their characters. If you want to revise your character, now is the time. Please PM me.

Cheers

I'm assuming Katie's mental break includes paranoia, but if it doesn't, we should probably add that in. She's paranoid as all get out.

@Levi. Both Gothic and Kestral have tweaked their characters. If you want to revise your character, now is the time. Please PM me.

... and Daniel & Trevor, not to be left out, if you want to tweak your characters, please PM me. You might have a better idea what skills your character should have trained.

Also, this game is running very differently than any game that I've ever played on Pbp or run (with my limited experience). Please let me know what you like or don't like, because I'm making it up as I go.

cheers

Daniel,
Not sure how much information Katie has on Beard that you don't already have given police contacts, but basically he's a drug runner, had legal trouble in various states, but nothing in Illinois yet. He's only recently gotten his powers, and has been killing off rival gang members (including several entire gangs).

The part about him being involved in that car crash, and the attack on the 415's may not be in the police files. Nor about his shrugging off small arms fire and being super strong.

The GM would have to adjudicate any other data Katie has found so far while OCD'ing over him.

I'm not familiar enough with everything to comfortably tweak anything, I'll continue playing Levi for now. Unless you'd prefer I did change her.

OOC Discussion here (using non-game alias for this).

I see a major problem going on.

Goth is a walking secret breaker, despite Jubal's assurances, and at the very least, inspires people with secrets to stay away from her. She also hasn't made friends with Katie or Daniel. Nor is Goth a friendly person, not just to Katie, but to Daniel either. So no connection between her and either other person they've contacted so far.

Katie is a sociopath (a functional one, but still a sociopath) with paranoia (exacerbated by mind reading). I had originally envisioned her starting off on the bare edge of being a villain, and getting pulled back by being stabilized by the rest of the group, but so far, she hasnt' been able to make a connection with anyone. One person is a mind reader (and given her secret, that's terrifying to her), and the other is a cop (given she's a vigilante, that's hard to reconcile).

Daniel is a 'by the book' cop in a vigilante game. He has no interest in character in vigilantes doing anything, and actively threatens to report them for being vigilantes or arrest them, and tells them to stop being vigilantes. I'm not sure how a character who is anti-vigilante is supposed to work in a team of vigilantes.

Levi and Trevor, in contrast, are both vigilantes to start out with, and have common purpose toward being vigilantes. Both would find Katie pushing the envelope, and likely try to talk her down, but both would be in the same ballpark. Likewise, both would likely be able to find common ground with Goth, and could likely work with her. Unfortunately, I don't see either working with Daniel, as he's an anti-vigilante cop.

I think we need to work out how to fix this OOC and start working toward it IC. I've had Katie send Daniel her data, but unless he gives up on telling her to stop being a vigilante, I'm not sure how much further that can work. I'm not sure how Goth can work with that either. Katie and Goth might be able to come to an understanding, once Katie can be calmed down enough to not freak out over having her mind read constantly. Trevor and Levi could work with either Katie, Goth, or both, given their background and play so far.

I'm not trying to pick on Daniel with this, I just can't see a way forward short of him losing a bunch of friends to Beard and deciding Vigilante Justice is needed.

Ideas every one? If you'd prefer I step out of the game, I will do so, but I don't see Katie leaving solving the other problems..

Thanks, MDT. That's a bit more direct than I would have framed it. Let me try another way...

I've failed to connect Daniel, Katie & Gothic. Now, that Trevor and Spectra are connected, how can we build on this nucleus? Besides just meeting, are there any necessary conditions under which a meeting must take place, in order to make the connection between PCs?

thanks

I'm always direct. :) Gets me in trouble at work. :)

I tend to like interparty conflict to a degree. Conflict isn't the right word, maybe drama is more, suitable. That said, loners never work well with others, not without common purpose. Meeting and learning quickly that we all share a common purpose with dire consequences more severe than discovering the secret would work well but wouldn't be enough to make everyone always want to hang out for coffee with each other all the time.

That's my initial thoughts

My thoughts on how we got here: Trying to avoid throwing blame around, but I think there were some basic assumptions that we had that were at cross-purposes. And since we're being direct... hopefully no one will take offense.

While the strands of fate that brought Katie, Gothic and Daniel together were fine, there were some missteps in how the personal interactions were handled.

Daniel and Gothic: In truth, this is how I envisioned interactions with Gothic going. Maybe Daniel was a little more accepting of the whole telepathy thing, but we're living in a world with Thor, Hulk Iron Man and alien invasions of New York. Not a huge leap. Biggest thing was that Daniel didn't try to get Gothic's phone number, in case he needed to get in touch with her later (since she obviously knows more about Ciandra than she's letting on). But, I was the one who walked away, so it also makes sense that he wouldn't press, in order to get cooperation later.

Gothic and Katie: My biggest mistake was getting distracted by the big flashing PC light over her head and recklessly contacting her via telepathy. If I'd have been more aware of Katie's sociopathy, I would have tried a different tactic to get her attention/information about Beard. What worries me about future interactions is Katie's ultimatum about killing her if Gothic ever goes in her head again. Not sure how serious she will be about that, but given Gothic's power set, it'll have to be addressed.

Daniel and Katie: This is tough, since Daniel walked in on a crime scene. I work IRL with law enforcement, and, well, both were incorrect. Daniel should have immediately called in a uniformed officer who would have secured the scene. Katie was actively involved in an assault, and her claims of self-defense would not help once she subdued the youth and started torturing him for information.

==============================
My thoughts on where to go from here:

Daniel
I've always assumed that Ciandra Lake is her real, given name. But maybe Jubal wants to change that, which is fine. But one possibility is her period spent in a coma. When she woke up, she may have not left quietly (since her TK was greatly enhanced upon waking up). I could have Gothic stop by the hospital to see if she could find any clues, and maybe run into Daniel again as he continues his investigation.

Gothic
Is probably not impossible to find. A decent investigation into the goth scene would probably find someone who knows of the girl who never talks and point out where she works/lives.

Katie
This is the toughest, since she's done a pretty good job of alienating Daniel and Gothic. Best scenario I can think of is that she ally with the other two vigilantes so she can learn to be a team player when they meet up with Daniel and Gothic.
Another possibility is that she encounters a problem wherein she needs help. Not sure if mdt would agree that she'll reach out for help even if a situation is dire enough, but maybe he can work with Jubal to come up with something.

Beard, Ciandra, and Enzo
Not sure what Jubal's got planned for these three, but maybe one or more begin something big that has to pull everyone together, despite their current disdain for each other. Sometimes, all it takes is a bigger bad.

Thoughts?

No offense taken.

Before I respond to anything else...

I think people are taking Katie's background and assuming things not in evidence.

Katie didn't torture the teen.

She tried to scare the #*$&* out of him. She threatened to torture him. Now, from what the DM said, he got grabby, but wasn't actively trying to rape her. That's why I specifically asked him if he had, because she wouldn't go after someone she didn't think was at least a rapist. You can go check my spoilers to confirm that question. His response was 'No, not a rapist, but enough to trigger her wanting to question him'.

So she wouldn't have hurt him, and that's obvious because she didn't really give Daniel much of a hard time about letting him go. He would have had to be actively trying to rape her. There's a huge difference between pinning him to the wall by his jacket when he's assaulting her, and threatening to hurt him if he doesn't talk and actually torturing him. So let's not read into things what wasn't in there, ok? Calling threatening someone 'torture' doesn't help with anything.

----------------------

As to threats on Gothic by Katie, I think the big thing is Gothic doesn't explain her limitations, she just listens to other peoples thoughts without explaining, then issues orders. That's pretty much what Katie does as well, she tells others what to do. Like poles repel, as the old saying goes.

The big problem is, without any knowledge of what she's doing or her limitations, Katie is assuming she's rooting around in her deepest darkest cobbywebby corners. If Katie believed Gothic could only read surface thoughts, that would help a lot.

If Katie really needed help, she might reach out, but she'd be more likely to reach out to Levi/Trevor if she met them than Daniel/Gothic, mainly because of the Judge Dredd and Creepy Mind Reader vibes (not intended as an insult out of character, that's how Katie's pegged them in her head).

Yeah, I don't think it was ever likely that Gothic and Katie would be friends, but they really got off on the wrong foot. And given the vitriol she was throwing at her, Gothic didn't really feel the need to explain anything to her. We'll see what happens when they meet again.

@MDT & Stalwart

So in summary, the relationship between Gothic and Katie will be thin/tense for the foreseeable future. In absence of Daniel's feedback and actions, how do we connect Gothic and Katie to the nucleus of Trevor & Spectra? Besides just meeting, are there any necessary conditions under which a meeting must take place, in order to make the connection between PCs?

I would like to develop a good plan before Scene 4 is done.

cheers

The classic setup is a common goal making the heroes realize they need to work together and then sort out their differences in the process of dealing with their common enemies.

Trevor's response is sort of what I was expecting to happen. Something happens and the heroes need each other, even if they don't like each other.

Well, that is going to happen. My plan is to reveal how each character connects to the super-villains' plans, because the super-villains are all working together. That approach requires the PCs not hating each other.

Worst case, if the heroes can't get together to stop their nefarious plans, I'll just advance time and let the super-villain's plan start impacting the public. Personally, I like stories where the heroes have a chance to stop the villains, before the aliens invade New York.

So, please are there any ways do we connect Gothic and Katie to the nucleus of Trevor & Spectra? In addition to just meeting, are there any necessary conditions under which a meeting must take place, in order to make a positive connection between PCs?

cheers

From Levi's position just learning Katie and Goth exist with their abilities will be enough to want to work with them to get things done. Dan and Levi are both in similar crime fighting spheres that I can't see any problem there. Dan and Levi may have even met already and have a pre-established relationship if he wants to work something in with me.

Trevor is a known vigilante if I read that right? So Katie will have no issues with him. She'll likely even actively want to ask his advice.

The only reason she had issues with Goth was the whole mind reading thing and freaking out. Honestly, Katie just got teamed up with the wrong two for her intro. If she'd been at the house instead with Levi and Trevor, she'd have been giving Trevor cover fire to get away, and that would have helped form a bond.

So, how does Katie connect with Trevor & Spectra now?

Options :

A) Katie has been searching for more info on Reapers and Beard, gets a lead on something, shows up and finds Trevor & Spectra in trouble...
B) Reverse of A, Trevor & Spectra find Katie in trouble.
C) Katie, Trevor, and Spectra all end up at the same location, from different directions, and meet up.
D) Trevor & Spectra are investigating, see Katie also investigating, follow her and realize someone else is working the same case.
E) Reverse of D, Katie notices Trevor & Spectra staking out her stake out.
F) Trevor's contacts have heard about a 'purple haired girl' who's been shaking down gangers for info on Reaper activity, and Trevor & Spectra go looking for the Purple Haired Girl to find out why she's doing it.
G) Reverse of F, Katie hears about Trevor & Spectra, and goes looking for them.

Neither Katie. Trevor, nor Spectra has Streetwise, so they don't have street contacts, so F an G are thin.

The others will work but take time.

Keep thinking for something more immediate.

Cheers

I'm not sure what you want. Maybe it would be easier if I just bowed out. :(

I'm not sure what you want. Maybe it would be easier if I just bowed out. :(

I'm looking for an idea to connect you to the crew sooner rather than later. Stalwart came up with one for Gothic that we're playing out. Obviously, that idea is not directly applicable to Katie, but I have hope that a good idea is out there for Katie.

I'm stressing soon, because I don't want you to sit on the sidelines too long. I personally struggle to maintain interest in slow games. Maybe, you can be entertained by the other player's stories.

Given time, there are many ways to connect Katie to the story. If you have more patience than me, please hang in there.

cheers

I'd rather just hang in there then. I made a character that doesn't fit in easily with half the party, so if I have to be patient, I'm fine with it. Goth's player certainly was.

So I was under the impression that we had to remain in contact with Levi in order to stay ghost-ed. Do we?

So I was under the impression that we had to remain in contact with Levi in order to stay ghost-ed. Do we?

Yes. When Levi looked into the 2nd floor, she was holding Trevor's hand who stayed in the attic. Then, they floated downstairs.

cheers

PLAYING VERSION 1.1

Trevor Horton

Brawn 3 Agility 3 Mind 1

Powers:

I PMed Daniel yesterday without response yet. His last post was Tuesday.

Players, I understand RL takes precedence and delays posts. It would be great if we could warn each other of any big delays. For me, any delay longer than 2 days not including weekends is a big delay.

Even if we were to quick post in Discussion that we are sick or traveling or whatever, that would update the rest of our expectations.

We'll give Daniel the weekend.

Cheers

My posting will be spotty due to a death in the family through Tuesday.

Condolences. :(

So sorry to hear that.

My deepest sympathies, Levi.

Very sorry to hear that. Condolences.