Dawn of the material plane

Game Master fictionfan

She holds up her hand to Ozil to slow him do.

::"I agree Ozil, we have to deliver, this is true of what ever plan we decide on, but before we get into the bigger logistics and minutia details of any particular cause of action. Let us first see if the others in our group agree this cause of action. If there are no objections...":: She waits to see if any is offered.

If none is then Images around them change to ones collected over 9000 years showing resurrections, reincarnations, soul jars and other events linked to souls.

::"On the subject of souls then, I have a feeling that Lord Ven'atorix may have something to say on that matter. Having out of all of us the most knowledge and experience in the area of souls. I myself do no have a soul, for me and others like me the 'Mind State' is what we seek to live on, and can be done with the right medium. My feeling is the intangible metaphysical from of the soul is no different, but this is not my area."::

She walks up and looks close at an image of a elf dying, it seems to be on a battle field.

I've been thinking, ....What if, when we begin speaking to mortals about a new "religion," we also contact Pharasma and tell her we have an idea to virtually end Undead creation? (We'd have to leave Ven'atorix behind on that one.)

We tell her that if souls can be reincarnated back to the Prime then the vast majority of reasons one becomes Undead -- either from a horrible death or through a person's hatred of dying and moving on to an Outer Plane -- will no longer be valid. It may start her on our side.

So, who thinks they can bluff a god?!

"Has potential. Major hurdle Pharasma's apathy. Would not lift a finger even to stop Rovagug from destroying universe."

"Success possible if we can work out details ourselves, probably. Assuming Pharasma needs do nothing, may not interfere with plans. If plan requires Pharasma to aid, impossible."

::"I had considered a number of god-likes that may side with us, the problem how ever is this, she and other would still be gods, and still demand faith."::

Then an images of Rovagug come into being.

::"Tk-Chthik, Let me put pay to one lie that was set up by the god-likes of a single star system to bed. The entity known as Rovagug can not destroy universe."::

The image pulls back showing the planet Golarion, then its star system

::"The star system Golarion is part of"::

It pulls back again show a mesh of star, some ringed in green with text.

::"Local Stellar cluster, 1000 light years, 10,000 star systems, the ones in green have life."

The image pulls back again to show the flat disk of the Galaxy, a mass of green dots.

::"The Galaxy that holds the Golarion system, it holds 80 billion stars plus most with there own system, a large number of systems with god-likes and a number with entity's professed to have the power to destroy universe, to date non have."::

The image pulls back again showing a cluster of Galaxy's.

::"Our meta-Galactic cluster some 1,000,000 plus galaxies,and more entity's professed to have the power to destroy universe, of which non have."::

Finally pull back into a vast cloud of Galaxy's.

::"One hundred billion galaxies that my creators have on there comicality map, the observable universe. Now think of all the entity's that exists within the cosmos. Think how many chances all the ones others said could destroy the universe have had to do just that. No the beast is powerful, it can warp and change local reality, even seal off a world or star system, in a pocked dimension. But there are bigger and badder things out there that would come a calling should it try and harm their realms. So why tell the lie it can destroy universe, well, could it be that lie helps them stay in power. Helps them stop troubling questions. How many despots have used fear and lies of a great danger to rule, and there you find your answer. The cosmos is vast and old, now rinky-dink star system and its local hoodlums have the power to do anything more than p**s in the cosmological wind."::

The image of the universe, to show one supermassive black hole.

::"This is SXXL Z1106 188291 its some 371 million light-years form the Golarion system, its mass is 16.6 billion times that of the Golarion system. The radiation it's purring out has sterilized most if not all of its host galaxy. Tk-Chthik there are bigger monsters in the cosmos, and your looking at one right there."::

She sits once more.

::"So do we have any other offerings of ideas for the group?"::

MONSTERS OF THE COSMOS

biggest-black-hole-discovery

Sleep well tonight, hehe

"God-likes ignore natural laws. Destruction on god-like scale potentially faster than any natural disaster."

"Destruction would still be measured on cosmic timeline, yes. But god-like with insatiable appetite for destruction, left unchecked just as much danger."

"No reason for gods to lie on this count. Their power sealed regardless."

"Working from assumption every word from gods is false dangerous. Probability suggests at least some is true. Evident even to most skeptical."

"Testing theory of god's lies on creature with rumored omnicidal tendencies reckless at best."

"Suggestion that gods meaningless in grand scheme baffling as well, considering purpose. No reason for our intervention in that case."

She stands there looking at them.

::"No reason for our intervention? I thought you had deeper feeling for your fellow enslaved than that. When I talk of the greater cosmos, its the so called unchecked part they I wanted you to know about, there are Checks out there, the greater outer gods and other beings of power that limit local problems. But they work local, they limit contagion but keep hands off most of the time. A faith god like has most power local to its faith. So god-likes tend to keep clear of each other and only now and then josseling to gain more reach and power, Like balls in a bag. You want aid from outside, well your looking at it, I am that aid, hiding here in a snook away Demi-plane, from fear of the local god-likes, a well founded fear. This is how it works, the group I represent want change, they want to aid you. But this is the best they can do, such is the power the local god-likes have over the realms. Me, just me and some small amount of knowledge, pitiful but the risk is that high this is the best they could do. But risk or not, lacking ubiquitous power or not, none of this changes our aims and goals, that of freeing the local sub god-likes from oppression, victimization and the tyrannical indifference of god-likes. Or do you feel that now you know the lie told you means the local god-likes are not as powerful as you thought that no longer has a point? They still have power over life and death for all the lives under their rule. I myself wish that to end, my hope was that you all felt the same, that ending the gods and ending the links to there real so that the prime and the prime plane alone is the only plane of being."::

She waits to see what they say.

Once we cut down the gods, the prime will be the predominate plane after all. Thats the name of the game ;)

"Yes whatever the situation they are still in our way and must be removed. The construct is enlightening. Once we have removed the power of the gods I wish to travel far through these unknown spaces. But enough willful thoughts."

"Our universe here, perhaps we can venture into the astral and alter the flow of souls somehow. That is where they go to Pharasma, judgement and further."

The images all fade and they are once more surrounded by the view of the undead lords Demi Plane. Sal Da Qill go's and sits back down.

::"Ozil has outlined what I think is a sound plan, That we start with Pharasma, Alexander I take it from your last comment you also agree. That is three of us for the Ozil approach. If there is no objections we could flesh this path out. As for bigger things, I will say no more, Alexander is right, we must focus on the here and now"::

She is then Silent.

I think we need the DM to come in and give us some specific info on the Planes. (if for no other reason than we need a strong DM presence or we could get frustrated with the lack of direction).

We've come up with a handful of ideas and several variations but can't seem to get started without DM feedback. Our PCs know more about the Planes than we do; what do we know?

We're using the Paizo Cosmlogy. That's a good starting point but since there's not much beyond The Great Beyond and Inner Sea Gods, and nothing crunch-wise at all, I think we need the DM to let us know what our Characters, who know more about the Cosmology in which they live than we, know about the Planes.

Is Pharasma "neutral" and "non-interfering" enough, do we think, to listen to our suggestions without blowing the whistle to the other gods? Our PCs would have a *chance to know.

Is the only way for us to achieve a "Reincarnation Option" for mortals for us to pass The Test of the Starstone ourselves? Or is there a way to do it with several Wish spells? Lots of adventures over the decades have dealt with NPC villains who alter souls' journeys to the afterlife so there are precedents, but only the DM can answer whether our PCs could or could not attempt that. And the PCs would have a chance to know. Please tell us, DM.

We can attempt Knowledge checks if you ask for them.

But right now we're spiraling in a quagmire of too many ideas, getting bigger and more ambiguous, with every post. We don't need to think bigger! We need to think smaller; one doesn't eat an elephant whole but by one bite at a time. Let's get some real feedback and narrow down our ideas.

Knowledge Planes: 1d20 + 73 ⇒ (7) + 73 = 80

W E Ray, I think we can all agree to that, its where are are at. GM we need active feed back to move on from here.

looks at her hand as a Cup of hot green tea comes into being, she sips it and waits.

Pharasma "neutral" and "non-interfering" in anything that does not interfere with the flow of souls. She would be your main opponent. The reason she is so powerful is that she is in charge of the main source of the gods power.

"Propose best plan goad Abbadon into acting. Szuriel perhaps. Celestial scapegoats, hungry for souls. Perfect for our purposes. All in favor?"

::"I agree with your assessment Tk-Chthik, there we have a good chance of starting trouble undetected, and we also need to see what we are capable of as a group. Then there is also an idea that has been put out about the Starstone test. Would anyone like to say more on this. My feeling is this test and its reword may help us along the way to levelling the playing field V the gods, Something to think on. How ever we need to talk details of the Abbadon action, Ozil do you have any suggestions on this front?"::

My vote is that we skip the Starstone for now and go to the River Kingdoms in where I know of a large cult of Szuriel.

I support our going to Absalom eventually but would like to put it off. for at least a little while. Keep a low profile for as long as we can, is my vote -- perhaps that's my Father's way showing itself in me.

Think about this: If you were a god it would make sense for you to keep half an eye on Starstone Cathedral, the place from where you know new, unknown competition can come from. Sooner or later, after all, there will be another risen god, and keeping tabs on the place is just wise.

And what, rhetorically I ask, surrounds Starstone Cathedral: The Ascendant Court where temples and shrines to a great many deities are worshiped by their faithful. The people of Absalom throw a party every time someone crosses that chasm -- the gods will know we went in and they will pay attention if we come out.

I like the idea of doing it (I was the first to propose it.), but my vote is Not Yet.

"Agree with Ozil. Likely outcome is we become demigods. Sadly, does not level playing field. Still too far below gods. And now under their attention."

::"You may dismiss how much it may aid us Tk-Chthik but my feeling is it will aid us as I said, on our way. So I ask now, who here would stand with me to take the test? If and when needed?"::

"As said. Agreed with Ozil."

"Definitely for future. But not yet."

"My understanding of the stone is that it does not make you a demigod. But a true god. Yes?"

"Stories muddled. On at least one occasion, true godhood was deferred. Personal theory is valid godly portfolio or sphere of influence must be available. If attitudes align with existing god, power is lessened until obstacle removed."

"Hmmmm, whether true or not that would get us involved into godly politics we cannot afford. At best we are stuck attempting to tip toe around many many equals. At worse we are lesser creatures who are little more than prey to this worlds Red Mantis. Neither outcome works towards any goal we have."

::"Says the one who's plan is 'Burn it all down' not what one would call subtle that, Arkon. So moving along from the nay-Sayers, we have a agreed on a number of things, One, Not to confront Pharasma yet, two that we need to keep unnoticed for as long as possible. Three, that a means to block, divert the flow of souls to the higher pains is a good start. Now Ozil has proposed a plan for that, any specific comments about that, I ask in this way because I feel debating wider subjects is derailing the objective of this meeting. That is to plan a starting course of action, that we all agree on."::

It's taken us a while, indeed, but I think we've started to both articulate and narrow down our plans reasonably well. And it gave us a time to get to know each other. After all, I only knew about Alexander Torov from his reputation when I traveled the Mists, and only met Ven'atorix recently in Cheliax. Of the rest I knew even less.

.

So, it seems as though a trip to the River Kingdoms is next for us. Now we just need to decide what angle we take when we confront Szuriel's cult there.

Do we go there to destroy them and then work our way through other of Szuriel's Cults until we reach her various armies in Abaddon, destroying them as well, until we destroy her?.... All of which so we can take her place and then work our grand plans on a larger scale, finishing off Abaddon (the other Horsemen) before moving on to another Outer Plane?
(Not my vote because then the campaign turns into an only-fight-daemons game and, for quite a long time, leaves everything else out.)

Or

Do we go there to corrupt them against Szuriel, preaching a new religion where their souls don't go to Abaddon upon death but return to the Prime Material -- in the River Kingdoms even -- with their memories and personalities in tact, so they can continue their existences?.... We eventually challenge Szuriel personally (because she will challenge us for turning her cults away from her) and assume her power in Abaddon. ....Meanwhile, we blame our "SOUL-DIVERTING-WORK/MAGIC" on a Demon Lord so that it looks as if a Demon Lord is messing with Szuriel (and not we)?
(This is my vote because we are keeping the big picture in mind with every step we take and the game can more fluidly interchange between the Daemons & other Outer Planar entities.)

::"So it's that time, a vote please, State, 1st, 2ed of Ozil's two refinement options or abstain. Once an option is picked we can move onto its refinement. My vote is for Ozil's second option."::

"Option 2 more prudent. Though option 1 tempting. Long time since I wet my claws."

"Still. Must keep long term in mind."

Do not fret, Tk-Chthik, I am reasonably confident that we will kill some of the Cultists. Not all will see the wisdom of our religion.

....Which makes me suggest that, in our preparation to campaigning in The River Kingdoms, we get some soul-stealing magics prepared so that, after we kill a few cultists, we trap their souls in mirrors or gems or such, Imprison some under the earth with a spell, perhaps. ....This way the soul doesn't make it to Szuriel, informing the Horseman of what we're doing.

"I vote for the second as well. It makes the most sense, and will accomplish the most."

"As for souls? I have the perfect tool for making sure their souls don't go anywhere...reanimation."

At this point, Ven somehow is able to laugh, his cold dead voice echoing through the sanctum.

I don't think that make undead traps the souls. Or at least I have not read that anywhere. I know it makes them hard to revive, but that is another mater. Now intelligent undead do trap the souls like in Order of the stick.

Your knowledge checks are so high there is no point asking for a roll most of the time

Arkon chuckles himself. "All fires start with but the smallest of sparks. You mock a shadow of an idea without even discerning the outline. As for myself I am for the second option. It builds power rather than destroys. Power and knowledge will be required. These are things that such people would provide. Though I urge caution in the trapping of their souls. Though daemons are hardly the allies of the mistress of fate her own church may take an interest in our own activities. The creation of foul undead would only hasten this intention."

"If we are to replace Szuriel then perhaps destroying every cult is not the smartest idea. Minions are of much use. Yes let us start in the river kingdoms." Alexander will offer to divine the cults current location so they may teleport there when ready.

::"A better solution I would think would be Reincarnate, we would upset a few groups but if done right, but Reincarnate would not up set as many as a mass undead herd, and remember we are offing a new life not unlife."::

She stands again and a set if images

::"This is a an android forge, over here an Elan chamber, and this one is a Clone vat, that a resurrection pod. I think with some work I could design and craft a way to enable us to manufacture from a biological sample a new body for our faithful incidental to the original, even set at an optimized age. It would take some work but it could be done, but making a blank body is one thing, getting the host soul into them and having them stick is a hole other problem. We could use form of magic Jar, but that is not with in my skill set. How ever this would be another potion open to us"::

Would be neat if she could find a tech way to make new bodys, how to get the souls in to them would be a whole other problem.

I *think* that we should be safe from Pharasma's eyes & ears while working on our *first* Cult of Szuriel.

The image around them changing showing the world of Golarion and then it zooms down fly over of the river kingdoms. [none real time]

::"Then it is agreed, Ozil's Proposal of starting a new cult in the river kingdoms on the planet Golarion on the Material Plane. Some agreed on elements of that cult. It will offer of returning to the prime, mind, and soul. We devise a means to capture souls "soul-diverting-work-tech-magic". That we use it on test subjects cultists. The aim being to keep such souls from Pharasma and then on to Szuriel. At some point the Horseman will be informed of what we are doing. They will be informed by a means that makes them think that a Demon Lord is messing with Szuriel and not our group. The aim of this being to redirect any suspicions and course strife. Once our test in completed expand and repeat"::

Her starting outline plan comes back into being around her, parts get filled out with data.

::"That is stage one of our outlined plan fleshed out. It took us a while but we got there in the end."::

::"This then leaves us with two priority tasks. 1, we will have to craft that "soul-diverting-work-tech-magic" 2 Some one will have to head to the river kingdoms to scout out the lay of the land as it is now and also select test subjects for use to test on. Once you have captured some, alive, bring them back here for testing."::

A new image comes into being showing a Magical/tech lab.

::"We will have to do our testing and experimentation here
Ven'atorix, if we can impose on you some more. We do not want to be seen from outside, I have designed a lab with two parts, A body crafting Lab and a soul diverting lab, this is the basic lab layout for both, if you wish elements to be added please state. I will upload a copy of my mindstate to be the labs AI so that will run background systems"::

As she stands there in her systematics her clothing changes.

::"But 1st would you mind if I set up a mind line between us all, if we have Mind Bars up, such magic and powers will over our desiccate communications. Also I can present complex information to you on other forms than Verbal."::

Enduring Patton: battlesense Max 19 Subjects. ML at 22 +5 Number / her two Drones + other players

"Up for smash and grab. If Alchemical expertise is needed here, inform."

::"That's Good TK-CHthik, thank you, we will need your skills later for testing subject types and needs, A blank body with magic linked biological forms with need Alchemical testing"::

"I will remain unseen while there unless needed to act offensively. Communication without speaking will be useful. I have the knowledge of binding souls. Though a black saphire of some worth is required for each."

....Szuriel is a Horseman; the Daemons are all about complete and utter destruction so,....

Will NE Souls, followers of Szuriel, be "questioned" at all or even "looked at" by Szuriel, a personification of Daemonkind, for all practical purposes?

My fear in killing the individuals who don't accept what we're selling is that Szuriel would learn immediately (or eventually) upon our killing them how -- and why -- they died. And our gambit (of secrecy) will have failed.

Thus my idea of trapping those souls, keeping them from reaching Abaddon.

But will Szuriel just eat them unthinkingly?

EDIT:
(Just read Aannraa's last post)
Ooh, I forgot Pharasma will also see those souls if we don't trap them.
Yes, I think we must find a way to trap the souls of the ones we have to kill, the ones who don't convert.

Regarding our future labs, in order to get souls to stay in The Prime Material -- and my contribution to the effort -- I can offer very little.

Alas my decades of study across the Cosmology has focused on esoteric knowledge of the Planes and of the beings within them, not the crafting of tools of Power. After learning how to transfer the power of spells into words and scribing them on scrolls when I was but a novice in Greyhawk, I did not further study the art of magic item creation.

But I do know the spells of Imprisonment, Wish and Soul Trapping, so I can transcribe them on scrolls for others to use in the labs we build.
.
.
.
As far as cash flow, we can claim the gold and commodities off the Cult of Szuriel after we corrupt them and we can barter for what we need back in Absalom or Katapesh or other large, high-magic centers of commerce.

"Reincarnation was much an idea I was already considering for the new Creation. Technology is not necessary where nature can provide. Belief in reincarnation itself might even be enough to prevent souls from pushing into the outer planes. Reincarnation does not play against fate itself. It simply plays into a new way. Force may not even be required in that case. Though many experiments would be required."

Arkon muses. "Perhaps it is a good thing then that I am immortal."

As they talk Sal Da Qill is working at incredible speeds, masses of information come up on screens around her as the AI works on the problem for forming new body's for souls and mind states to be transposed into.
A large set of chemical formula scroll down one panel of light. As another shows the internal biological working a number of races.
While she works she her thoughts come to the group.

::"Tk-Chthik this is a number of biological processes I need enhanced Alchemicaly so we can grow blanks body forms for soul and mind activation. Alexander if we can alter the black sapphire so that it can act as a mind seed focus, then in theory"::

More images of a human with a gem being implanted into there head.

::"We can craft a mind and soul state recording device that can be reused once implanted."::

Then to Ven'atorix

::"Ven'atorix is there a way to destroy or means of soul deconstruction a so that it never makes its way to Pharasma"::

She turns and smiles, letting her second mind run the reserch proses.

::"This will be a most engaging project"::

Then she looks at Arkon

::"Arkon your idea on belief my be worth looking into, not every believer will want to come back to the same body. But a question, before a soul is Reincarnated, dos it go to Pharasma even for a moment?"::

"Dead go to the Boneyard. Duration of death irrelevant."

"More relevant question: Does Pharasma have time to judge? I think not likely. Must be long lines. Takes time."

"It will make no difference. Her apathy is infamous and all the souls will know is about the Cycle. Immortality through rebirth. Not undeath. Such a thing can only serve to please her. Eventually even the boneyard must be cut off but that can happen last if must."

::"Immortality through rebirth not undead, I like that. Any way on her, why don't we ask Ozil our planes expert, he out of all of us would know just what goes on in her realm. Ozil your thoughts on what Pharasma may do, after tall they say her hold on the fate is waning. Would you mind telling is what you know and what you suspect."::

"I happen to hold amongst my allies an undead known as a devourer. It can absorb a soul, and then use that souls' power to fuel its abilities. If we truly need to make sure these souls never go to their afterlife, the easiest way may be allowing it to consume the souls, one after another."

"Yes, it's a little grim, and unquestionably evil, but the ends justify the means. Don't they?"

His skeletal body seems to sit back in the chair, as if he was thinking.
"Perhaps I could even create another, so that we may have double the resources we need."

::"I'm a constructed synthetic entity and as such have no use nor need for a soul. But I have observed that destroying a soul is viewed as an Evil act by most cultures. To be honest I fund the concepts of good and evil to be more abstract perspectives that tangible reality's. The idea of a plane such a thing as a tangible reality I find disturbing. Context of action is all when it comes to such things in my maybe simplistic view. I have no compunction in destroying souls to aid our course. If you could create another that would be helpful"::

....Szuriel is a Horseman; the Daemons are all about complete and utter destruction so,....

Will NE Souls, followers of Szuriel, be "questioned" at all or even "looked at" by Szuriel, a personification of Daemonkind, for all practical purposes?

My fear in killing the individuals who don't accept what we're selling is that Szuriel would learn immediately (or eventually) upon our killing them how -- and why -- they died. And our gambit (of secrecy) will have failed.

Thus my idea of trapping those souls, keeping them from reaching Abaddon.

But will Szuriel just eat them unthinkingly?

** spoiler omitted **

EDIT:
(Just read Aannraa's last post)
Ooh, I forgot Pharasma will also see those souls if we don't trap them.
Yes, I think we must find a way to trap the souls of the ones we have to kill, the ones who don't convert.

He will just eat them, but when they eat a soul they learn alot about that soul. Not everything, but alot. It is unlikely it would learn your plans that way, but not impossible. Roll the dice too many times on that and you'll lose.

I am unmoved by the plight of Szuriel's mortal's souls whom we kill. If we kill them and they return to Abaddon then Szuriel may (will eventually) find out about us. If we kill them and trap them in the belly of a Devourer well, truly I ask, is that a worse fate than the one they get in Abaddon?!?

After all, the reason we are together in this Demi Plane now is that we do not wish souls to reach the Outer Planes; we are sick of the gods. The Lawful gods will call us Unlawful; the Good gods will call us Evil; the Evil gods will try to destroy us and the Neutral gods will gripe about "balance" -- as if they truly keep metaphysical Balance, plundering the energy of the souls in the Outer Planes to maintain their power over the Prime Material!

No, the soul of a Cultist of Szuriel being condemned to the belly of a Devourer is not a worse fate than if that soul goes to Abaddon.

"Agreed. Would possibly object were they other than Daemon worshipers. But they long for Oblivion. What difference is it if by our hand or Szuriel's?"

"Well, it's settled, then. I need an hour to create another devourer, and of course the other materials which I keep here. After that, I believe we can travel to this cult, and begin our work."

Yeah, I casually have onyx and dead skeletons in the basement laboratory of my sanctum. It's fine.

The River kingdoms are a fairly big place. You know the cult is fermenting war there, but not where they are exactly. That will take leg work.