DM Voice's Envoy of Geb - An Undead Campaign (Inactive)

Game Master Mark Sweetman

@ Euridicea - lucky last:
Obviously needs gear added, so haven't reviewed that.
Rest looks pretty good at first glance.

The main issue with the stat boosting comes from Unearthly Grace - which boosts your saves and ACs from good to amazingly good. I've two ideas for a fix:
1) Straight nerf - Reducing it by some value to balance up against the rest of the party. Which I'm not keen on doing.
2) Conditional nerf - essentially tying the function of the ability to an opposed check / save. Which would let it function against most of the mooks, but allow the more dangerous enemies to bypass it. In game reason is them seeing past your beautiful exterior and understanding your hollow and empty core.

What are your feelings?

Haven't fully finished him, on way to work, when I get home I'll do the last few things.

1) yea no mount yet, was going to deal with that last.

2) stats aren't done beyond adding a +2 to Str and Dex via item and +4 to Cha. You posted your response to my question after I had gone to bed.

3) Right, was a hold over from when I wasn't sure if I would retain racial weapon profs.

4) HP, uh, no idea? Lol. It was late last night when I did it, and I already suck at math normally. Just did the calc again and got the same 149, will fix

@ Gabriel - thanks for the updates.

@ Gathroc - figured he wasn't 100% done, but I was on a reviewing roll and figured I'd fight my way through them all in one sitting :)

@ Vesta:

1) The line for CMD doesn't need a plus.

Rest looks ok to my untrained eye thus far. I haven't looked over your gear yet, as I have an offer. For items that will be used only by you, please assume that they have the ghost touch quality as no additional cost.

That will let you gear up in a comparable manner to your peers. You can't give the kit to anyone else, but at least you can draw benefit from it.

How does that sound?

I kinda already did that with the gear. Items of importance that a ghost dies with are incorporated into their ghostly form. I translate that as them having the ghost touch property, but only for the ghost in question. I have two such items ring of invisiblity and robe of arcane heritage. Frankly it's unclear if I could take them off if I wanted to.

Did you take a good look at my unique items? A glove of ghost touch and the ghost touch vest that gives small items the ghost touch property when placed in their pockets? Between those and my telekinesis ability I don't forsee much of an issue with interaction with the material plane.

@ Vesta - yeah, no problem on your unique additions, just wanted to extend the olive branch in case you wanted to get a stat booster or resistance cloak or the like.

@ Vesta - yeah, no problem on your unique additions, just wanted to extend the olive branch in case you wanted to get a stat booster or resistance cloak or the like.

I'll double check my items and I may take you up on that offer if I can afford it.

@ Daemon - a few starter questions:

1) Hit Dice should be 9d8 + 45?
2) Line in profile for Saves is a bit jumbled (math is right), can you edit to make it a bit clearer?
3) CMB should be only a single figure at +8
4) CMD is a whole figure of 19 only
5) Can you breakdown how you get to +11 with your scythe?

Haven't gone thru gear or spells yet.

1) This is correct, I never changed the +xx when I upgraded my Cha with one of my items, fixed now and HP total added

@ Euridicea - lucky last:

Obviously needs gear added, so haven't reviewed that.
Rest looks pretty good at first glance.

The main issue with the stat boosting comes from Unearthly Grace - which boosts your saves and ACs from good to amazingly good. I've two ideas for a fix:
1) Straight nerf - Reducing it by some value to balance up against the rest of the party. Which I'm not keen on doing.
2) Conditional nerf - essentially tying the function of the ability to an opposed check / save. Which would let it function against most of the mooks, but allow the more dangerous enemies to bypass it. In game reason is them seeing past your beautiful exterior and understanding your hollow and empty core.

What are your feelings?

2nd option sounds like it would work out fine. I like your way of describing it as well. Those that can see through the glammer that nymphs and vampires put out will see the fragile creature that she truly is.

I'll get to working on gear as I was waiting for a ruling on the rest before I go buffing her with magic items.

I'm going to ditch most of my wands*cry* and pick up a. Charisma item. For the sake of it let's say vesta knows a lengthy ritual that allows her to give the ghost touch property to her personal items only.

I solved my gold issue by taking Craft Wondrous. I've fixed the character sheet and I've even got some extra gold to play with. I'll probably just pick up another wand or two.

Here you go. Let me know if I did something wrong. I've updated the profile information you requested, and I fixed the hp value.

@Vesta, technically speaking, you can't use Craft Wondrous Item to make items with your WBL, as it's wealth, not personal gold.

I am happy for anything you can personally make to be half price.

I am happy for anything you can personally make to be half price.

Though Ignac is correct most dm's feel the way described above. Casters who develop organically would have items like this. Frankly i'm of the opinion that casters are sub par without at least a little item creation.

Description and Background are added, but are still work in progress. Background in particular has more to come.

@Dm - Voice: Regarding the whole 'Create Spawn' issue, as a compromise, how about we say that, as adventuring undead, those with the ability to create spawn can only maintain control over spawn of HD = their HD (which puts it in line with the Command Undead feat)...?

@Dm - Voice: Regarding the whole 'Create Spawn' issue, as a compromise, how about we say that, as adventuring undead, those with the ability to create spawn can only maintain control over spawn of HD = their HD (which puts it in line with the Command Undead feat)...?

I think Voice's primary issue with us creating undead minions is that it bogs down combat when it is already fairly slow in PBP format and more so if any casters start throwing out summoning spells.

Gabriel Helminth wrote:

@Dm - Voice: Regarding the whole 'Create Spawn' issue, as a compromise, how about we say that, as adventuring undead, those with the ability to create spawn can only maintain control over spawn of HD = their HD (which puts it in line with the Command Undead feat)...?

I think Voice's primary issue with us creating undead minions is that it bogs down combat when it is already fairly slow in PBP format and more so if any casters start throwing out summoning spells.

You could treat it like LEadership where you have minions behind the scenes, but they're not ever present.

Yep - the restrictions on spawn are primarily to assist in control of combat. I am open to specific suggestions of how you'd like to attempt to use spawn in game, but they'll be subject to DM fiat. I can just see the potential for it to get a bit full-on, so want to be firm and open about the limitations up front.

An example of an 'acceptable' use might be: Gabriel whips up a few crawlers from some unfortunate farmers to create a diversion so they can slip into town undetected.

@ Murmur - I think the attic whisperer adjustments you're using are a bit off. Should be: Str: -2, Dex: +8, Int: +4, Wis: +6, Cha: +6.
However I think you're also missing 2 stat points from HD / levels as well.

Yep - the restrictions on spawn are primarily to assist in control of combat. I am open to specific suggestions of how you'd like to attempt to use spawn in game, but they'll be subject to DM fiat. I can just see the potential for it to get a bit full-on, so want to be firm and open about the limitations up front.

An example of an 'acceptable' use might be: Gabriel whips up a few crawlers from some unfortunate farmers to create a diversion so they can slip into town undetected.

@ Murmur - I think the attic whisperer adjustments you're using are a bit off. Should be: Str: -2, Dex: +8, Int: +4, Wis: +6, Cha: +6.
However I think you're also missing 2 stat points from HD / levels as well.

how about just giving the spawn a shelf life. Like they only last 1d/hd or 2hrs/hd. that'll keep them from beinng a comody one can stock up on.

@ Vesta - I'd prefer a free-form approach rather than a hard guideline. Leaves me open to approve creative uses that I don't have issues with, as well as disprove any uses I do.

I'll be fairly lenient with out of combat use to augment the party's mission, and pretty strict with anything that breaks over into actual combat use.

@ Murmur - I think the attic whisperer adjustments you're using are a bit off. Should be: Str: -2, Dex: +8, Int: +4, Wis: +6, Cha: +6.
However I think you're also missing 2 stat points from HD / levels as well.

I'll be honest - I'm relying on Hero Lab for the stat generation, as I haven't taken a monster and added class levels with point buy before. I can certainly adjust the stats as you suggest, and I might end up tweaking the stats some more because of it. I'll update later this evening.

DM - Voice of the Voiceless wrote:

@ Murmur - I think the attic whisperer adjustments you're using are a bit off. Should be: Str: -2, Dex: +8, Int: +4, Wis: +6, Cha: +6.
However I think you're also missing 2 stat points from HD / levels as well.

I'll be honest - I'm relying on Hero Lab for the stat generation, as I haven't taken a monster and added class levels with point buy before. I can certainly adjust the stats as you suggest, and I might end up tweaking the stats some more because of it. I'll update later this evening.

General rule is that most monsters have stats of 10 or 11 in each stat before racial bonuses. So if you have a critter with a strength of 19, round down to 18, subtract 10 and you get your racial bonus to Str of +8.

I've updated my stats, and tweaked them around a bit:

8/10 Str (10 base - 2 racial + 2 enhancement)
18/20 Dex (10 base + 8 racial + 2 enhancement)
- Con
18 Int (14 base + 4 racial)
14 Wis (8 base + 6 racial)
27/31 Cha (18 base + 6 racial + 4 enhancement + 3 HD/level increase)

@ Vesta - I'd prefer a free-form approach rather than a hard guideline. Leaves me open to approve creative uses that I don't have issues with, as well as disprove any uses I do.

I'll be fairly lenient with out of combat use to augment the party's mission, and pretty strict with anything that breaks over into actual combat use.

groovy

Can somebody check over my ability scores, currently, Str and Dex have a +2 bonus via belt and Cha has +4 from item as well as the 2 racial increases.

Also, I don't think I should get the stat increases from being an Elf formally, but should I RAW?

No changes from being an Elf - the Dullahan is a stand-alone monster not a template, so you'll build straight up from the Dullahan base spread.

Combined Stats: Str: 28 Dex: 17 Int: 16 Wis: 18 Cha: 28
Dullahan gets: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Int, +6 Wis and +8 Cha
Items / Stat Boosters: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Cha
Means a base spread of: 16, 11, (10), 12, 12, 14

Looks like a 20 point buy to me.

When you are comfortable, please make your presence known here... you are about to entertain an important visitor.

I'd like to get the upfront story exposition started while we finish the spit and polish on the crunch.

Murmur's crunch and fluff is now done, barring any DM adjustments.

General rule is that most monsters have stats of 10 or 11 in each stat before racial bonuses. So if you have a critter with a strength of 19, round down to 18, subtract 10 and you get your racial bonus to Str of +8.

If that is the case, I short-changed myself two points of strength, and four points of charisma... I think I need to edit my character sheet again...

Although I have been looking and comparing myself, I'd like to get player input as well. Balancing seven widely variant builds against one another is not an easy task, and more eyes the better.

Who do you think is lacking compared to the others? - and in what area?

Who do you think is outshining the others? - and in what area?

Do you personally feel that your character build fits in power and role wise within the party?

Frankly, the main thing that I think is problematic is the fact that some PCs can 'come back' once they are reduced to 0hp (since Undead are destroyed when they reach 0hp, and do not have the 'negative hp buffer'), whereas others cannot... That means that the campaign will be much more deadly for some of us than it is for others.

I will post a detailed analysis of the PCs after I have had dinner ;-)

I feel that it will be more in how we play to our strengths then what our character sheets dictate, i.e. I will never be a very good fighter no mater how my stats get balanced but I can still throw down the occasional ouch. Gabrial will probably be ungodly good at picking locks, so just throw some harder locks at him. If he isn't around allow us to find ways to circumvent them, etc.

As for people being able to come back. They will be coming back with nothing, except maybe their armor so it wont exactly be easy for them to do anything again for quite some time, Geb doesn't strike me as the place that just loans magic items to minions who failed on their quest to first time round.

I believe we should get started as is and if we do happen upon any game braking issues, fix them as they come up through roll-playing and situational curses.

I just remembered a question I had. I stated in my history that my character was coated in Unguent of Timelessness to prevent his decay. In its description it states that when used to coat a dead creature it prevents decay so that 1 year is like a day, it also states that anything coated gets +1 bonus to saves (Fort,Ref,Will) I was wondering if this would apply to an undead coated in it or not. Or if you rule that it would not affect an undead at all?

Also, I asked this question the other day and never got input back on it, just wanted your official say in the matter.

@ Daemon - sorry missed that one. Sure why not - but it's a resistance bonus, so wouldn't stack with your cloak anyway ;)

The death at 0 HP is an interesting issue and I'll have to give it some thought.

we could say that if they are infused with so much negative energy, (say a negative version of raise dead?) then they will regenerate in 1d10 days just like a lich

Here is my break-down of the PCs:

Murmur:
Spectacular Charisma, which goes a long way to increasing the bard's survivability.

(198hp) AC 31/19/25; Fort+17 Ref+15 Will+15

Primary Melee Weapon: Bite +16, 1d4
Primary Ranged Weapon: +1 Shortbow +17/+12, 1d4+1

An eclectic mix of buffs and de-buffs (thoughtfully taking into account the fact that undead are normally 'immune' to standard bard song).

Decent mix of skills - all Knowledge skills covered, Bluff, Disable Device, and a few others.

Gathroc the Betrayer:
All-round decent stats, with spectacular Strength and Charisma, which goes a long way to increasing survivability.

(188hp) AC 23/13/20; Fort+15 Ref+7 Will+14

Primary Melee Weapon: Zhennuelge +22/+17, 1d10+11+1d6+2d6
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

Basically a straight-up melee fighter.
Good at Intimidation.
Has a worryingly low AC, but does have Fast Healing 5, which lessens the sting a bit.
Possesses SR, which is a two-edged sword; it makes in-combat healing difficult...

Vesta Shadowbane:
Fairly mediocre states, with the exception of Charisma, which is spectacular.

(119hp) AC 29/21/27; Fort+15 Ref+17 Will+9

@Vesta: Mild curiosity on my part, but why are you adding your deflection bonus to reflex saves?

Primary Melee Weapon: N/A
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

A decent mix of damage-producing, and buffing/de-buffing spells.

Corrupting touch is useful against mortal opponents.

Is INCORPOREAL, which, depending on the situation, can be incredibly useful.

Relative low hit points, but as she should really never be in melee (and can get out of it quickly thanks to being incorporeal), this should not really be a problem.

Possesses the ability to REJUVENATE - even if killed, she will eventually come back...

Ignác Takács:
Spectacular Strength, decent Charisma, otherwise mediocre stats.

(158hp) AC 37/13/36; Fort- Ref+6 Will+9

Primary Melee Weapon: Bardiche +20/+15, 1d10+12+2d6
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

Basically a straight-up melee fighter/cork, with decent staying power, regardless of what is thrown at him (although his saves are not too stellar).
Good at Intimidation.
Should synergise well with Gathroc, helping to make-up for the other's low AC...
Can Command Undead, which should be useful...
Possesses SR, which is a two-edged sword; it makes in-combat healing difficult...
Possesses the ability to REJUVENATE - even if killed, he will eventually come back...

Daemon Son-of-none:
Decent Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma; otherwise average stats.

(81hp) AC 25/13/24; Fort+13 Ref+8 Will+14

Primary Melee Weapon: +1 Cold Iron Scythe, +10/+5, 2d4+3
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

Decent bunch of skills (some Knowledge, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Stealth spring to mind)

Disturbingly low hp, but as the party healer, should hopefully not be going into melee too often.
Average AC.
Good Saves.
In addition to spells and channels, also possesses unlimited use of 'Necromantic Touch', which will provide LIMITLESS healing for an undead party!
Possesses the ability to REJUVENATE - even if killed, he will eventually come back...

Euridicea, The Hollow Maiden:
Spectacular Dexterity, ridiculous Charisma, otherwise decent stats.

(148hp) AC 39/31/29; Fort+15 Ref+28 Will+26

Primary Melee Weapon: +1 Adamantine Unholy Dagger +14, 1d4+4+2d6 vs good
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

The Party face - Good Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, as well as good stealth.
Average hp.
Ridiculously good AC and saves.
Fast Healing 5.
Possesses 'decent' DR (10/Magic & Silver, or DR 10/Cold Iron), which should crop-up more often than the DR/Magic that others possess (given that most foes will probably have magical weapons, or be themselves magical enough to bypass such DR)
Decent mix of buff/de-buff spells.
Huge raft of racial/template abilities, which are situationally useful - if the campaign features a lot of 'mortal' opponents, she will be able to steam-roll through them :-)
Can CREATE SPAWN
Possesses the ability to REJUVENATE - even if killed, she will eventually come back...

Gabriel Helminth:
Spectacular Strength, Decent Dex and Cha, otherwise mediocre stats.

(180hp) AC 32/21/27; Fort+14 Ref+15 Will+12

Primary Melee Weapon: +1 Ghost-touch Claw +24, 1d1+10
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

The party rogue/skill-monkey.
Decent mix of skills (Climb, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival).
Decent hit points and AC.
Relatively low damage output, but he will reliably get sneak attack, which will bump-up his regular attacks by 5d6, against most targets.
Can CREATE SPAWN (although 1HD Claws are not exactly overwhelmingly effective at our APL).

-----------------------------------------------------------

General observations: We, overall, seem to be 'Team Good At Perception', as well as 'Team Not Good At Dealing With Aerial Combat'.

Gabriel has made a decent review of everyone, though I now feel that my HP is ridiculously low in comparison with everyone else. And we probably should find a way to make up for the lack of defense vs aerial combat. Other then that I believe that this will be a fairly effective group.

Well, I would suggest that other people besides the Bard get ranged weapons, then ;-)

Gabriel cannot exactly use ranged weapons (lacking the requisite two hands necessary), but even he can sneak attack Acid Splash 3/day up to 50' ;-)

I do have some rays and ranged spells in my spell arsenal, However with a +1 Dex I would be even less proficient with a ranged weapon then I am with a melee weapon, leaving me less then optimal as a ranged attacker unfortunately.

Well, I was leaning more towards suggesting that the two fighters get (at least) +1 Mighty [+X] Composite Longbows, but your point is taken ;-)

To be fair, though, I did not get the sense that Daemon was really expecting to act as a damage-producer...

Daemon - FYI, game thread is up here just in case you hadn't noticed.

Thanks for the in depth Gabriel, pretty much tallies with my thoughts. I'm tempted to jump in and see how things fall without adjusting anything at this stage.

(FYI, I am off to sleep now, so any further 'summons' will be played-out tomorrow...)

Well, I was leaning more towards suggesting that the two fighters get (at least) +1 Mighty [+X] Composite Longbows, but your point is taken ;-)

To be fair, though, I did not get the sense that Daemon was really expecting to act as a damage-producer...

Haha, he really isn't at all, mainly role-play and healing, a few buffs here and there.

@DM actually I didn't, thanks for the link.

Vesta Shadowbane:

Fairly mediocre states, with the exception of Charisma, which is spectacular.

(119hp) AC 29/21/27; Fort+15 Ref+17 Will+9

@Vesta: Mild curiosity on my part, but why are you adding your deflection bonus to reflex saves?

Primary Melee Weapon: N/A
Primary Ranged Weapon: N/A

A decent mix of damage-producing, and buffing/de-buffing spells.

Corrupting touch is useful against mortal opponents.

Is INCORPOREAL, which, depending on the situation, can be incredibly useful.

Relative low hit points, but as she should really never be in melee (and can get out of it quickly thanks to being incorporeal), this should not really be a problem.

Possesses the ability to REJUVENATE - even if killed, she will eventually come back...

I was under the impression that deflection bonuses added to Reflex Saves although I can't seem to find where it says that. I'll correct that.

She's incorporeal, has Hide in plain sight, and a high stealth roll, and invisibility at will (ring). She can hide Really well at the drop of a hat.

Re: Rejuvinate; Basically she can't stay dead until she solves the mystery of her murder. At this time she has no leads. I don't know where she respawns, but i imagine it's wherever is convenient for the DM. I assume that any ghost touch gear respawns with her. It makes sense given that it happened the first tiem she died too (per ghost description) DM Discression of course.

Low HP aren't an issue because most attacks cant hurt her. She shouldn't be in Melee. And she can't really die.

Daemon - shouldn't your HP be:
8 + 8x5 + 9x5 = 93?

Daemon - shouldn't your HP be:

8 + 8x5 + 9x5 = 93?

Earlier you stated that hp was max first lvl and then half every lvl after + modifiers. If you would like me to use full hp every lvl I am not adverse to it.

Should be max HP for first level - then half rounded up for the rest. So a d8 turns into a 5 (just like PFS rules).

Ah, fixed it. I was just thinking since I am not focusing on building an army of undead I really dont need maxed cleric lvls, if I switched my classes around to 3lvl cleric, 3 lvl wizard, 3 lvl Mystic Theuge, it would give us better aerial combat abilities and allow me to reallocate some of my feats to make the character a bit more fun.

let me know what you think

Ultimately your choice. If you'd prefer to be a mixed caster go ahead.