I actually plan on keeping charisma at 10 (my channeling won't advance once I take mystic theurge) and focus on wisdom/dex. Looks like we will have another fighter being the party face.... :)
We're supposed to have at least a couple more people. I'll be sending PMs out tonight.
All - would anyone mind if I switched my character concept? I know initially a few people had mentioned rogue-types. When Riddelwrong started making someone I had assumed it would be a charismatic/party-face type character (why did I assume that? Who knows?).
Anyway, the other concept I had in the back of my mind which I now want to throw out there is for a charismatic bard/party-face. Since this is an urban campaign I'm excited about the chance. He would be very skill focused and low magic (looking into the archetypes right now).
The background would obviously be different than what I envisioned for a cleric, but the interaction with Raina actually wouldn't need to change at all (right down to the fake ambush).
The Player's Guide assumes we all have a dark past (and I would work that into the character) but I actually want him to be good, optimistic and have a sense of humor. He is the "eyes and ears" of the group. He would not be the most effective in combat to be sure.
Stats would be:
Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 10, Int: 14, Wis: 12, Chr: 16
Human
Anyway, let me know what you all think. I know that Riddlewrong is still putting the cruch together so if this steps on your character concept please let me know!
You probably assumed that it would be a charismatic character because that is what I originally planned to make! :P
I don't mind if you want to change your character. We haven't even got a full party yet, so it's not like this is last minute or anything.
As far as skills go, I can tell you what my rogue has so that you can figure out which skills are going to end up overlapping.
Acrobatics: +7
Appraise: +7
Bluff: +5
Climb: +6
Disable Device: +11
Escape Artist: +7
Knowledge (Local): +7
Linguistics: +7
Perception: +4/5 vs. traps
Sleight of Hand: +7
Stealth: +9
Swim: +6
As you can see, he has a lot of the more intelligence and dexterity based skills covered. He also has a moderate strength, but that's not as much of a skill consideration outside of climb/swim.
Charisma skills? Not so much. xD He also only has one knowledge skill (local), so those are pretty open if you're looking to go that route. By the way, some skill overlapping is okay and I'm not going to kill you if we both do one or two things that are the same. Sometimes having two people with the same skill in combination with aid another can mean the difference between success and failure, anyway. So don't bend over backwards to avoid a skill just because I have it. :)
So after looking at both the bard and rogue, I think my charisma/face character would be much more playable (and actually useful in combat) is I played a rogue. You're definitely right that overlapping skills don't hurt.
I still plan on having a high charisma, probably charisma = dex, then int. I plan on maximizing bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, stealth, perception and some knowledges. My feats will likely be non-combat in nature. However, it would be a lot of fun to have two rogues because we can flank each other and set up some pretty nice combos (teamwork feats).
I was going to send a send DM-Salsa a PM about my concept but given we're all on the same team and it makes sense for the other players to know (even if the characters don't) I'll just give the background here:
I want to play a kitsune rogue (with the Kitsune Trickster archetype). The idea is that he was born in Tian Xia, but even at birth they recognized he would be "one of a thousand faces" due to his naturally black fur. Growing up he was exceptionally crafty and showed tremendous skill in deception (Realistic Likeness feat which is essentially Alter Self at will without ability bonuses). When he grew to adulthood, he was chosen for the honor of "The Great Lie" in which a kitsune travels far and proves that he can fully integrate himself into another culture, living as one of the native people. My character was sent to Korvosa. There he uses his shape-changing abilities to see how he can integrate into the human society. He begins following a young man (employed by Lamm) who seems to travel quite a bit through down, encountering many people. His goal is to learn customs, ways of interacting, etc. However, this young man one night is beaten and killed. It was too late for my character to intervene (overwhelming attackers) so he takes it as a challenge and assumes his likeness. He begins to live as this young man until he himself is jumped, beaten and left for dead. This leads to the happiest day of his life - his skills were obviously so good he was mistaken for him! Yet he also needs to find who did this and why? He assumes a new likeness and gets a low-level job with the Korvosan Guard. Something that can give himi access to different places and people and allow him to conduct his own search for information all while living a new life and practising a new identity.
I could still have run into Raina and found the connection with Lamm which is why he still keeps contact with her. (Let me know your thoughts Alice). Anyway, this would be a lot of fun to play from the deception/trickery angle
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Wow, I didn't know that kitsune archetype existed. That is so cool. Guess you'll have to see if Salsa is okay with kitsune, though.
Also, if you want to play a charisma-focused rogue character, why not consider an archaeologist bard? It gives you a lot more benefit for having a high Charisma score, but it's still very "roguey". No sneak attack damage, but you have a lot of buff spells (haste!) and archaeologist's luck to help you out on that front.
EDIT: Sandman is pretty good for a "rogue" feeling bard as well.
Allow me to plead the case of the bard for a moment, if you don't mind.
Bards are useful in combat (moreso than other casters at low levels), so I dunno who put the silly idea in your head that they're not!
You get medium BaB (so you can actually fight when you're out of spells), spells (which you can cast in armor), AND songs, plus charisma as a main stat and access to all social skills + knowledge skills + bonuses to skills you didn't even take! If you want to go with a deception/trickery angle, I don't know why you WOULDN'T go bard, especially since you're not focusing on the main rogue skills anyway. They get access to charm spells, illusion spells, and a HUGE amount of archetypes to fit virtually any concept.
AND rogues only have two knowledge skills as class skills out of the box: (local) and (dungeoneering). If you want to have a knowledge skill focus, you're gonna be taking them at lower values than the bard or having to pick background traits that allow you to take a couple as class skills (which doesn't let you pick traits to boost anything else). Bards get access to all knowledge skills. Just sayin'.
Plus, Kitsune make great bards.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm thinking maybe you want to play a bard but you don't realize it. Virtually everything you want to do, the bard does exceptionally well, if not better! xD
I can't tell you how many times my Serpent's Skull group has benefit from having a bard, it's immeasurable. I am a big fan of having them in a group, if you can't already tell. Just playing devil's advocate for a minute here, don't mind me!
EDIT: Alice totally beat me to the punch there, but I'd just like to echo her points about the builds -- there are some great ones for what you want to do. Check it out!
Your feedback, as always, is wonderful. Perhaps I got lured in because Kitsune has a rogue archetype assigned with it. I guess that and the extra 2 skill points/level plus sneak attack.
I have never actually played a bard before (even though I've played since 1st edition)! I will start taking a look at some builds (DM-Salsa is it okay to use the Kitsune) and archetypes.
Your arguments make a lot of sense... I think from a RP perspective I was thinking rogue because singing/performing and bringing attention to oneself is the opposite of this character is about - he is about blending in and disguise. But, it seems that the archeologist archetype takes care of that.
I literally envision the character as a "trickster," relying on his skills and wit more than spells (but then again he can change shape!). I guess it is easier for me to see sneak attack as helpful....
I just reviewed the bard spell list - wow. Even the cantrips are awesome and perfectly aligned with what I envision. I would miss the "Kitsune Guile" ability from the archetype (add Int bonus to bluff, diplomacy, etc).
DM-Salsa - what's your input? What do you think works better? What might some of the other player's play?
I am wholly confused in a very good way.
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Losing 1-3 points from your Bluff and Diplomacy checks is totally made up by being able to cast Glibness and Charm Person and Honeyed Tongue and various other awesome spells.
@ TRM: I like the background, I would like to know how the Kitsune from Tian Xia know of Korvosa. Kalsgard seems more likely because it's the endpoint of the path of Agnihei (I think I got that right.) Maybe he was sent out to find a place of his own choosing to perform the rite and selected Korvosa after travelling over the path. The timing could be off depending on when he received the honor and how old he is at the game start, but that's splitting hairs. We are currently lacking in the Arcane department so a Bard would be better from a balance perspective. But I don't think that's what you want from me.
I only know what one of the guys that's not in Alice's game will play, and he tends to like the martial classes. I'm not going to pigeon hole anyone, so if we wind up with a bunch of fighters, a rogue, and a cleric, I can find ways to fill in the gaps. That said, here's my thoughts on the rogue versus the bard.
Rogues would work very well for what you have going in your characters background. If you're willing to forgo some combat prowess, you can build a rogue that is capable of being really good at a variety of social and other non-combat situations, including blending into a crowd and passing yourself off as another. They have the most skill points of any class in the game and are second only to bards in the number of class skills.
Bards would also work very well with your concept. (I know you said that they bring attention to themselves, which doesn't fit well with the concept you have, and I will address that in a bit.) Again, sacrificing some physical power will net you some nice dividends with the social skills, but you also get some nice DCs to your spells and a bard using illusions is down right nasty if they know what their doing. They have as many skills as a ranger, which is two less than what a rogue gets (6 to the rogue's 8.) They also have more skills to choose from and make knowledge checks untrained, if not at first then at second.
You said, "I was thinking rogue because singing/performing and bringing attention to oneself is the opposite of this character is about," as a reason you didn't consider bards. I'd like to provide a counterpoint. Bards don't have to draw attention to themselves, or alternatively, your character could be looking for a challenge and adopt a triple life. There's the life as a Kitsune, the life as someone who goes unnoticed, and the life of a flashy bard. He might go crazy, but it'd be interesting to see nonetheless.
Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters too much and this is at least half-way coherent. Good luck and I look forward to what ever you choose.
Hey guys. Salsa got me to login finally.
Hey guys. Salsa got me to login finally.
FINALLY! I was worried you were going to be a no show.
;)
As a an aside, it really annoys me when I see someone post that "Fighters are useless outside of combat," or "Class X sucks because it can't do this, that, and whistle in one round," or the one that really sticks in my craw, "The GM shouldn't have to plan to make a character feel useful" It feels like those people are missing part of the point of the game, and the CRB even says that the GM is supposed to give everyone a chance to shine and that it's okay to violate the rules for the sake of fun. Some people have fun making murder-machines with lots of spells, skill, and what-not. That's fine and I'll leave them to it, but don't go saying that I can't play a fighter that can be the face of the party if I want to, or that I'm useless playing class X. Rogues are a popular target for this. I'm playing a Rogue in a game and she's been far from useless in combat and social situations (admittedly I got lucky and rolled two 16's and a 17 for her mental stats, but still.)
The point of the game is to have fun, and it's the GM's job to make every player feel like their character is a hero. My GMing Philosophy is if you're not having fun, I have failed in my job. One of the questions I asked when I GMed for PFS was, "did you guys have fun?" I'm hoping that all of you will say yes and mean it if I ask it after we start.
[/soapbox]
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I gotta agree there. I mean, I recognise that some classes are stronger (wizards, clerics) and some classes are weaker (rogues, monks) but you can definitely make effective and fun characters no matter what class you pick.
I also think it's very contextual--i.e., if you're playing an uber-optimised conjuration specialist wizard in a party with a social skills-focused rogue, a finesse fighter with spring attack, and a cleric who uses a lot of cure spells in combat, you should probably tone it down a bit... but that doesn't mean that the other 3 are "bad" just because they aren't the "best" they could be.
I'm playing a game every Sunday where we have anywhere between 4-6 players turn up. I'm playing a wizard who is ALSO the party face, mainly because most of them picked melee classes and the bard is focused on things like Acrobatics and Stealth. I "wasted" a feat on Cosmopolitan and am maxing Diplomacy and Bluff, and I'm an evoker who has been REALLY useful despite using "bad" blast spells. (To be fair, we've been fighting lycanthropes with only one silver weapon :) None of the other players are particularly optimised, they're just there to have fun. And everyone has fun, so it all works.
I was thinking a young guy who grew up in the shingles and is now working as a guard to better his current situation possibly seeking revenge for his late freind who over dosed on shiver and was found face down in a ditch. Possible fighter might go ranger still working out the stats and traits. I am a first timer but do have the hero lab client so that should help flesh my concept.
Im gona have to agree the point is for everyone to have fun in their own way otherwise who do you use as a meat sheild while you cast.
I was thinking a young guy who grew up in the shingles and is now working as a guard to better his current situation possibly seeking revenge for his late freind who over dosed on shiver and was found face down in a ditch. Possible fighter might go ranger still working out the stats and traits. I am a first timer but do have the hero lab client so that should help flesh my concept.
Just a bit of flavor that might interest you if you go ranger. The Sable Company Marines are an elite force that has been around almost as long as Korvosa. This group of rangers are known for their unique hippogriff mounts and tight integration with the Korvosan Guard during times of great turmoil. Vrash could have joined the Guard in hopes of becoming a Sable Company Marine, since a good number are drawn from exceptional members of the Korvosan Guard.
EDIT: Ranger archtype that you might want to look at. I wouldn't allow the Hippogriff for a couple of levels at least, but it's something that I thought you might like to see.
hmm your right it would fit him trying to aspire to something better. Ill have to look into that thx.
I usually just play what I think will be fun and as long as everyone else is having fun, I say that's all that matters. I've been spending WAY too much time writing this character's backstory and absolutely agonizing over what to name him. Crunch was the easy part. The rest is what I really enjoy about RPGs in general: Role-playing!
What ethnicity is he? Varisian? Chelish? Shoanti?
EDIT: Ranger archtype that you might want to look at. I wouldn't allow the Hippogriff for a couple of levels at least, but it's something that I thought you might like to see.
Ignore that bit about the Hippogriff, you don't get until Level 4 anyway.
Sheesh, that was silly of me.
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There's also a ranger 'archetype' that lets you get a hippogriff: Sable Company Marine
(note that this only replaces favoured terrain 1, not the entire line of favoured terrain).
EDIT: ninja'd!
I saw that it isnt till lvl 4 but that lets him have a goal he is working towards
Yes it does. It also gives me something to weave into the campaign.
Welcome Vrash - look forward to gaming with you!
DM-Salsa, thanks for the feedback. After reading what everyone wrote and thinking about it, I think a Kitsune bard would be the best way to go with the archeologist archetype. That takes the singing/performing part out (which was a concern) and also seems to be a good rogue/bard combo class. As far as how he got to Korvosa - I literally imagine it as part of the kitsune rite. The pull out the map they have of the known world and someone picks where he has to go to prove/make himself. The idea of the rite is that after living there for 5-10 years successfully you have proved yourself and then come home as a hero.
Plus, I was just imagining all the incredible fun I could have with the bard spells.
I already have his feat selected (Realistic Likeness), so I will go searching for some good traits that buff my disguise/bluff checks.
Thanks everyone for indulging my questions - I'm REALLY excited to play this character! Will have the cruch/background fully ready in the next day or so, sorry if I'm holding things up.
@Alice - I can still be the person who finds you so our characters can still have a connection. Given my character's personality, popping up here and there would be even more in character.
@Salsa - How many more people are we getting?
Right now, it looks like we have:
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Raina (Human Unarmed Fighter)
Unnamed (Kitsune Archaeologist Bard)
Vrash Talen? (Human? Sable Company Marine Ranger?)
Unnamed (Tiefling Rogue)
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I think Ninivic was going to make a cleric, but he hasn't been around for a few days. I guess we'll see.
Possibly one more not from Alice's Game. I'm going to PM the others to see it they're interested.
Ninivic here. Just got the PM. Definitely interested in evangelist cleric, but if we have a bard, I might consider some other options.
Ah, perfect then. That will be nicely complementary.
Salsa - you ok with a connection to Thousand Bones? Idea would be that Tusilak came to Korvosa with Thousand Bones, but I can also make him part of that expat community of Shoanti in the Skaldwood.
Yes I am fine with that.
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OK, read through the "backlog" finally.
@Vrash - if you are planning on taking a ranger, than I would probably change my guy/role for something else (it will not be a problem for me). So please just confirm if you will be playing a ranger, and I'll decide on something else then. Otherwise, I will work on "fitting" Whurly in Korvosa.
I think I will be running the ranger thx for the offer. Nice to meet you and i know what you mean about the posts lol it was alot to go through.
This is gonna be one wacky group, I can already tell. :P
P.S. - There are no short people in our group. Who are we all going to pick on!?
I can make Tusilak a short human :)
Although he's already going to be taking plenty of abuse from the native Korvosans.
@Tusilak - evangelist bard cleric will work very well since I'm going for archeologist bard (as Alice pointed out) - no overlap.
@Whurly - if Vrash is playing a hippogriff ranger, then you could certainly play Whurly as an urban ranger (I think you mentioned). Would be a very helpful character in an urban campaign.
Our party of characters looks fun! I have a somewhat busy day today with my family and plan to have the character/background posted at the latest Monday night. Please let me know if I'm holding anything up.....
Nope, I'll still need a day or two after everyone has a character's background ready to get the ball rolling. It's mainly getting notes ready, but I'm hoping that I can deliver a pretty good campaign by pouring a little more time and effort upfront.
I should have everything completely done by tomorrow, I think.
I'm cool with it.
I like having dwarves in the party. :)
No complaints from me on multiple rangers!
Hey all - this is my character (TheRedMage). I'm excited to play him. Sorry for the crappy avatar name. I wanted to leave it as just "Hakaru" bu that was already taken.
Hakaru is his real name but he lives in Korvosa under an assumed name. Does anybody know if there is any list of generic Korvosan male names? I'm thinking the Korvosan equivalent of Robert or John (no offense to the Roberts and Johns of the world!).
Also, if any of you have a chance to look through his sheet/history stealing does play a role in what he will do. I plan to have the character steal on a semi-frequent basis... should be fun! ;)
Varisian and Chelish names seem to be Greek and Italian in real world terms.
The Inner Sea World Guide lists the following as common male Varisian/Chelish names:
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Chelish:
Aerodus, Alexite, Gellius, Grachius,
Gruckalus, Lurconarr, Manius, Marcellano, Morvius,
Pavo, Pellius, Petronicus, Rutilus, Solangus, Ursion
Varisian:
Alezandaru, Andrezi, Dortlin,
Eugeni, Henric, Ionacu, Iozif, Kazallin,
Marduzi, Silvui, Skender, Tiberiu, Viorec,
Zandu, Zstelian
Hope that helps!
Yes, actually that helps a lot. "Aerodus" it is! Although I don't think avatar's allow you to use quotes....
Just a suggestion, make two Aliases, one for Haraku and the other for Aerodus and switch between the two when Haraku is switching personas
Okay, worked out the aliases and I think I'm good to go!