Alternate Class Creation - An idea that needs fleshing out

Has anyone considered taking a classless concept of character building and apply it to the pathfinder system?

Maybe alternating between talents and feats to really mold a concept into a character.

You might start out with build points to purchase class features.

Has anyone tried this?

Yes, but not in Pathfinder/D&D.

It fails miserably in Pathfinder/D&D unless you ban all spellcasting except as individually bought SLAs.

Edit: shouldn't this be in the suggestions/homebrew/houserules forum?

Sorry, I didn't even think of it going in the home brew forum. Please move this.

What if you used the talents to gain spellcasting? Third level talent could be to gain second level access. Follow that type of progression.

The issue I've found is that other classless/point buy systems do PF/D&D better than PF/D&D does classless/point buy. So if I'm going for a classless D&D feel, I'd probably just go for HERO system, and go from there.

Sorry, I didn't even think of it going in the home brew forum. Please move this.

What if you used the talents to gain spellcasting? Third level talent could be to gain second level access. Follow that type of progression.

How would you balance out the character who took fighter-type stuff for the first 5 levels, followed by taking 3rd level spells, then more fighting stuff (BAB, good saves all round, extra damage, etc) and then took 7th level spells?

If you keep the spell levels, then you also have to insist on characters having to take lower level spells before they take higher level ones, which means that you end up with the same thing as the existing wizards and clerics, etc. Or you have ot be happy with characters at 15th-20th level being the equivalent of 10th level fighters who have the spellcasting of high level wizards.

Or you have to change the entire magic system.

As Tholomyes said, there are better systems to do this in. GURPS, Hero, even Ars Magica! (since it already lacks classes as such.)

A motivating factor behind the idea is I already have the books for PF and I have a family to take of, in my own mind, it doesn't seem right to sink more money into another game system.

"How would you balance out the character who took fighter-type stuff for the first 5 levels, followed by taking 3rd level spells, then more fighting stuff (BAB, good saves all round, extra damage, etc) and then took 7th level spells?"

For this it would have to be the trial and error of play testing. My initial response is to make the previous level of spell casting and a minimum level a prerequisite.

I think it also might be better to step away from the vancian system as well. Maybe if you choose a spell casting option you choose a mental stat to be your "casting" stat. From there use something akin to power points or even the old star wars d20 method of drain vitality (hp) for each spell.

That in turn would lead to the vitality/wound system.

This makes me think of the system they use for Bravely Default. Basically, you chose your classes on the fly outside of combat in that game, as per the job system of the old Final Fantasy games. However, it seems like what you're proposing here may be a bit less mutable.

A motivating factor behind the idea is I already have the books for PF and I have a family to take of, in my own mind, it doesn't seem right to sink more money into another game system.

"How would you balance out the character who took fighter-type stuff for the first 5 levels, followed by taking 3rd level spells, then more fighting stuff (BAB, good saves all round, extra damage, etc) and then took 7th level spells?"

For this it would have to be the trial and error of play testing. My initial response is to make the previous level of spell casting and a minimum level a prerequisite.

I think it also might be better to step away from the vancian system as well. Maybe if you choose a spell casting option you choose a mental stat to be your "casting" stat. From there use something akin to power points or even the old star wars d20 method of drain vitality (hp) for each spell.

That in turn would lead to the vitality/wound system.

Considering that you seem to want to change so much about the system that hardly anything would be left, perhaps you should simply sell your books on EBay and use the money to buy some used copies of HERO or GURPS.

Or since you seem to have such an idea of what you want to change, MAKE those changes yourself. Paizo isn't going to remake the entire game just for 2 people in Leadworth, to coin a phrase.

The way I'd do it:

Make 3 generic classes. Warrior, Expert, Caster.

They act as a sliding scale between stats and talents.

-Stats: Determines the raw numerical power of the class. Involves BAB, Saves, HD, skill points.

-Talents: Determines the special abilities of the class. Involves class features(including casting)/feats.

Warrior has best stats, worst talents, Expert is in the middle for both, Caster has the worst stats but most talents/level.

Numerically:

Warrior has Full BAB, d10HD, All good saves, 6 skill points, 1 talent/level.

Expert has 3/4th BAB, d8HD, 2 good saves, 4 skill points, 2 talent/level

Caster has 1/2th BAB, d6HD, 1 good save, 2 skill points, 3 talent/level.

Everything is added fractionally, so 2 3/4th BAB level and 1 1/2BAB=2BAB (instead of 1 if you went with usual multiclassing rules)

Talents are kinda like class features turned into feats, including things like proficiencies and class skills. At first level you get 5 extra talents, then a number of talents based on your selected class for the level.

For how talents/class features are set up, check out the "Talented" line of books from Rogue Genius games, and make up your own based on those for the other classes.

I'd add the following ideas for spellcasting:

All spellcasting works like Sorcerer casting (spontaneous arcane), but Metamagic does not take extra time, and you can pick spells off of any list (but it always works off of the highest level from the list).
INT adds to your spells known, Wisdom adds to your spells/day, Charisma adds to the DC of your spells.

A few more talents that can each be taken multiple times:
-Spell level: gives you +1 caster level (up to character level), which influences your spells/day and what spells you can cast, advancing as the sorcerers daily spells table.
-Spells known: gives you +1 level to spells known, as per the sorcerer spells known table. This can go above your character level, but you don't get spells from higher levels until you can actually cast them.
-Armored casting: Reduce spell failure chance for casting in armor by 10%.
-Unusual casting tradition: You may switch which mental stat affects which statistic of your casting (you could have spell DC set by wisdom and spells/day set by charisma), or you may replace one with a physical stat (spells known based on dexterity instead of INT, for example, reflecting on your character's uncanny ability to memorize and perform the gestures needed for casting spells). You can't have 2 aspects of your casting work off of the same stat.

krevon wrote:

A motivating factor behind the idea is I already have the books for PF and I have a family to take of, in my own mind, it doesn't seem right to sink more money into another game system.

"How would you balance out the character who took fighter-type stuff for the first 5 levels, followed by taking 3rd level spells, then more fighting stuff (BAB, good saves all round, extra damage, etc) and then took 7th level spells?"

For this it would have to be the trial and error of play testing. My initial response is to make the previous level of spell casting and a minimum level a prerequisite.

I think it also might be better to step away from the vancian system as well. Maybe if you choose a spell casting option you choose a mental stat to be your "casting" stat. From there use something akin to power points or even the old star wars d20 method of drain vitality (hp) for each spell.

That in turn would lead to the vitality/wound system.

Considering that you seem to want to change so much about the system that hardly anything would be left, perhaps you should simply sell your books on EBay and use the money to buy some used copies of HERO or GURPS.

Or since you seem to have such an idea of what you want to change, MAKE those changes yourself. Paizo isn't going to remake the entire game just for 2 people in Leadworth, to coin a phrase.

Because I want to have the option to do both types of games.

The way I'd do it:

Make 3 generic classes. Warrior, Expert, Caster.

They act as a sliding scale between stats and talents.

-Stats: Determines the raw numerical power of the class. Involves BAB, Saves, HD, skill points.

-Talents: Determines the special abilities of the class. Involves class features(including casting)/feats.

Warrior has best stats, worst talents, Expert is in the middle for both, Caster has the worst stats but most talents/level.

Numerically:

Warrior has Full BAB, d10HD, All good saves, 6 skill points, 1 talent/level.

Expert has 3/4th BAB, d8HD, 2 good saves, 4 skill points, 2 talent/level

Caster has 1/2th BAB, d6HD, 1 good save, 2 skill points, 3 talent/level.

Everything is added fractionally, so 2 3/4th BAB level and 1 1/2BAB=2BAB (instead of 1 if you went with usual multiclassing rules)

Talents are kinda like class features turned into feats, including things like proficiencies and class skills. At first level you get 5 extra talents, then a number of talents based on your selected class for the level.

For how talents/class features are set up, check out the "Talented" line of books from Rogue Genius games, and make up your own based on those for the other classes.

I'd add the following ideas for spellcasting:

All spellcasting works like Sorcerer casting (spontaneous arcane), but Metamagic does not take extra time, and you can pick spells off of any list (but it always works off of the highest level from the list).
INT adds to your spells known, Wisdom adds to your spells/day, Charisma adds to the DC of your spells.

A few more talents that can each be taken multiple times:
-Spell level: gives you +1 caster level (up to character level), which influences your spells/day and what spells you can cast, advancing as the sorcerers daily spells table.
-Spells known: gives you +1 level to spells known, as per the sorcerer spells known table. This can go above your character level, but you don't get spells from higher levels until you can actually...

Thats interesting. How would you handle the pre packaged proficiencies that we see in classes now?

i've been contemplating a system somewhat similar to LoneKnave's suggestion for a little while now... i've been too busy in grad school to write it up or run a full playtest yet, but over the summer i might (and possibly publish it as a PDF- so if you're still looking come fall keep that in mind, lol).

in the meantime- GURPS is a completely classless system designed to be playable in any setting (fantasy, steampunk, superheroes, dystopian future... ) and there's a ton of used stuff on ebay (and elsewhere too i'm sure). in fact, 30 seconds of effort found the core rulebook for $20 (in hardcover, i think there's a soft cover too that should be even cheaper). The storyteller system (from White Wolf) is also classless, though their games are built around a specific setting/theme; I'm sure you could find cheap used copies of those as well.

Thats interesting. How would you handle the pre packaged proficiencies that we see in classes now?

Either make backgrounds that give a 4-6 proficiencies or just let players pick, say, 4 skills to be proficient in and can buy 4 more for a talents.

krevon wrote:

Thats interesting. How would you handle the pre packaged proficiencies that we see in classes now?

Either make backgrounds that give a 4-6 proficiencies or just let players pick, say, 4 skills to be proficient in and can buy 4 more for a talents.

I realized that you probably meant armor and weapon proficiencies. I think those fit at a talent a piece price that you can buy at character creation from your extra talents.

LoneKnave wrote:

krevon wrote:

Thats interesting. How would you handle the pre packaged proficiencies that we see in classes now?

Either make backgrounds that give a 4-6 proficiencies or just let players pick, say, 4 skills to be proficient in and can buy 4 more for a talents.

I realized that you probably meant armor and weapon proficiencies. I think those fit at a talent a piece price that you can buy at character creation from your extra talents.

I like the idea of spending talent to gain proficiencies then feats to make it better. At the same time it also seems like it's falling into a player must specialize.

That's the "problem" the more point buy-y you get, the easier it is to specialize. You either have to set up the game so that specializing isn't as profitable (some mechanics/encounters designed that make rocket-tagging/alpha striking worse, for example) or just roll with it, and hope that the players specialize so they work best as a team, covering for each others weaknesses.