Spirited Charge and Cleave


Rules Questions


I have heard many debates about the Spirited Charge and Vital Strike combo. However, neither side offered substantial proof in the other threads I saw. Apparently they just yelled at each other all week. I would like to refrain from that in this thread.

My first question is that when you make a Spirited Charge can you Cleave and hit the second guy if you dropped the first. Normally only allowed one attack for a charge, but Cleave changes the rule to allow another attack when you normally wouldn't get one.

My second question is; does the mounts movement count as yours? If your mount moves more than 5 feet, I know it says you get one attack, but does that take away your move action? Could the horse make 2 move actions, then you fast dismount, and take your actions?

Please cite where you found your answer.


No. Cleave is a standard action. Charges are an attack, not a standard action.


Chess Pwn wrote:
No. Cleave is a standard action. Charges are an attack, not a standard action.

Ah yes, I forgot Pathfinder changed that part. However, if the mount moves and you are not charging, can you use Cleave without the Spirited Charge bonus.

Which still leaves the second question unanswered.


prd wrote:
You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
prd wrote:

Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)

You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.

Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

This feat shows that if your mount move more than 5 feet the intent is to only give you a standard(attack) action.


You can use Spirited Charge and then Cleaving Finish, which is 3.5 Cleave. Ish. Note that a mounted charge counts as both rider and mount taking a charge action, and that only the first attack gets the lance multiplier (there's no ruling for Spirited Charge, but I wouldn't count on it being different).

If your mount moves (more than a 5' step), you still have a full rounds worth of actions, but you can't take a full attack at the end of the mount's movement. For a melee character, the move action is usually wasted.


wraithstrike wrote:
prd wrote:
You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
prd wrote:

Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)

You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.

Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

This feat shows that if your mount move more than 5 feet the intent is to only give you a standard(attack) action.

Ah thanks, so basically the horse could technically do a full run, and the rider could make 1 standard attack action. However, it does imply that I could get my full rounds of actions as long as I use them for Moves or Standard Actions (not full-round).

Hypothetical:
So the horse can run and the rider can drink a potion and cast a spell. Though, it would... look ridiculous. That would fit with in the rules correct?


Blue Nova wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
prd wrote:
You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
prd wrote:

Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)

You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.

Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

This feat shows that if your mount move more than 5 feet the intent is to only give you a standard(attack) action.

Ah thanks, so basically the horse could technically do a full run, and the rider could make 1 standard attack action. However, it does imply that I could get my full rounds of actions as long as I use them for Moves or Standard Actions (not full-round).

Hypothetical:
So the horse can run and the rider can drink a potion and cast a spell. Though, it would... look ridiculous. That would fit with in the rules correct?

If you horse moves more then 5 feet you only get a standard action for yourself.

Basically the CRB rules give you more leeway than the feat suggest you are supposed to have.

Expect table variation until Paizo fixes the mounted rules, which may never happen.


Oh okay, so one standard action is all you get if your horse moves 10 feet. Well, that sucks, might as well have your mount move as far as he can get away with. It doesn't make much sense why you couldn't preform a move action just because your horse moved. I mean, what if you mounted a creature that was already in initiatives... would that wreck your actions available because your mounted? Would the mount suddenly be on your initiative? I guess mounted combat just has too many holes to make a sound judgement on this?


"Standard action only" is incorrect. You get a full turn's worth of actions, except you can't make a melee full attack (or, by extension, any other full-round action that requires you to stay in place). You can do a ranged full attack, or spend a move action to draw an item, load a weapon or activate move-action abilities.


Yeah, you have a full suite of actions unless your mount (and therefore you also) is charging. Unless it's been explicitly disallowed in a FAQ or errata somewhere, you could have your mount run, then make the ride check to dismount as a free action, then run yourself. I wouldn't count on anyone actually letting you do it, though.

If your mount is charging, you are charging, though how you're both supposed to make an attack at the end per RAW is beyond me (because if you're charging on a mount you're using a lance). I usually just say only one of them HAS to make an attack, and the other MAY make an attack.


Yeah...mounted rules are actually kind of bad and inconsistent within themselves.

There is a vague idea of how they're supposed to work but no one is 100% sure.

For instance it's unclear if when charging you are also supposed to be taken the charge action along with your mount of it it's the mount alone.

It's gone back forth a few times both in the rules and FAQs and hasn't been consistent.

What is clear is that you definitely don't get a full attack without mounted skirmisher, but answering the previous question is important because it decides whether you could (for instance) drink a potion (in hand) as a move action on the way to the target of your charge before making the attack you're allotted. You do get the bonuses and penalties for charging, but ehhh.....the rules are unclear overall.

Paizo needs to a fresh rewrite of the rules, but I don't know if that will ever come.


Claxon wrote:

Yeah...mounted rules are actually kind of bad and inconsistent within themselves.

There is a vague idea of how they're supposed to work but no one is 100% sure.

For instance it's unclear if when charging you are also supposed to be taken the charge action along with your mount of it it's the mount alone.

It's gone back forth a few times both in the rules and FAQs and hasn't been consistent.

What is clear is that you definitely don't get a full attack without mounted skirmisher, but answering the previous question is important because it decides whether you could (for instance) drink a potion (in hand) as a move action on the way to the target of your charge before making the attack you're allotted. You do get the bonuses and penalties for charging, but ehhh.....the rules are unclear overall.

Paizo needs to a fresh rewrite of the rules, but I don't know if that will ever come.

You get all your actions while mounted. That's spellcasters can cast full round spells while mounted and ranged people can make full attacks. Melee is the only one that can't full attack if the mount moves. So you do have your move action for move action stuff.

And the FAQ says you charge with your mount, so both are doing the charge action.


Chess Pwn, I know you get all your action while mounted, I was specifically talking about mounted charging and whether or not you simply benefited from the charge and still had your move action or whether you were actually also using the charge action (which is a special full-round action).

The FAQ and the core rules contradict, or at least the core rules are unclear.

And I agree that both are using the charge action. My greater point was that in generally, the mounted combat rules are poorly written and need to be rewritten for clarity and usability.

Scarab Sages

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The intent of the FAQ was to note that for something to qualify as a "mounted charge", both the rider and the mount must spend a charge action. If your mount charges and you choose to take a separate set of actions (such as using your move action to draw an item or activate a class feature and then taking the attack action as your standard action) you do not gain the benefits of the charge, nor of any feats or abilities that require a mounted charge, such as Spirited Charge or the lance's damage multiplier.

Stephen Radley-McFarland made this very clear in the thread that led to the FAQ (I was there), and then unfortunately wrote a FAQ that was almost as confusing as having no FAQ at all.

Overall, the mounted combat rules are a hot mess that work best the less you try to follow the RAW.

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