Buckle Your Swashes (Inactive)

Game Master Brian Minhinnick

I think I'm going to bow out of this. Just ain't had time enough to read the changes well enough to do it justice, and I don't wanna hold others back.

Well...It's not even going to start any time soon. It's up to you though, man. It'll probably be another two months before we get going. I've still got to finish the feats, and then also finish reading the RC book and get some Roll20 prepped.

What I'm trying to say is, if you're interested, you'll have plenty of time to get ready.

Still here, just being quiet for now. Thinking of ideas.

How watery is the campaign going to be? You know, how much are we going to be on the high seas and so on?

More near the end. It's somewhat up to you guys, there's no set plot but rather a plot web. Depending on where you follow it, different things might happen. There will definitely be at least some nautical stuff though. A rank or two in swim and perhaps someone with Prof (sailor) wouldn't be a bad thing.

All abilities key off total hero level, they are archetypes not different classes.

The whole point of the system is to only have one class. I guess there is the minor difference from PF archetypes in that you can take different ones at different levels. But other than that its the same. I think what you really want is a chart for each archetype, but I'm too lazy to do that. I haven't even finished feats for all the classes yet.

Edit:Put most of the archetype stuff on the class chart.

Oh! So wait, I could go Hero 4/Martial 2 instead of Martial 6, and I'll get:

That makes me wonder, do a Divine Hero 6 and a Martial 5/Divine 1 both get full 14 faith points? If that's right there's no incentive to take > 1 level in Divine or Arcane...and a pretty strong incentive for everyone to take exactly one level in at least one of those two.

[BTW, just go to the end of this and remembered that we start at l5 not l6...but you get the idea]

Hmmmm. Perhaps I should change that then. You make a good point that it just incentivises dips. But even if I don't change it, mana and spells etc would be only based on that particular archetype's level.

Basically add a caveat that says any class feature feat that has an archetype as a prerequisite only counts hero levels with that archetype as class levels for that class feature.

Or get rid of martial entirely, switch the martial feat prereqs to BAB prereqs, and make a feat that gives +1 BAB (max BAB of your HD).

I like that last idea a lot actually. What do the rest of you think of that? It would free up the system even more, make it simpler.

Ok....Jelani reeled me back in. Going with a voodoo'ish style character.

I like that second option...and it gives the option of a skillful martial.

I have to say that divine / arcane / martial are feeling less like archetypes and -- when you look at multiclassing, more like classes...or like something halfway between the two that'll need to be very carefully defined (and that maybe shouldn't use either PF term of class or archetype, since its mechanics are pretty different.

My inclination is to just create 3 or 4 classes (Divine, Arcane, Martial, and Hero...or combine the last two into one class, as you suggested.

BTW, I'm not sure that the "at first level" restriction makes sense (at least as currently done). Take the Cavalier Mount, Order, and Tactician abilities. All must be taken at 1st level, and since a (non-human) L1 character only has 2 feats, there's no way to build a character that starts with all of what a Cavalier starts with.

Also, does that mean the at 1st Char level? Or 1st level in that archetype? i.e. if one started divine but then went martial at a later level, could they not get a mount (or order, or tactician)?

BTW, many of the level reqs feel pretty arbitrary to me. Some are very sensible because they'd be overly powerful low level abilities...but others are weak abilities that happen to come to a class at later levels, e.g. would Trap Sense at L1 be broken? Or is it just limited to L3 because thats when Rogues get it? In a mix-and-match world, I think many of those reqs could be done away with...leaving only the ones that're truly there for balance...but then this system isn really about modularity WAY more than it's about balance anyway, so maybe you don't need any level restrictions at all?

Alright, I'm going to do away with martial and add a feat for BAB.

You also make a good point about level pre-reqs. I'll probably remove them from everything that doesn't scale with level.

I could make divine and arcane separate classes as well. All it would really do is change some of the terminology. But then we could just use normal multiclassing rules. I think I'll do that as I have time.

So people making characters keep the above in mind. I won't have time to modify the document right away.

I'll keep playing around with my concept(s). Still here, just nothing new to add right now.

Okay, Martial is gone. I am also removing a bunch of feat pre-reqs.

Okay, now all core and base classes should have feats. Pre-reqs have been streamlined somewhat. I added a feat to increase BAB and I'm also going to add one to increase HP (since d8 is the highest hit die now).

Now, to address your complaint that armor sucks.

Let's math.

Example dude 1 is a hero 5 with 18 dex. His defense is 19 when he's running around naked.

Example girl 1 is a hero 5 with 12 dex, heavy armor and a shield. Her defense is 13, and she has DR 9/Armor.

Their opponent is bucky the sniper squirrel. He's attacking them with his acorn rifle at +8 to hit. To make this easy it always does 8 damage (Average of a musket+deadly aim). x4 crit modifier. He shoots them both 5 times. Who will take more damage?

Dude 1 - .5(8)+.05*.5(8) = 4.2*5 = 21 damage to him.

Girl 1 - (.7(8)+.05*.7(8))-5 = .88*5 = 4.4 damage to her.

So your worry that armor sucks against guns is not actually accurate. It's way too good against guns. Let's throw in a light and medium armor scenario (18 dex and 16 dex respectively).

Light - .7(8)+.05*.7(8) = 5.88*5 = 29.4 damage

Light w/ shield - .5(8)+.05*.5(8) = 21 damage

Medium - .8(8)+.05*.8(8)-2 = 4.72*5 = 23.6 damage

Medium w/ shield - (.7(8)+.05*.7(8))-2 = 3.88*5 = 19.4 damage

So the girl with heavy armor takes by far the least damage. Then the person with medium armor and a shield. If you have a dex of 18 or higher you're better off not wearing armor.

Based on the results of this test, heavy armor is way OP. Even against guns. Light armor is useless, even for someone with high dex (at least against guns). So I'm going to remove light armor from the game, and lower the DR of heavy armor by two points.

Edit:Lowering the DR of heavy armor means Girl 1 would take 14.4 damage. Still five points less than the medium armor person.

Ok...so far I'm thinking about the following options, all of which are the Divine caster path, Charisma primary casting stat, Cleric spell list:

1) Dual Domains
1 Human: Animal Domain
1: Trickery Domain
3: Boon Companion
4: Wild Shape
5: Natural Spell

Benefits: Speaking with Animals, Wild Shaping, Plenty of sneaky shenanigans

2) Single Domain
1 Human: Nature Bond
1: Trickery Domain
3: Lay On Hands
4: Wild Shape
5: Natural Spell

Benefits: Better feat utilization, more healing potential, but no more animal talky talky,

3) Combative Voodoo Mon
1 Human: BAB Feat
1: HD Feat
3: Lay on Hands
4: Wild Shape
5: Natural Spell

Benefits: More direct combat utility, less trickster style.

Of the three I'm leaning towards option 2, but would like some input.

Yay Math!!

I think your calculations are off though. I'm using DPR = h(d+s)+(t*c*h*d) where:
h = hit %
d = ave dam
s = ave precision dam
t = crit threat %
c = crit bonus

H1 is an L5 hero with an 18 DEX. Her DEF = 10+4+6=20
H2 is an L5 hero with a 14 DEX. Her DEF = 10+2+6=18
H3 is an L5 hero with a 12 DEX and heavy armor. Her DEF = 10+1=11 and her DR is 8/armor

Note, any of these three could chose to use a shield or a 2H weapon. For now I’ll leave shields off of all of them.

Here are three 5 BAB foes for them:
M1 has a musket and deadly aim. She has +8 to hit and does ave 8 damage (or 4 after DR).
M2 is just like M1 but has a +1 musket. She has +9 to hit and does ave 9 dam (or 6 after DR).
M3 has a greatsword, 18 STR, and power attack. She has +8 to hit and does ave 19 dam (2d6+6+6).

I'll ignore s since none of my example foes do precision damage.

If M1 shoots all three, her DPR is:
H1 = .45*8 + .05*4*.45*8 = 4.32 ave dam/round
H2 = .55*8 + .05*4*.55*8 = 5.28 ave dam/round
H3 = .9*4 + .05*4*.9*4 = 4.32 ave dam/round

In other words, naked H1 does exactly as well as heavily armored H3. Low dex & naked H2 takes .96 dam more / round than she would if she wore heavy armor...though for that slim benefit she pays 1500gp, carries 50lb, loses 10’ of move, and gets -6 ACP.

Now what happens when M2 pulls out her +1 musket?
H1 = .5*9 + .05*4*.5*9 = 5.4 ave dam/round
H2 = .5*9 + .05*4*.5*9 = 6.48 ave dam/round
H3 = .95*6 + .05*4*.5*6 = 6.84 ave dam/round

In other words, our armored friend takes more damage even than our low dex naked H2...and takes 1.44 dam / round more than H1.

OK, but what about against someone with a sword, where H3 gets the full benefit of her DR 8?
H1 = .45*19 + .1*2*.45*19 = 10.26 ave dam/round
H2 = .55*19 + .1*2*.55*19 = 12.54 ave dam/round
H3 = .9*12 + .1*2*.9*12 = 12.96 ave dam/round

...and so once again the armored one takes more damage than even the low-dex hero without armor...and it will only get more extreme with magic weapons, since they effectively do +2 damage vs armored foes for every +1 enhancement bonus they have (until they've reduced the DR to 0).

I maintain my position: armor (in this rules system) is for losers!

EDIT: Jelani (or others!) let me know if you have Qs about any of my calculations. I'm pretty sure they're correct but you never know.

Also, Thron, I like #2 and #3. Both seem like fun builds you couldn't do in a different system, and that could fit nicely on the Razor Coast.

If I go Druid spell list though...I can take Speak with Animals as a spell...

Seems a lot better than using a feat for it...

I like 2 also. Seems like the best balance.

Note, my proposed way to fix armor (if you want it to ever make sense for anyone) is:
- allow at least some of the class DEF bonus with it (possibly modified or limited by ACP), and
- don't double the effectiveness of weapon enhancement bonuses against armor

I don't think just increasing the DR's a good idea, and in fact you might need to lower it some if you do decide to let armored folks keep some or all of their DEF bonus.

Note that the way they do it in Iron Heroes -- where they keep their full Base Defense Bonus but armor gives much less DR (ranging from 1d2 DR for leather to 1d8 for plate) -- gives a strong incentive to wear light armor but makes heavy rare unless one uses feats or class features to make it worth it.

Huh. Thron and I seem to have similar ideas for characters. That wouldn't be an issue, would it Jelani?

My guy is going to be Very much a deceptionist, conman, and trickster. You going that route?

Yay Math!!

I think your calculations are off though. I'm using DPR = h(d+s)+(t*c*h*d) where:
h = hit %
d = ave dam
s = ave precision dam
t = crit threat %
c = crit bonus

H1 is an L5 hero with an 18 DEX. Her DEF = 10+4+6=20
H2 is an L5 hero with a 14 DEX. Her DEF = 10+2+6=18
H3 is an L5 hero with a 12 DEX and heavy armor. Her DEF = 10+1=11 and her DR is 8/armor

Note, any of these three could chose to use a shield or a 2H weapon. For now I’ll leave shields off of all of them.

Here are three 5 BAB foes for them:
M1 has a musket and deadly aim. She has +8 to hit and does ave 8 damage (or 4 after DR).
M2 is just like M1 but has a +1 musket. She has +9 to hit and does ave 9 dam (or 6 after DR).
M3 has a greatsword, 18 STR, and power attack. She has +8 to hit and does ave 19 dam (2d6+6+6).

I'll ignore s since none of my example foes do precision damage.

If M1 shoots all three, her DPR is:
H1 = .45*8 + .05*4*.45*8 = 4.32 ave dam/round
H2 = .55*8 + .05*4*.55*8 = 5.28 ave dam/round
H3 = .9*4 + .05*4*.9*4 = 4.32 ave dam/round

In other words, naked H1 does exactly as well as heavily armored H3. Low dex & naked H2 takes .96 dam more / round than she would if she wore heavy armor...though for that slim benefit she pays 1500gp, carries 50lb, loses 10’ of move, and gets -6 ACP.

Now what happens when M2 pulls out her +1 musket?
H1 = .5*9 + .05*4*.5*9 = 5.4 ave dam/round
H2 = .5*9 + .05*4*.5*9 = 6.48 ave dam/round
H3 = .95*6 + .05*4*.5*6 = 6.84 ave dam/round

In other words, our armored friend takes more damage even than our low dex naked H2...and takes 1.44 dam / round more than H1.

OK, but what about against someone with a sword, where H3 gets the full benefit of her DR 8?
H1 = .45*19 + .1*2*.45*19 = 10.26 ave dam/round
H2 = .55*19 + .1*2*.55*19 = 12.54 ave dam/round
H3 = .9*12 + .1*2*.9*12 = 12.96 ave dam/round

...and so once again the armored one takes more damage than even the low-dex hero without armor...and it will only get more extreme with magic...

Hurrr....?

How did we come up with such different numbers using the same formula essentially?

I have DR for heavy armor at 7 after my math post.

Your H3 vs M1 should be (.9*8+.05*.9(24))-3 = 5.28 because DR is only applied once even on a crit. And it would only take away 3.

So heavy armor guy is taking same average damage as H2. Hmmm...annoying. Let's say that guns vs armor is just win though and look at the greatsword instead.

M3 vs H3 (.9*19+.1*.9(19))-7 = 11.81
M3 vs H2 (.55*19+.1*.55(19)) = 11.495

So yeah, you're right. Naked dude with 14 dex is taking less damage from a greatsword than fullplate dude on average. That ain't right. -sigh-

Huh. Thron and I seem to have similar ideas for characters. That wouldn't be an issue, would it Jelani?

I don't think so.

What if I just change it so that armor has no effect on defense bonus and make it so that guns ignore DR/armor completely?

Then the math would look like

M1 vs H3 - (.6*8+.05*.6(24)) = 5.52
M1 vs H2 - (.55*8 + .05*.55(24)) = 5.28
M3 vs H3 - (.6*19+.1*.6(19))-7 = 5.54
M3 vs H2 - (.55*19 + .1*.55(19)) = 11.49

So against a gun, naked dude and full plate dude are essentially equal. Against a greatsword, fullplate dude does way better. There would still be penalties for wearing armor that way (ACP, arcane failure, weight, max dex to defense, etc), but it would help against traditional weapons still. Also it would be a good option for low dex people in that scenario.

God, my English sucks now 因为我总是说中文! 英文都忘记了... (~_~)*

That seems like a nice improvement to me.

BTW, I think the biggest error in your calcs is subtracting DR from DPR...which (because DPR includes an average of the rounds you hit and the ones you missed) means you're applying DR to misses as well as to hits. The other error I see in your calcs is you aren't adding in the crit multiplier for the sword, and you're counting it as 3x instead of 4x for the musket.

As you pointed out, my calc was wrong too (subtracting DR*crit mod on crits). I think the right formula would be: h(d-DR)+(t*h*(c*d-DR)) Does that make sense?

If so, these calcs it'll be:
M1 vs H3 = .6*8 + .05*4*.6*8 = 5.76
M1 vs H2 = .55*8 + .05*4*.55*8 = 5.28
M3 vs H3 = .6*(19-7)+.1*.6((19*2)-7) = 9.06
M3 vs H2 = .55*(19-0)+.1*.55((19*2)-0) = 12.54

Yeah, that does make sense. Also the damage numbers come out more in line with what I'm looking for.

If you are bored want to run for light and medium armor as well? I would do it but I'm trying to catch up on homework :P

Changing topics...how could I get Improved Trip without needing a 13 INT (and ideally without needing to spend two feats, i.e. no need for combat expertise)?

The best I've come up with is if I took a level of Divine Hero I could take the Wolf Domain (which grants Improve Trip as a bonus) or take the Battle Oracle Mystery + the Maneuver Master Revelation, which grants Impr Trip at 7th...but my concept is pretty far from a divine anything right now. I suppose I could reskin the idea of the wolf domain, but I don't picture this guy getting any spells.

What options am I missing?

(Note, I'm also considering just never taking it. My build will choose between hitting for damage+demoralize OR tripping...and I could just decide to rarely trip foes that're 5' away, instead tripping those who're 10-15' away and dealing damage to those who're closest. Not really sure how limiting that'll be...which is too bad because I can't go back later and take the two feats unless I also raise his INT by 3 pts somehow...)

If you say Heavy = DR 7 and Med = DR 6 then (with a 14 DEX) Med armor is *better* protection vs the greatsword than heavy is: DPR = 8.91. If Heavy goes back to DR 8 then the DPR drops to 8.4 (very slightly better than Med).

For light, DPR climbs to 10.12

With your current rules, likely to give Samir mithral med armor (breastplate) for Dr 6 and an ACP of only -1 (or -0 if I use a trait for it).

Aight. Bed now. GL on HW!

Changing topics...how could I get Improved Trip without needing a 13 INT (and ideally without needing to spend two feats, i.e. no need for combat expertise)?

The best I've come up with is if I took a level of Divine Hero I could take the Wolf Domain (which grants Improve Trip as a bonus) or take the Battle Oracle Mystery + the Maneuver Master Revelation, which grants Impr Trip at 7th...but my concept is pretty far from a divine anything right now. I suppose I could reskin the idea of the wolf domain, but I don't picture this guy getting any spells.

What options am I missing?

(Note, I'm also considering just never taking it. My build will choose between hitting for damage+demoralize OR tripping...and I could just decide to rarely trip foes that're 5' away, instead tripping those who're 10-15' away and dealing damage to those who're closest. Not really sure how limiting that'll be...which is too bad because I can't go back later and take the two feats unless I also raise his INT by 3 pts somehow...)

I'll add a feat for Brawler's Cunning.

If you say Heavy = DR 7 and Med = DR 6 then (with a 14 DEX) Med armor is *better* protection vs the greatsword than heavy is: DPR = 8.91. If Heavy goes back to DR 8 then the DPR drops to 8.4 (very slightly better than Med).

For light, DPR climbs to 10.12

With your current rules, likely to give Samir mithral med armor (breastplate) for Dr 6 and an ACP of only -1 (or -0 if I use a trait for it).

Aight. Bed now. GL on HW!

What if I make it, Light= DR 4, Medium DR 6, Heavy DR 9 again...

I'll crunch the numbers when I finish HW.

Here are two 5 BAB foes for them:
M1 has a musket and deadly aim. She has +8 to hit and does ave 8 damage (or 4 after DR).
M2 has a greatsword, 18 STR, and power attack. She has +8 to hit and does ave 19 dam (2d6+6+6).

H1 is an L5 hero with an 18 DEX. Her DEF = 10+4+6=20 and DR is 4/armor
H2 is an L5 hero with a 16 DEX. Her DEF = 10+3+6=19 and DR is 6/armor
H3 is an L5 hero with a 12 DEX. Her DEF = 10+1+6=17 and her DR is 9/armor

M1 vs HI = .55*8 + .05*4*.55*8 = 5.28
M1 vs H2 = .6*8 + .05*4*.6*8 = 5.76
M1 vs H3 = .7*8 + .05*4*.7*8 = 6.72

M2 vs HI = .55*15 + .1*2*.55*15 = 9.9
M2 vs H2 = .6*13 + .1*2*.6*13 = 9.36
M2 vs H3 = .7*10 + .05*4*.7*10 = 8.4

So the heavily armored hero takes less damage from guns than blades, and not significantly less damage than the lesser armored foes against blades. I want to stratify it a bit more so I might tweak the DR numbers a bit more. Maybe:

H1 is an L5 hero with an 18 DEX. Her DEF = 10+4+6=20 and DR is 2/armor
H2 is an L5 hero with a 16 DEX. Her DEF = 10+3+6=19 and DR is 7/armor
H3 is an L5 hero with a 12 DEX. Her DEF = 10+1+6=17 and her DR is 10/armor

M2 vs HI = .55*16 + .1*2*.55*16 = 10.56
M2 vs H2 = .6*12 + .1*2*.6*12 = 8.64
M2 vs H3 = .7*9 + .05*4*.7*9 = 7.56

Then it becomes a game of "Oh s*#%, that guy has plate mail! Somebody shoot him!" Because using something like a shortsword on someone in plate would be pointless, similar to how it is IRL in most cases. Super buff dude with giant sword might be able to hurt plate man as well as a pistol, but most other people can't.

I like those last numbers the best, I'm going to add them to the document for now.

gyrfalcon wrote:

Changing topics...how could I get Improved Trip without needing a 13 INT (and ideally without needing to spend two feats, i.e. no need for combat expertise)?

The best I've come up with is if I took a level of Divine Hero I could take the Wolf Domain (which grants Improve Trip as a bonus) or take the Battle Oracle Mystery + the Maneuver Master Revelation, which grants Impr Trip at 7th...but my concept is pretty far from a divine anything right now. I suppose I could reskin the idea of the wolf domain, but I don't picture this guy getting any spells.

What options am I missing?

(Note, I'm also considering just never taking it. My build will choose between hitting for damage+demoralize OR tripping...and I could just decide to rarely trip foes that're 5' away, instead tripping those who're 10-15' away and dealing damage to those who're closest. Not really sure how limiting that'll be...which is too bad because I can't go back later and take the two feats unless I also raise his INT by 3 pts somehow...)

I'll add a feat for Brawler's Cunning.

Well, can't hurt to add but I doubt I'd ever take it: that makes it take 3 feats to get Improved Trip. That's just too expensive for me.

Would you consider letting a Hero take a domain for the powers, but not getting the extra spells, and re-fluffing it? (In my case I'd take the Wolf Domain

Or maybe even better, to have a feat that grants (one or more feats from the) Monk Bonus Feat ability, similar to how you allow a feat to grant one a Ranger's combat style feats? If you wanted to tie it to the same power level as the Ranger Combat Style, you could limit it to a bonus at 2nd, 6th, and 10th levels.

If I did allow monk bonus feats as a feat, they come with the pre-req of Unarmed Strike for sure. Can you live with that?

Seems reasonable. What are your thoughts about a spell-less domain for a hero?

If we go the monk route, at what levels does one get a feat?

Well, it would be the full class feature. So 1st, 2nd, 6th and 10th. If you take it after those levels it would kick in retroactively.

Saucy!

Hey Jelani, does FCB exist in this world? If so, is it just a flat +1 hp or sp at each level?

*cough cough*

Thanks, missed that!

Here is the work in progress profile. Had to drop Lay on Hands as that requires a good alignment...teeheehee.

CE?!?

Looking forward to that back story. ;-)

Is the campaign strictly good aligned? Did I miss a character creation alignment restriction?

No no no, I'm not complaining and I trust you as a player to create an interesting CE character... Unless jelani says otherwise I'm really just curious to learn about him.

Samir is quite neutral and will be compatible with all kinds of characters. Might be worth figuring out as a group about our motivations and compatibilities at some point though.

It would be best if the group all got along with each other alignment wise, but other than that there's no alignment restrictions.