Black Talons of Absalom (Inactive)

Game Master Dave Young 992

Gauging interest for a gangland/thieves' world campaign based in Absalom.

I'm just getting started, but here's the outline:

Start at 3rd level. 25 point buy, since there will only be 4 (maybe 5) of you, and you'll multiclass. Average hps (PFS rules). A straight rogue, for example, would have 18 hp before adjustments: 8+5+5.

2 traits, normal feats. I'm interested in concepts over numbers, to start.

4, possibly 5 players. I'd like the “traditional” roles to be reasonably covered: Arcane, divine, meatshield, and face/stealth/specialist/skillmonkey,” one way or another. There are many ways to do that.

One of your 3 levels must be in the rogue class. You must have 3 ranks in Stealth, and 1 rank in Bluff, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. Skills matter in the big city.

BAB will be determined by fractions, so levels in rogue won't hurt you too much. Poor: .5, Medium: .75, Good: 1. So, if you took 2 levels of rogue and a level of bard, your BAB wouldn't suffer. It would be 2.25, same as a straight rogue or bard. You could take a level in either class, add .75, and have BAB 3 at 4th, same as the straight classes alone. A rogue/fighter/wizard would have .75+1+.5, for 2.25.

Core races only. No cavaliers, gunslingers, summoners, or oriental classes allowed. Lawful good characters are out, too, so obviously no paladins. Ranged weapons aren't generally allowed in town, so archery builds won't get to do their thing that easily or often. The leadership feat, if we reach 7th, is not allowed. Standard starting wealth (3000 gp).

Anything in PFRPG, APG, or ISWG is allowed. Feats, traits, spells, etc., from other sources may be allowed on a case-by-case basis. I reserve the right to remove or alter them after allowing them, with a fair discussion of options, if I decide it doesn't fit.

There are also some options for the more “urban” prestige classes, like duelist and arcane trickster, to make them a little more fun to play. Ask, if you're interested.

You will be young toughs trying to establish street cred, expand your fortunes, and exert influence to protect your interests in the mean streets of the city at the center of the world. Guide to Absalom is strongly recommended reading, though it's not canon in itself.

Lots of role play, but I like lots of fighting and intrigue, too. I don't like PvP, though. You need to be loyal enough to get your gang established, and we all know what happens to traitors.

You'll be doing a lot in the city, but you'll go other places, too. Sometimes, maybe, by yourself.

Players should post daily. More is better. Weekends aren't mandatory, but encouraged. So, think up an interesting urban troublemaker, and tell me a little about her or him. Not too long, please.

I'm undecided as to whether you'd want gang wars for turf and such, or more specialized robbery capers, or some sort of mix. Alignments would veer toward chaotic, but I'm uneasy with a purely evil group. You might have some code of honor, and I'd like you to be likable in some ways, in a "bad guys who sometimes do good things" sort of way.

We won't start until January, so take your time. If you've tried to get into PbPs here before, but haven't managed to, you'll be given special consideration. More later.

OMG I have great idea that ive been wanting to play these two chracters but now I can combine!!!

Sanguine Sorc and Poisnoner Rouge! would that be ok?

A human cleric of Norgorber, the Grey Master, coming up. I love the concept of a sneaky cleric.

I have holiday things to do the next two days but will have this finalized on Sunday if that's ok.

Dotting for interest

I am certainly intrigued by this concept. I'll give it some thought and see what I can come up with. With the obligitory rogue, first thoughts are:

1) Cleric or Inquisitor of Achaekek (This option is likely to be evil in alignment).

2) Shadow School Wizard or Shadow Bloodline Sorcerer

3) Pure Rogue, uncertain on if I would use any archetypes (it would depend upon the structure of the rest of the group if selected).

I already have a good idea of what I'd like to play, trying to class as the Meatshield as a Rogue, Fighter :) if that's ok. I'll have the crunch up soon.

Interested, thinking Halfling Rogue, straight up. Might go into Shadowdancer. if we *must* multiclass, might take a level of Fighter, or other martial class.

I was thinking the possesed archtype of the oracle. Half-orc. Hates the gods doesn't know or care where his power comes from. Feels people need to strive to survive despite the gods meddling in their lives. 1/3 to 1/4 of his levels in rogue remainder in oracle.

Or

Halfling rogue/sorc maybe heading toward arcane trickster.

If you like one or the other, let me know and I will complete it tomorrow morning.

You don't have to multiclass beyond the 1 level of rogue. Straight rogue is fine.

@ Raventhorn: What could possibly be likable about that guy? Maybe he is likable, but I'm not seeing it...

?????

Ive just been wanting to play either a sanguine sorc or a poisoner rouge and then your campaign came up and I saw a way to combine the two into a character that would benefit both classes, he isnt evil but he wants to help run tjhe gang and have it become one of the more powerful gangs by use of subletry as well as neccessary war but tends to use deals and his smarts to gain power thus the delving into the "black arts"

So I present Sidoze

I do hope you like he does have his own code of honor but wants power above all else thus why he joined this gang.

Heres Grigori 1 level rogue 2 levels fighter, cause every gang needs a tough guy

Question on sources allowed: We need to run Ultimate Magic/Combat by you?

Also anything from 3rd party companies allowed?

Question on sources allowed: We need to run Ultimate Magic/Combat by you?

Also anything from 3rd party companies allowed?

Yes, I'll consider anything, really. Sometimes certain things end up being more than I bargained for, thus the reservation.

Show me what ya got.

Might as well throw this out there, before someone posts an archer.

More on Absalom:

Weapons:
In the city, only the watch and certain bodyguards are allowed to carry strung weapons and ammunition. Walking down the street with a strung bow and a quiver of arrows ready to go will get you unwanted attention, and maybe get your stuff confiscated. Ranged weapons can be had, of course, but if you buy a new bow, you have to take it home unstrung. That's the rule. In a city like this, though, not everybody cares about the rules. As you might guess, the market for concealable ranged weapons is pretty healthy, and throwable melee weapons like axes and daggers are common and legal.

Polearms aren't illegal, either, but are required to be sheathed when you walk the streets. Some places are pretty busy, and a moment of carelessness with your spear could hurt somebody. Since it takes a standard action to pull the cover off a polearm, most people don't bother with them.

While it's legal to carry melee weapons, most people don't. Those who do are generally fairly wealthy, guarding someone who's wealthy, or one of Absalom's ubiquitous “hotspurs,” young toughs out to impress, either by being impressive or at least trying to look impressive.

Absalom has many fighting schools and a vast gladiatorial arena called the Irorium, where combats are waged for money. Some of the duelists are quite good, and earn “sword pins,” indicating many victories in the Irorium, and according them celebrity status all over the city.

There are many combat styles from all over the Inner Sea, and you can probably find them all taught somewhere in Absalom, so a character with mastery of Dervish Dance or the style of the Aldori swordlords is very possible, so combat feats from regional sourcebooks can be had here, as well as any weapons listed in the above books.

Armor:

Absalom has a warm climate. Again, most people don't wear armor at all. Those who do tend towards leather (which is stylish among hotspurs), though the watch often wear various light or medium armors. There are no laws against any sort of armor, but you're sure to get lots of attention clanking down the thoroughfares in full plate. People do that sometimes, though, usually for parties and parades and such.

Feats:

Feats are pretty open, but subject to review and revision at my option. Leadership is out, as already explained.

There's one feat specific to this campaign:

Full Fighting: A character with at least 2 levels of a full BAB class (such as fighter) may add .25 to her base attack bonus. A rogue 1/ fighter 2 could, at 3rd CL, add .25 to her BAB, raising it from 2.75 to 3.

Prestige classes:

There are 2 that would work well in this campaign; arcane trickster and duelist. I changed them a little to make them more fun.

Arcane Trickster: Requirements changed to 1d6 sneak attack and evasion, so you only need 2 levels of rogue to qualify. You will need 5 ranks of knowledge (arcana), instead of 4. You gain weapon focus (ray) at 1st level, and a metamagic feat at 5th.

Duelist: Levels in duelist stack with levels of fighter to qualify for fighter-only feats, such as weapon specialization. The deflect arrows feat is gained at 2nd level, not 9th. At 9th level, you gain any feat for which you qualify.

All the other requirements remain the same.

Do you have players picked or is it still open?

Do you have players picked or is it still open?

Way open. Not starting until January, so there's no rush. Come up with a concept or 2 and post it!

Do I need to change anything Goblin? or were you saying you just dont like the character lol

Do I need to change anything Goblin? or were you saying you just dont like the character lol

Sorry, I do that a lot. GM Goblin King is my alias for the goblins game! I'm thinking "GM Gangsta Kingpin" for this one.

The whole necromancy and poison thing is a little dark, but I'll consider it.

Here's a fighter option from the earliest PFCRB, which wasn't carried over to this game.

Class Skills: A fighter trained at a famous war college or
fighting school gains the following class skills (in addition
to the normal fighter class skills): Diplomacy (Cha), Gather
Information (Cha), Knowledge (architecture and engineering)
(Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nobility
and royalty) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

The cost is your first bonus feat at F1.

I'll consider other things from that book, if you have it. I thought it was pretty cool.

Looking at the other concepts posted so far, I think I'll go with a human Inquisitor of Achaekek 1/Rogue 2 with the possibility of going into Red Mantis Assassin if allowed. This character would fill the "stealth/skill-monkey" type roll.

Please note that this profile exists as one of my aliases, but will be re-purposed for this game if accepted.

well you siad was a gang so made it slightly dark but I dont plan on playing him very dark just dark enough for trying to make the gang the most powerful

Sorry, Talomyr. RMA is very cool, but I see them as a rival faction. A RMA would be loyal to the RMAs above any other group. This party would be trying to start their own criminal enterprise, or rise to the top of one. Unless the whole gang was loyal to it, you'd have conflicts of interest somewhere down the road.

Kinda sucks, because it's a cool prestige class, and one the party might face someday.

That said, the regular assassin class is a possibility.

Sorry, Talomyr. RMA is very cool, but I see them as a rival faction. A RMA would be loyal to the RMAs above any other group. This party would be trying to start their own criminal enterprise, or rise to the top of one. Unless the whole gang was loyal to it, you'd have conflicts of interest somewhere down the road.

Kinda sucks, because it's a cool prestige class, and one the party might face someday.

That said, the regular assassin class is a possibility.

No problems. I'll just re-write what I was going for with Ranger (Urban Ranger) and Rogue (Knife Master) - Knife Master is from Ultimate Combat pg 72 if allowed...if not no big deal) and then go into Assassin as you have suggested.

No problems. I'll just re-write what I was going for with Ranger (Urban Ranger) and Rogue (Knife Master) - Knife Master is from Ultimate Combat pg 72 if allowed...if not no big deal)

** spoiler omitted **...

Very cool. Yeah, one of the goblins is a knife master, and it's lots of fun. Good synergy, there.

You know, if someone wanted to GM a Red Mantis campaign, I'd be totally up for it.

If Tal is going to be the combat Rogue, I'll go Inquisitor(fast becoming a new favorite class for me) focused on stealth.

So Rogue 1/Inquisitor 2, Infiltrator Archetype. Really wish I could take Heretic as well, but they both trade out Monster Lore.

Some cool ideas so far. There are quite a few options that lend themselves to an urban/roguish campaign. I'm intrigued by the urban variants; ranger, druid, even barbarian all have their advantages.

The rogue level is meant to indicate a character acquainted with the skills a dirty, low-down hustler would be familiar with; the stab in the back, lying well, sneaking around, filching valuables, and all the other things your mom taught you to not do. Whatever your "main" career path is, there's a little bit (or maybe a lot) of rogue in you.

Recruitment will remain open for a few more days to give people time to mull it over and come up with the character they'd really like to play. If you'd like to play an elf arcane trickster, or a half orc barbarian/duelist, but there are already 3 others with the same idea, post it anyway.

If you don't make the cut, you'll still be an alternate. People often have to quit the game, or they get killed, so fresh meat may be needed. Everybody dreams of being the king of the underworld, but the competition is fierce, and more than one hotspur who thought he could have it all has ended up feeding the fishes of the Flotsam Graveyard.

I GM one game, and play in 2 others, currently. You may see that game and decide my style isn't for you. Feel free to ask any questions you may have. I'm here every day.

Is there an email we can reach you in case we cant connect to paizo and need to ask you something?

Looking at your above comment and then checkin some stuff out, it seems the Rogue level you want us all to have is just so we can stab people well. Lol.

Seriously though, if you changed the Rogue requirement to a class that has both Stealth and Bluff as class skills, and kept the 3 ranks in Stealth, that would allow Bards, Clerics with the Trickery Domain, Sorcerers with the Shadow Bloodline and Inquisitors to not have to multiclass.

While I readily admit this benefits me, as I'm playing an Inquisitor, I have no problem with getting Sneak Attack, I just wonder if having that is all that important.

It has more to do with the kind of characters you are, or might become. I know that a level of rogue hurts spellcasters, but it reflects training you've gotten, one way or another, and an outlook you all share to some degree. Lots of characters can be like rogues, but they're not exactly rogues, though. Think of it as the price of membership.

The high point buy is meant as a sort of compensation for the forced level. You're good at lots of things, and have the ability to survive by your wits as well as by your other class abilities.

So far we've got:

Sidoze: 1/2 elf rog 1/sor 2
Grigori: Human ftr 2/rog 1
Andrezi Zeldana: rgr ?/rog ?
Monkeygod's guy: rog 1/ inq 2

Still plenty of time.

Andrezi is ranger 1 / rogue 2

Lol anyone else excited about this game?

hahahaha makes me want to watch Gangs of New York wonder why ;)

Could everyone post their race? was just curious on whos a what lol I know Im a half elf and gregori is human but didnt catch everyone else

Lol anyone else excited about this game?

Yes!

Andrezi is a human.

Either Human or Elf. Not sure just yet.

Too bad non standard races are out, Fetchling would be awesome here lol

Edit:

Can you give us a little more background for this??

Are we working for an established gang? Or are us PCs coming together to form a brand new group?

Should we already know each other? After all we're 3rd level.

Either Human or Elf. Not sure just yet.

Too bad non standard races are out, Fetchling would be awesome here lol

Edit:

Can you give us a little more background for this??

Are we working for an established gang? Or are us PCs coming together to form a brand new group?

Should we already know each other? After all we're 3rd level.

I think we are establishing the gang monkey. Benicio?

btw just saying just incase we all know each other and if im selected,

Character wise Sidoze wants to be the leader of the gang as he is aspiring for the power to run the streets/city blah blah blah

Player wise I would never do anything to disrupt the group and how others would play their characters and cause pvp I would assume ooc we would all talk and plan things as we would around a table top

neways thought I should say that for later on

I want to leave those questions open for now. I'm inclined to think you're a "set" for a larger gang, and either move up their organization or decide you can do better on your own and break off. I'm still ruminating on how to start and what mischief I can get you into. As CR 2 people (or 3 with your stats), you're pretty tough young hotspurs. I want a scenario that we all like. The picture of the Duelist on p. 383 is the very image of what a happenin' young hotspur is like, IMO, right down to the arched eyebrow. She needs a prestidigitation on her cloak, though.

Do you know each other? I dunno, yet. We should all discuss it later on.

That's why I want to wait until Jan. We'll settle on players in a few days, then start a discussion thread and get more specific about what we'd like to see and do. Take every gangster movie, show, documentary, etc. that you've ever seen and stir it all up in the medieval fantasy city of Absalom. My challenge is to make it as fun as it sounds.

The fun of this game is that there's always somebody tougher than you!

Ok on that note gm I had a question as I just got done watching The Lincoln Lawyer,

if we were to break off or just be starting our own gang, would we as we gain more power or influence gain I suppose npcs or other members that we dont control per say but they owe us tithe or what not, I know we dont get leadership as a feat but would it operate sorta like that only we dont have any say what they do but I would assume if we want to control a neighborhood we would need more than 4-5 people?

Ok on that note gm I had a question as I just got done watching The Lincoln Lawyer,

if we were to break off or just be starting our own gang, would we as we gain more power or influence gain I suppose npcs or other members that we dont control per say but they owe us tithe or what not, I know we dont get leadership as a feat but would it operate sorta like that only we dont have any say what they do but I would assume if we want to control a neighborhood we would need more than 4-5 people?

One more reason why a level in rogue is good for this. And yes, you'll need some suitably cowed people if you want to show the 'hood who's in charge. There will be ways to do that. Social skills are Cha based, and class skills for all of you.

Why do I keep thinking of Joe Pesci?

So Rogue 1/Inquisitor 2 would have what for a BaB?

Going Human, as I want the increase to Wis and Archetypes are Spy and Infiltrator. Not sure if I'll take a domain or inquisition.

Edit: Would it be ok if I took the Night Subdomain? Its absolutely perfect for this game.

So Rogue 1/Inquisitor 2 would have what for a BaB?

Going Human, as I want the increase to Wis and Archetypes are Spy and Infiltrator. Not sure if I'll take a domain or inquisition.

Edit: Would it be ok if I took the Night Subdomain? Its absolutely perfect for this game.

That's fine. Night fits great. Zon-Kuthon is your god, and you can use a spiked chain. I like it a lot!

Why do I keep thinking of Joe Pesci?

Actually, I wasn't sure if I was going to actually worship a deity or just the concepts of Darkness and the Night.

Problem with Zon, is he's more about pain then darkness/shadows, which kinda annoys me actually.

Also, you didn't answer my BaB question.

Finally, are you ok with having a few fake aliases? I'm thinking that would be fun, nothing too detailed or crazy however.

PS,
Here's the profile so far.

Actually, I wasn't sure if I was going to actually worship a deity or just the concepts of Darkness and the Night.

Problem with Zon, is he's more about pain then darkness/shadows, which kinda annoys me actually.

Also, you didn't answer my BaB question.

Finally, are you ok with having a few fake aliases? I'm thinking that would be fun, nothing too detailed or crazy however.

PS,
Here's the profile so far.

I'm cool with the idea that he's not sure where he gets his power. It would be ZK, ultimately, but I don't think ZK cares what he knows. That, and alignment, aren't really important to the campaign. BAB would be 2.25 (2), or the same as a rogue or inquisitor at 3rd. It would be the same progression all the way:.75/level.

I'm all for aliases. Gangsters use nicknames. You should all have some. How about "Shadow," or something like that?

Yea, Shadow or something similar could work for a nickname. When I said aliases, though, I meant separate personas via the disguise skill.

I'm posting with extreme interest, and I'll have at least one character build up for you soon. I'll start with a manipulative Sorcerer 2 / Rogue 1 with a specialty in enchantments. Ideally, they'll be a sort of social mastermind, could work as a party face.

I'm actually really enjoying all of the roleplaying opportunities by being forced to take a level of Rogue -- so many skill points! I have a question though, would you allow a level of Ninja to replace our level of Rogue, if we desired?

He said no oriental classes

and now competition for party face begins lol

Alright, this is Juno. If you'd like more information on the actual build, Benicio, let me know, but I figured I'd do things like skills and equipment later, if she gets accepted. Just so you know, I imagine most skill points going to Stealth, Use Magic Device, and the social skills, with hopefully enough for Spellcraft to not get overlooked completely, haha. In combat, at least at lower levels, she'll try to debuff key enemies or take out waves of enemies with color spray, etc. I sense that her character would have no trouble recognizing the potential for mutual benefits by joining up with the other PC's, and would remain loyal so long as the relationship remained beneficial. I'd just like the opportunity to roleplay her as being rather ruthlessly invested in her own success.

I would like to throw my hat into the arena for the party face competition
I present to you Adin Pegason A Bard(Geisha)/Rogue(Chameleon). Alignment Neutral Evil.

Adin was born from a fateful night with a noble who from his days of youth retired from the adventuring life to take on family responsibilities such as maintain his inheritance. Well he was very much so a ladies man as it wear and bedded my mother who was a commoner and when she turned up pregnant she was swiftly carried of to her manor and quickly trained to be a courtesan so she could be watched and kept his secret as he was single and if this got out it may damage his prospects of getting a wife my mother was leaving what some would call a dream but in reality it was a nightmare her only saving grace was her daughter she had to raise and in the end it was also her undoing cause when she was told her daughter would never be free and would be forced into the same life she was her grief over came her and she killed herself. Well the young Adin grew up and was cultivated for the same purpose her mother was but she herself had her own plans and when she would go in his stead to win over other lords in his holdings to his plans Adin would be the one and she would broker deals that would get the plan passed in the exchange for aide in her plot to discredit her father and leave him with nothing and she did just that
however in an unseen turn of events her plan was unfurled and her father discredited but from that day forth though she was marked as an outlaw as a traitor to the realm the one final stroke of the nobles she worked against as the discovered her lineage and saw to it that she could not inherit but with that minor loss she still had some victory and went on the run and started her life of further manipulating nobles, Merchants lords for coin or for the shear favor of a blind eye being turned to her presence in a city or even patronage and protection against the bounty hunters and mercenaries that may be after her. Adin's value as a mistress of disguise and a spy grew with time.

For tie ins to the party could be when she is in between patrons and without protection someone from the player characters would offer her a place in this enterprise and she would negotiate her part of the shares of profits and protection from mercenaries and bounty hunters and the law in exchange for her talents and her loyalty to the organization.

Couple changes to Grigori really quick, changing up the attributes and skills a bit, re-crunch up soon, altering his fighter class to the archetype "Brawler" and replacing "Catch off Guard" with "Improved Unnarmed Strike" I hope that's all right by you DM?

I just have to add, from reading above, he doesn't really want EVIL characters. In this situation I believe that CN is the best alignment but that's just me.

For the character, Grigori is a Chelaxian born, but not loyalty bound to in any way, street rat kid when he started off. He was an orphan, rather small, and thus was picked on relentlessly changing one trait to Bullied Grigori grew up without much love, taking whatever jobs he could get but always training and making himself stronger until no one would dare bully him again. Now, as a young hulking adult, he would be content taking on the role of a bodyguard or hired muscle, but he detests the idea of beating people to a pulp for no reason. He is by no means a saint, his life has shown him the weakness of virtue and honor and he fights hard and very dirty, but due to his background, he detests having to thrash someone simply because. He'll gladly do it for the right reason, or pay, and he deeply enjoys physical brawls, training and conditioning his body to be an expert at hand-to-hand fighting.

For his appearance, Grigori is not a handsome bloke by any means, but he is also nowhere near ugly or repulsive. He knows how to assert his nature as a thug and is an expert at intimidating others. His hair is cut close to his skull, and a huge scar twists the left side of his face, hooking around his eye beneath his brow and arching down raggedly through his cheek and jaw. He also sports a thick but short beard, and speaks in a very chopped language when he does choose to speak. For clothing, he wears thick coverings year round, and paints his breastplate, gauntlets and boots black to conceal he is actually wearing armor with clothes worn over them. At first glance he would appear chunky but underneath all that cloth is hard and unrelenting muscle as well as two fists that strike with the force of hammer blows. He also takes to having a large fur hat in the winter, and also carries with him a small assortment of disguise tools as he has learned the art of disguising himself well. He even seems to take a small level of pleasure out of it, trying to come up with new and believable costumes that even a close friend, if he ever had one, would be hard to recognize. His most recent and convincing one is masquerading as an old crippled war veteran, but in times he cannot easily don such a cover, he also carries a full, face-concealing mask.

He owes loyalty to the person he likes the best and pays him the most, and in terms of starting a gang, he is as ecstatic as he ever is at the prospect, meaning he probably even smiles occasionally at the idea. He has small street cred as a fist fighter but he wants to go down in the city as the toughest brawler in the country, so he takes personal challenges very seriously, but has no time for taunts by lesser-bodied men and women about his lack of cultured intelligence unless they choose to back up their words with their fists. He also as a point of personal choice refuses to fight any kind of Monk, holding them at a sort of prestige for their mastery of the martial arts and would feel sluggish and stupid beside their agility and grace. If one challenged him, he would probably do his best to avoid getting into a brawl, but if he has no other choice he will do his best to not let the monk turn into someone like him.

Grigori's personal attitude is very direct and blunt, just like his fists or his face. He has a small level of self-contempt at least in the regard of not wanting others to become like him. He loves what he does, but does his best also to dissuade people from trying to emulate him, especially children.

That's all I got for now, looking forwards to breaking heads should I be in.

I just have to add, from reading above, he doesn't really want EVIL characters. In this situation I believe that CN is the best alignment but that's just me.

Let me clarify that a bit. You're all "evil" in the sense that you're willing to break laws and bust skulls to get what you want. Any divine characters will have a patron god, so their alignment should be compatible. For the most part, I don't really care about alignment, any more than a gangster would. Nobody's going to lose spells for acting a certain way. That's not fun.

For example, take "Sons of Anarchy." I like that show, unrealistic as it is (nobody could leave a trail of death and destruction like they do and not get caught). The main characters do very bad things, yet I always want them to "win," usually because the other gangs and even the cops are just as bad as they are. They're still likable, in a twisted way.

Gangsters aren't above murder, torture, etc., as a means to an end. It's hard to gross me out, and some grisly things are bound to happen in a setting like this. I'm just not interested in GMing for characters running in pure psycho mode. They should have some redeeming qualities, or else it gets old, fast.

Grigori's outlook is a good example of what I mean.