Does Enervation Deal twice as many negative levels on a critical hit?


Rules Questions


Does Enervation Deal twice as many negative levels on a critical hit?

Argument yes: Spells that have attack rolls can critically hit. The universal monster ability states "If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it inflicts twice the listed number of negative levels" which is really the only description we have of how negative levels work.

Argument no: Energy drain isn't being caused by a monster special ability, so without that caveat critical hits only deal extra damage, negative levels aren't damage.


I guess you need to ask yourself: Are PC's monsters? If so, then the universal monster ability would apply. If they are not, then it would not apply.


I'm pretty sure it doubles in Pathfinder, but this is a different game. At my table, my players and I agreed that since there is an attack roll, yes, Enervation deals double the level loss. My players also prefer above average and challenging encounters. If your table is a little less masochistic/bloodthirsty, maybe don't double it. As GM, I don't care either way since I lose pretty much every battle anyway. My preference is that it deals double the level loss on a crit.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Does Enervation Deal twice as many negative levels on a critical hit?
Quote:
Spells with Attack Rolls: Some spells require an attack roll to hit. For these spells, you don’t need line of sight to the target, but you still need line of effect (see page 271). These spells can score a critical hit just as a weapon can, and deal double damage on a successful critical hit. If one of these spells has a duration, it refers to the duration of the effect that the attack causes, not the length of time that the attack itself persists.

Covered in the rules.


Gilfalas wrote:


Covered in the rules.

In which direction are you arguing that it's covered?


Starfinder Superscriber

I am going with if you have to roll to hit, you get to double the damage, so double negative levels.


I guess the question is whether or not Negative Levels are "damage."

I'd say not. Damage is damage. If a weapon causes Entangle, does it double Entangle on a crit?


My rule of thumb is "if it can be doubled on a critical hit, it is". Some things can't be doubled (most conditions), although it's occasionally possible to escalate them (grappled to pinned, for example), and I might or might not allow it depending on the exact ability(s) in question.

I generally lean in favor of allowing expanded effects on anything that requires an attack roll. Sometimes you get lucky and hit hard... and sometimes you miss outright. It tends to balance out in the end. ^^


One way to adjudicate: is ability damage doubled? If it is, energy drain probably should, too.


DJEternalDarkness wrote:
I am going with if you have to roll to hit, you get to double the damage, so double negative levels.

Okay, but since this exact line of reasoning was addressed , and the bolded statement was quoted, and there's STILL a question about it...

Why on earth would you think that bolding the statement would mean that its suddenly answered in the rules to the point that you don't even need to comment on it without addressing the underlying point of contention that negative levels are not hit points?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
DJEternalDarkness wrote:
I am going with if you have to roll to hit, you get to double the damage, so double negative levels.

Okay, but since this exact line of reasoning was addressed , and the bolded statement was quoted, and there's STILL a question about it...

Why on earth would you think that bolding the statement would mean that its suddenly answered in the rules to the point that you don't even need to comment on it without addressing the underlying point of contention that negative levels are not hit points?

That assumes that "damage = hit points". Which is, again, why I ask "what happens with ability damage?"


Starfinder Superscriber

I am looking at it from the perspective of "damage". Can you knock someone out with a critical non-leathal attack? The answer is yes, you're not doing real hit point damage, you're doing subdual damage. Can you knock someone out from negative levels? Again the answer is yes. You can defeat someone with level drains, negative levels, etc, so following the subdual damage route, you can do double negative energy hits on a target.


DJEternalDarkness wrote:
I am looking at it from the perspective of "damage". Can you knock someone out with a critical non-leathal attack? The answer is yes, you're not doing real hit point damage, you're doing subdual damage. Can you knock someone out from negative levels? Again the answer is yes. You can defeat someone with level drains, negative levels, etc, so following the subdual damage route, you can do double negative energy hits on a target.

Not really a great comparison, because non-lethal damage is, by definition, "damage." It IS real hit point damage, unlike in Pathfinder. The only difference is that if you take an opponent to zero with non-lethal damage, they gain the "Unconscious" condition instead of the "Dying" condition.

I could knock someone out with a sleep spell. Is that "damage?" I don't think "can I take someone out of combat with this?" is a good indicator of what "damage" means.


Starfinder Superscriber

Well since they also don't define what a negative level (at least in the starjammer srd) the point is kind of moot. I would still go with Pathfinder's interpretation that you can crit with spells that require an attack roll. After all (at least in Pathfinder) if you have more negative levels than levels you gain the dying condition.


They do define both negative levels and ability damage: here, on Starjammer, also on page 252 of the core rulebook.

It doesn't seem to me that the text there conclusively answers the question either way, though.


Starfinder Superscriber
Elinnea wrote:

They do define both negative levels and ability damage: here, on Starjammer, also on page 252 of the core rulebook.

It doesn't seem to me that the text there conclusively answers the question either way, though.

Man totally could NOT find that.

So to further back up double damage:

"In addition, you reduce your current and total Hit Points and Stamina Points by 5 for each negative level you have." So you're getting damage here, so there you go.


DJEternalDarkness wrote:
Elinnea wrote:

They do define both negative levels and ability damage: here, on Starjammer, also on page 252 of the core rulebook.

It doesn't seem to me that the text there conclusively answers the question either way, though.

Man totally could NOT find that.

So to further back up double damage:

"In addition, you reduce your current and total Hit Points and Stamina Points by 5 for each negative level you have." So you're getting damage here, so there you go.

Reducing hit points isn't the same as damage. Both negative levels and damage reduce your hit points, but they aren't the same thing. Otherwise it would say, "In addition, take 5 damage and reduce your total hit points by 5 for each negative level you have."


Well, critical hits specify that you roll your damage twice. You aren't rolling anything for enervation, so I'd say no, Enervation doesn't do double negative levels.

Progressing from that, unless someone finds the SF rule that says negative levels/ability drain/ability damage do get doubled, I'd say that any spell or ability that inflicts anything without an effect roll (I don't want to say damage roll) doesn't double.

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