Eldricht Poisoner: is it any good?


Advice


As the title say, is it viable in a mildly optimized party?


I don't see why not. Offers the same damage spike output of a rogue with the bombs of an Alchemist, so it's as decent as either of those classes individually I would imagine. And plenty of people play Rogues and Alchemists in mildly optimized parties.


TLDR version: yup. You'll be perfectly fine in a mildly optimized play party. There will be a lot of issues with action economy and timing that makes it wonky to insert.. but you'll be fine. It'll be hard before level 6.. and really you're first several discoveries (and probably feats) are auto choices for sake of playability.
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Honestly it is reallllyyy hard to swing in actual game play.
The biggest issue is... action economy, and how quickly it becomes inert.

Standard to make. move to apply. lastsa for 1 min.

It isn't even 1 min per level. Its a flat 1 min. forever and ever and ever. Meaning you really do have to use it in battle.

Then in general the standard action is problematic. Say you try to make a contact Toxin (su). Lasts 1 min.. and must be thrown as a range attack.
So one standard action to make said poison, then some action to throw it--you don't get a free throw with making it. Can smear it as a trap as wel.. but lasts 1 min so really not many opporunities. There are multiple instances of problems incurred because of the action economy.

With "Envenom" you can create and apply it as a move action--but note.. its one action so it can not be used with the above contact. Just to weaponry. Still it makes it much more usable at least. Its a discovery tax like Infusions though.

All that said above.. If you sink lots discovery and a feat (or more) into the poison buffing discoveries this can be quite a powerful too. Celestial Poisons, and Sticky Poisons are basically absolute musts for this character. So you won't have to reapply that often, and so your poison effects so many things more. Malignant poison maybe.. but it takes a full round action.... Good for an ambush opener though!
or instance... zombies. Though I honestly have no clue how Celestial poison's bypass would interact with the stat damage. It should bypass anything but SU abilities or spells I guess?

Really if there was some discovery that would allow creation, and application to be a swift action. OR. something that would make it min/per level. or 1 hr. Then this archetype would work pretty well.

Paralystic or sickening toxin is also very good IMO.

Honestly I would leave any of the alteration abilities (toxic fumes, tailored toxin, contact, or normal changing discovery) behind.. it simply can not last nearly long enough for any real preperation.

This would absolutely positively be good with a Syringe Spear--or Injection spear preferably if your group allows that one. It is a shame you lose out INT to damage on Splash weapons though. Points if they allow you to use a few feat choices for dex to hit with it. But its still a bit extra DC to it (unless you dip into that Rogue archetype or Investigator that gets it-Which is actually mildly tempting because of various effects). It works great with the level 2 extract that makes that poison int damaging water.
Alternative would be a eleven curve blade. or branch spear.

You can also sky rocket the DC with a few specific choices and some weird heritage as a human.

You will absolutely always be discovery and feat starving in this build though. Or, you're poison won't be as effective. It is pretty solidly all or nothing kind of thing.

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Speaking of extracts.. honestly for this class they feel out of place. I sort of wish it gave you several specific poison related ones. Like "create X cost poison in this extract" or something.
Or if there were archetypes you could switch out some or all of extracts for some other thing.
'cause it'll be hard to fit Infusion into this really.
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My personal opinion is that it isn't strong enough in various ways compared to Toxicant-which only costs the Mutagen's abilties. (though maybe this is PFS legal ? i know toxi isn't)
Toxciant can't do ability damage... but it is just loaded with stats and HP damage.

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Darn I forgot what else I was going to write because I paused halfway through this.


Another problem is that mundane discoveries for mundane poison doesn't work with the arcanotoxin, it is clearly stated in the Arcanotoxin section.

So sticky poison, celestial poison and the like won't work.

I think it can work better as a Toxicant-Vivisectionist, way less action economy problems and all the poison discoveries work with the toxicant poison


Oh! I totally missed that line.

Then yeah..

This archetype is incredibly unwieldy to use then.....

Toxicant is pretty amazing in general for poison use.
you can replicate teh sneak attack damage bonus as well via the feat that does something similar.
Though it doesn't work on m yToxicant because his DC is already naturally higher than the limit on that feat.. due to human heritage shenanagans and such.

also. I think it was an oversight.. but Toxicant doesn't havea time limit on existance last I knew. I think it was meant to be 24 hour reset like normal weaponry items.
but.. not listed as such...

So techicnally every night you could spend an horu converting all your extras to inhaled and make "super doses"
just bear in mind a DM might do it back. and Toxicant poison effects can be incredibly great debuffs.


The one thing I like about this archetype is that while discoveries don't work on the toxin, everything else does. Feats, other class abilities... Just discoveries are left out.

So basically I looked into this and a rogue cross over.

Alch/rog/alch/rog/rogue and then alch the rest of the way.

Grab Dex to damage, free weapon finesse, and rogue abilities like doing 2 hits on poisons rather than one (not anywhere as good as int mod but... doubling your toxin)

Then... be a ratfolk! They have a LOT of great poison options.

By level 7 I wager hitting dc 27 on your toxin should be very easy. Making them very deadly.


How are you getting DC 27 on your toxin?
10+1/2alch +int. and Assuming you get to level 4 sneak attack switch bonus DC.. at level 7 taht is still only 3D6 maybe 4d6. so +4

so assuming 4 Alch then rogue the DC with the sneak attack would be 10+2+INT (give it a 5 I guess) 17+4 for the sneak switch 21. Pretty decent when you are flanking/sneak attacking.

So what aspects or archetypes of rogue are you using from this? or is it a ratfolk thing?
Which talents are you going for? The double usage is nice.. but I'm honestly not sure if it would be worth it in comparison to few other things.
Signiture Poison would be pretty great
Benefit(s): A rogue with this talent chooses one poison (such as bloodroot or oil of taggit) as her signature poison. When she uses the chosen poison, the poison’s saving throw DC increases by +2. A rogue can take this talent multiple times, each time applying it to a new poison.
That one would be plenty good to dip. I would dip underground chemist..
That would combo well with injection spear. occasionally use alch fire injected for Int damage~

I know if you're nagaji; or a human with that ancestry race feat thingy to take their alchemist favored class bonus you could add a nice chunk more though.

Counting the sneak attack's quicker progression on rogue levels (though there was some FAQ weirdness about the progression factoring; but i'll assume in rogue levels you follow the Sneak Attack on their not the alch progression) then with the sneak attack buff you aren't losing much DC dipping for a short time period for some choice rogue talents. Though I would also have to consider specific Prestige classes as well for things.

Hmm Yup. I would totally take 2 levels of underground chem and make my second level talent signiture poison with my class specific toxin.

That combined with a good racial bonus.. yeah you can get that DC pretty decent.

Dark Archive

Racial heritage nagaji should give you a FCB For Poison dc.There is also Poison focus feat.Only reason people go for Eldritch poisoner is for sense vitals + accomplished sneaker attacker into Eldritch sneak attack dice to poisons with mundane poisons.Arcotoxin is just fluff.


Well let's see.

As I said, I like rat folk. So toxic weapon.

But aside from that, cognition,half alch level, headband of +2, poison focus, +2 from dagger, int 20 and maybe 2 sneak attack dice. Throw in signature poison? That's up to the GM.

But 10+ 6 int + 2 Half HD+ 2 sneak + 1 feat + 2 toxic, +2 cog +2 signature poison... Maybe if you can afford a snakebite dagger for another 2?

That's... 29. Not shabby. Plus you can hit with it and have it last 2x...each hit giving a chance at one time doesn't use it up free third hit.

Expensive though, adding all that into one weapon. But then again, you just gotta hit the guy.

Or... because you're ratfolk. Virulent.

Add The enhancement of weapon to dc AND to duration.

This means of course you're all about that weapon. But.. yeah. Could add all the way up another +5 by end, and have massive duration times. Saves having to do that as arcano discovery.


Should point out that 29 only added 2 of the 4d6 sneak attack at 7th. So really 31? But at that point it a best to keep some damage.


For my games 29 DC at level 7 is totally broken and my GM would ban me/kill me right away XD

Nonetheless, a lot of great tips/inspiration in this topic, thank you


Well to be fair it's also using pretty much all the money you'd have into a single weapon.
But was asked to show how you could hit 27, so I did.

I really like the archetype just wanted to show that.
Here's some rough notes I had.

I really do like ratfolk with this. Get a buddy to play one and always have a sneak attack partner.

Spoiler:

1 al 1: Alchemy, brew potion.  Feat: poison focus 1d6 sneak
2 ro 1:  Weapon finesse. 2d6 sneak
3 al 2: weapon focus feat.  Discovery: envenom move action. 
4 ro 2:  talent: poison x2 evasion
5 ro 3: add dex damage 3d6 sneak feat feat: master alchemist
6 al 3: 1d3 poison
7 al 4: 4d6.  Feat: precise strike NO DISCOVERY


Let's say that you can upgrade 6-8 times the arcanotoxin, which one would you guys pick?


Damage as often as possible. Then charisma. Then amount of saves. I'd get virulent to add duration for me.


There is also the Guild Poisoner PRC which has some fun tricks.
probably not worth the dip

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