Had a situation come up in our game tonight, and I was wondering if it was handled correctly or not.
The initiative order was something like this.
18 - Party Member A
16 - Bad Guy
13 - Me
10 - Party Member B
Round 1:
PMA had the bad guy trapped in a room, and was in the process of barricading the entrance.
Bad guy banged on the barricade trying to get out.
I readied an action on my turn to shoot any hostiles coming past the barricade.
PMB readies the same action.
Round 2:
PMA continues holding the barricade, as much with his body as with supplies on hand.
Bad guy breaks past PMA and enters our line of fire.
My readied action goes off and I shoot the bad guy.
PMB's readied action goes off and he shoots the bad guy.
I then take my full turn, since it's my initiative count (even modified, not much changed position wise).
PMB takes his full turn.
Bad guy dies.
End encounter.
Did we do this right? There was some discussion about whether or not we should have gotten those full rounds after the fact.
As I understand it, your readied action shifted your initiative and thus your turns to when the standard action triggered, "spending" your turn prematurely in trade for the later normal initiative.
If I understand it right, the initiative order on round 2 became
18 - Party Member A
16 - Bad Guy spent part or all of his turn busting into line of sight
16.1 - Both you and Party Member B get their readied standard action to light the Bad Guy up. Your initiatives are now set to just before that of the Bad Guy.
16.2 - Bad Guy's remaining actions, if any, this turn.
Then you would have entered Round 3:
18 - Player A
16.1 - You and Player B (which results in the same messy demise, but gets the adjustments to initiative correct if I have it right)
16.2 - Bad Guy, who gets ventilated before his turn anyway, in this case.
Don't you go after the trigger when taking hostile actions?
Readying an action shouldn't have given you an extra action - it just changes initiative order to go right after the trigger. The attacks you and PMB made should've been it, and then it was Bad Guy's opportunity to make his standard and/or swift, then PMA turn again, in the next round.
The only advantage in readying in this scenario is that you'd have shot him before he shot you, since the trigger was his movement. The initiative order wouldn't have changed in this fight, since you were after him already.
You can prepare to take an action when a certain trigger occurs
by using a standard action. Decide on a standard, move, or swift
action and a trigger. You can take the action you chose when the
trigger happens. This changes your initiative count to the current
initiative count for the remainder of the combat. If you used a
reaction on your previous turn and then chose to ready an action,
you still regain your reaction at the beginning of your original
turn, not when you take your readied action.
.
If your readied action is purely defensive, such as choosing
the total defense action if a foe you are facing shoots at you,
it occurs just before the event that triggered it. If the readied
action is not a purely defensive action, such as shooting a foe if
he shoots at you, it takes place immediately after the triggering
event. If you come to your next turn and have not yet performed
your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action
(though you can ready the same action again).
Ah, so I was close.
With readied actions included, Round 2:
18 - Player A
16.1 - Bad Guy boots open the door
16.2 - Readied actions to shoot trigger
16.3 - Bad guy does [whatever else]
Round 3
18 - Player A
16.1 - Bad Guy
16.2 - You and Player B, whomever breaks the initiative tie going first
Wouldn't not taking those extra actions effectively mean I skip two turns though? Who would ever want to ready an action if that were the case?
The thing is, my turn circled around again. The fact that my action triggered just before it came around seems inconsequential to me.
What am I missing?
Wouldn't not taking those extra actions effectively mean I skip two turns though? Who would ever want to ready an action if that were the case?
The thing is, my turn circled around again. The fact that my action triggered just before it came around seems inconsequential to me.
What am I missing?
You get to shoot and potentially kill him before he can attack, since you ready off movement. If you don’t care about that, just sit back and full attack after he takes all of his actions.
Readying trades action efficiency for critical timing. If you’re remotely triggering an explosive, for example, you’d want to ready against someone entering the blast zone and sacrifice your regular actions until it happens rather than hope an enemy ends their turn in the right spot.
Your turn is not lost - you retain the option on your regular initiative to retain the readied action or do something else as I read it.
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Wouldn't not taking those extra actions effectively mean I skip two turns though? Who would ever want to ready an action if that were the case?
The thing is, my turn circled around again. The fact that my action triggered just before it came around seems inconsequential to me.
What am I missing?
You didn't skip a turn. You choose to wait until just the moment to take it. Just turns out the right moment was the same time as your next normal turn.
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Initiative is further complicated by the wording found in Ready and Delay:
This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
It doesn’t say you now go before Person X or after Person X, it says you go on Count Y. So what do we do with characters that have the same initiative count?
If two or more combatants have the same initiative count, the order in which they act is determined by their total initiative modifiers (the character with the highest modifier acts first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should each roll a d20, and whoever rolls highest goes first.
So Ravingdork, your readied action takes you to Count 16. On the following round, the order is determined by initiative modifiers. Having a higher mod will cause you to act just before Bad Guy for the rest of combat.
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Once determined, the initiative order is no longer modified as outlined on page 238, which is were your quote is from.
Delay is always after the character/NPC initiative count because the delayed action is a reaction.
Ready depends on if the action that was readied is offensive or defensive as The Ragi pointed out.
And to answer the original question, not I don't think you did it correct by allowing the players to act twice because their initiative order had moved.
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Once determined, the initiative order is no longer modified as outlined on page 238, which is were your quote is from.
No, it’s definitely modified by delay and ready.
A character rolls to determine her initiative count only once in each combat. Even if a character can’t take actions—for example, if she’s is under the effect of a hold person spell or is otherwise paralyzed—the character retains her initiative count for the duration of the encounter. The exception is when a character takes an action that results in her initiative changing (see the Ready an Action and Delay on page 249).
This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative count, the order in which they act is determined by their total initiative modifiers (the character with the highest modifier acts first).
So we are left with a different initiative system than PF. Ready and Delay change your count and higher modifier will act first on the next round.
I could Delay after an enemy to get better positioning/attack and then act before them on the next round with a high mod (yay!). I could ready a defensive action and then act after an enemy the following round with a low mod (boo!). The initiative modifier is now valuable during the entire combat, not just the first roll.
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Ok not going to play the quote game as it will get crazy.
I said "Once determined, the initiative order is no longer modified as outlined on page 238". After the initial initiative order is set on page 238 it is set until change by actions of characters/NPCs. The initiative modifier no longer comes into play. The modifier is only used to determine the initial order.
I agree that Delay and Ready will change the order.
Both Delay and Ready can change the initiative count of the character/NPC. Because it moves it to same count, what do we do? You would suggest that you look at the modifier to determine the order but this is not how it works.
Delay
The initiative count for the character/NPC would come AFTER the character/NPC comes out of Delay. You need to look at the sentence before the one you are quoting.
After any creature takes its turn in the initiative order, you can come out of delay and take your turn. This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
(Emphasis mine)
Delay Example:
Little Joe (with a modifier of 6) delays his action. It is now Big Boss' (with a modifier of 3) turn and he shots May Bell with his laser pistol and deals enough damage to drop her to 1 HP. Little Joe then comes out of delay and casts a heal on May Bell.
Next turn, the order would be Big Boss and then Little Joe. It would not be Little Joe and then Big Boss. Little Joe delayed his action to go after Big Boss.
Ready
As stated previously by The Ragi, where a character/NPC moves in the initiative count depends on the type of Ready Action taken.
Defense Ready Example:
May Bell (with a modifier of 1) moves to stand behind a crate and readies an action to duck if a bad guy shots at her. Little Joe (with a modifier of 6) moves behind a different crate and casts Magic Missile on Big Boss. Big Boss (with a modifier of 3) sees May Bell and points his laser pistol at her to shoot. She sees this, so May Bell's readied action goes off and she ducks behind the crate for cover. Big Boss then completes his action and shots at her, hitting the crate and not May Bell.
Next turn, the order would be Little Joe, May Bell, and Big Boss. Why is May Bell not after Big Boss? Because her readied action was defensive and thus acted before Big Boss.
Offensive Ready Action:
Mook #1 (with modifier of 10) saw Little Joe (with a modifier of 6) cast a spell last turn so this time he readies an action to shoot Little Joe if he casts another spell. Little Joe does cast another Magic Missile at Big Boss. Because this is an offensive readied action, after Little Joe has finish casting his spell, Mook #1 readied action goes off and he shoots Little Joe in the back, dropping him 0 HP.
Next turn, the order would be Little Joe and Mook #1. Why? Because Mook #1 acted after Little Joe cast his spell.
So we are left with a different initiative system than PF. Ready and Delay change your count and higher modifier will act first on the next round.
I could Delay after an enemy to get better positioning/attack and then act before them on the next round with a high mod (yay!). I could ready a defensive action and then act after an enemy the following round with a low mod (boo!). The initiative modifier is now valuable during the entire combat, not just the first roll.
No we don't have a different system from PF.
No initiative modifier is only used to determine the initial order.
Hopefully this clarifies the process.
Once determined, the initiative order is no longer modified as outlined on page 238, which is were your quote is from.
Why is initiative order no longer modified as outlined on page 238?
Can you point me to some rules text that suggests that, as I've been looking for one. I've had a similar question before, as the text between PFS and SFS changed on ready actions. For reference, my earlier question thread compared the PFS and SFS wordings.
The sentence immediately after "take your turn" that you emphasize then goes on to refer to initiative counts, not initiative order.
From page 238:
Initiative order is defined in section 2 of How Combat Works:
"In combat, characters will act in order of their initiative check results-also known as their initiative counts-from highest to lowest. This order is called the initiative order".
Emphasis mine. Initiative order is explicitly called out as following initiative counts from highest to lowest, and then elsewhere on page 238 clarified that ties are settled by initiative modifier, and then random roll if still tied.
The ready and delay actions never use the term initiative order directly in how your initiative changes. They only refer to changing initiative counts. Delay does reference initiative order on when you can activate that particular delayed action, but then changes the wording to initiative counts for future turns. I would agree with your declaration if those two actions said you change the initiative order, but I can only assume they intentionally used the term initiative count for a reason.
If I consider initiative order independent of initiative count (aka the initiative check results) after the initial order is determined, the ready and delay actions changing initiative count (aka the initiative check result) is a meaningless statement. The only way it makes sense to me is if initiative count is used every turn to determine order.
In my original example, there are two rounds represented. If I'm not getting two turns worth of actions in two rounds, then how have I not skipped a turn? Surely readied actions are not meant to waste a round when they work.
In my original example, there are two rounds represented. If I'm not getting two turns worth of actions in two rounds, then how have I not skipped a turn? Surely readied actions are not meant to waste a round when they work.
You have skipped a turn, and they are intended to work that way. The price you pay of choosing when your action goes off is that you forgo all actions until that moment arrives. If you train a gun on a door to shoot someone who comes out, you only get the action to shoot when someone comes out, whether that's in 6 seconds or 6 minutes. You don't get back the time you waited, and you don't double up when the action triggers.
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In my original example, there are two rounds represented. If I'm not getting two turns worth of actions in two rounds, then how have I not skipped a turn? Surely readied actions are not meant to waste a round when they work.
Well, they can end up "wasting" a round. That's part of the design. Because readying represents waiting. Sometimes you may have to wait so long that you have effectively given up a turn.
In my original example, there are two rounds represented. If I'm not getting two turns worth of actions in two rounds, then how have I not skipped a turn? Surely readied actions are not meant to waste a round when they work.
As far as I can tell, you're simply allowed to act once per round. Otherwise by your ruling, I could get as many action as there are other characters in the fight in a single round.
Take your example. Add another enemy at initiative 5 and another at initiative 1.
What prevents you from readying an action to shoot when the next enemy moves into the room on initiative count 16 of round 2? Enemy moves in on initiative count 5, you shoot. Now its your turn again. Ready another action to shoot when the last enemy enters. Enemy acts on initiative count 1, your readied action goes off, and now its your turn again.
So you've got to be limited to one "turn" per round and in fact lose your action from round 2 when your readied one goes off in round 2.
Or at least thats the best interpretation I've got. This is why I also asked for clarification as a FAQ in this thread.
I think you misunderstood me. I was not advocating for infinite actions or anything else of the sort.
I also don't believe that readying an action locks you in place for more than a round. As far as I understand the rules, you can ready an action until (1) the trigger occurs, or (2) your turn circles around, at which point you can keep readying the same or different action/trigger, or do something else entirely.
I suspect my initial example is somewhat confusing since both my normal initiative and my new post-readied-action initiative sort of fall into the same place (if not in count, then in that it occurs between the same characters).
Perhaps things would be more clear with a different example?
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Why is initiative order no longer modified as outlined on page 238?
I see I have been using initiative order and initiative count interchangeably but they are not.
The GM determines a combat’s initiative order by organizing the characters’ initiative counts in descending order. During combat, characters act in initiative order, from highest initiative count to lowest initiative count; their relative order typically remains the same throughout the combat.
The initiative order can change from round to round depending on what actions are taken. But my examples about what happens to the initiative order with Delay and Ready Actions is still valid.
If I consider initiative order independent of initiative count (aka the initiative check results) after the initial order is determined, the ready and delay actions changing initiative count (aka the initiative check result) is a meaningless statement. The only way it makes sense to me is if initiative count is used every turn to determine order.
Yes, I believe that initiative order is independent of initiative count. Later on in the Initiative section:
A character rolls to determine her initiative count only once in each combat. Even if a character can’t take actions—for example, if she’s is under the effect of a hold person spell or is otherwise paralyzed—the character retains her initiative count for the duration of the encounter. The exception is when a character takes an action that results in her initiative changing (see the Ready an Action and Delay on page 249). Emphasis mine.
Once the initiative count is determined it is set unless an action is taken that changed it such as Ready or Delay. At this point, the rules for Ready and Delay determine what happens with the count, and thus the order for the next round of combat.
But to be clear for myself, I was using Order and Count interchangeably and they are clearly not interchangeable.
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You roll the initiative count only once. That’s the only time you *roll* for your count. Then you remain at the same count unless you Ready/Delay.
What’s missing is any indication that you determine initiative count ties in any way other than compared modifiers, regardless of if it’s the beginning or middle of combat. Since the count changes, and we are given a way to deal with characters that have the same count, we use those rules.
Those rules are different than the initiative order rules in PF.
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I think you misunderstood me. I was not advocating for infinite actions or anything else of the sort.
I also don't believe that readying an action locks you in place for more than a round. As far as I understand the rules, you can ready an action until (1) the trigger occurs, or (2) your turn circles around, at which point you can keep readying the same or different action/trigger, or do something else entirely.
I suspect my initial example is somewhat confusing since both my normal initiative and my new post-readied-action initiative sort of fall into the same place (if not in count, then in that it occurs between the same characters).
Perhaps things would be more clear with a different example?
Its quite possible I misunderstood. In your initial example, your ready action doesn't lock you in for more than 1 round. A full round for your character would be from initiative count 13 on Round 1 to initiative count 13 round 2. However instead, by readying, you act on Initiative count 16 of Round 2. Thats certainly less than a full round.
At that point, having taking your ready action, you need to wait a full round again before acting, which would be from initiative count 16 of Round 2 (when your ready action went off and what your initiative count changed to) to initiative Count 16 of Round 3. Readying inherently pushes you later in action, even if that later is "earlier in the next round" rather than "later in the current round".
I suspect if your example had the enemy moving on initiative 1 in Round 1 it'd be clearer. You would act on initiative 1 by shooting with your readied action. Then you'd have to wait a full round, until initiative 1 on Round 2, before you could act again.
The initiative order can change from round to round depending on what actions are taken. But my examples about what happens to the initiative order with Delay and Ready Actions is still valid.
I guess my problem is Delay and Ready actions change initiative count directly for following turns, but initiative order only indirectly for following turns.
Delay Example:
Little Joe (with a modifier of 6) delays his action. It is now Big Boss' (with a modifier of 3) turn and he shots May Bell with his laser pistol and deals enough damage to drop her to 1 HP. Little Joe then comes out of delay and casts a heal on May Bell.Next turn, the order would be Big Boss and then Little Joe. It would not be Little Joe and then Big Boss. Little Joe delayed his action to go after Big Boss.
If the GM says your example is how it works, I'd agree and go along with it. Its a valid interpretation of the text. I'd just love to have the text cleaned up so there are fewer interpretations.
After any creature takes its turn in the initiative order, you can come out of delay and take your turn. This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
Right now, as defined, multiple creatures can have the same initiative count. There is no 10.1, 10.2 or 10.3 initiative count, there's just 10. If two creatures have the same count, then you go to initiative modifier or random roll to resolve the tie.
The delay rule doesn't change how ties are resolved. It simply changes your initiative to the current count.
I can't fault someone if they interpret initiative count literally as a single number. They cross out their original initiative roll and replace it with the current count, say 10. Then when the GM comes around next turn and says, "Who acts on count 10?", Little Joe and Big Boss both raise their hand. At which point the GM has to resolve this tie and goes to page 238.
In order to have your example work out, term "initiative count" can't be a simple number. It must also have some kind of concept of additional ordering built in, beyond the initiative modifier and random roll. So that Little Joe's 10 is after Big Boss's 10.
I feel this concept is not clear in the text and requires some inference. It might be the developer's intended inference, but I'd be hard pressed to present convincing evidence.
It also becomes even more confusing when another party, say Bob, comes into combat when its already been going on for a few rounds with an initiative modifier of +4 and rolls a 6, for a total of 10. Does Bob go before Big Boss and after Little Joe? What if both Big Boss and Little Joe have taken initiative modifying actions before Bob has come into play.
Do their initiative modifiers mean anything at that point? Do we interpret Little Joe as having an initiative modifier of +3 for purposes of new characters coming into the fight? No where is that suggested in the text but I think has to be assumed to make your example work.
A single example case from a developer would be great, as it would clear up a lot my personal confusion on this.
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After any creature takes its turn in the initiative order, you can come out of delay and take your turn. This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.
This clearly indicates that for the creature who delayed, their initiative count is moved to AFTER the creature who's turn just ended.
If your readied action is purely defensive, such as choosing the total defense action if a foe you are facing shoots at you, it occurs just before the event that triggered it.
This clearly indicates that if a Ready action is defensive, the character/NPC acts BEFORE the triggering event, thus moving the initiative count and being placed BEFORE the foe in the initiative order.
If the readied action is not a purely defensive action, such as shooting a foe if he shoots at you, it takes place immediately after the triggering event.
This clearly indicates that if a Ready action is offensive, the character/NPC acts AFTER the triggering event, thus moving the initiative count to being placed AFTER the foe in the initiative order.
I see the indications you are looking for right there in the rules.
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Right now, as defined, multiple creatures can have the same initiative count. There is no 10.1, 10.2 or 10.3 initiative count, there's just 10. If two creatures have the same count, then you go to initiative modifier or random roll to resolve the tie.
I agree, there is no 10.1, 10.2, etc on initiative count. But there is an initiative order that is maintained that tracks when actions happen. After the initial order is established, actions that are taken during the rounds can cause movement in the order. And the rules are clear about how to handle that movement.
The delay rule doesn't change how ties are resolved. It simply changes your initiative to the current count.
It does not need to clarify what happens with ties. The action happens AFTER someone has completed their turn. The two characters/NPCs have the same initiative count, but their turn in the initiative order is shifted.
I can't fault someone if they interpret initiative count literally as a single number. They cross out their original initiative roll and replace it with the current count, say 10. Then when the GM comes around next turn and says, "Who acts on count 10?", Little Joe and Big Boss both raise their hand. At which point the GM has to resolve this tie and goes to page 238.
This is not how it works. You are forgetting the initiative order. The GM determines the initiative order as outlined on page 238 at the beginning of combat. After that initial order is determined, the GM maintains the initiative order based upon the actions of the combatants. In earlier postings on this thread I was using initiative order and initiative count interchangeably. I was wrong and I believe it caused confusion.
In order to have your example work out, term "initiative count" can't be a simple number. It must also have some kind of concept of additional ordering built in, beyond the initiative modifier and random roll. So that Little Joe's 10 is after Big Boss's 10.
After combat begins, initiative count is a simple number. The GM has the initiative order, where ties have already been resolved, and will call on who gets to go next.
I feel this concept is not clear in the text and requires some inference. It might be the developer's intended inference, but I'd be hard pressed to present convincing evidence.
I agree. I plan to start a thread to get a FAQ on this so please look for it and click the button!
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I have created a new thread requesting a FAQ on this question.
It is found here.
Please go there and click the FAQ button so we can get clarity on this question.
Thank you!
So it looks like our group did it wrong then.
Thanks for the help everyone.
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After any creature takes its turn in the initiative order, you can come out of delay and take your turn. This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.This clearly indicates that for the creature who delayed, their initiative count is moved to AFTER the creature who's turn just ended.
No, it clearly indicates it “changes your initiative count to the current initiative count.” It literally says just that!
If your readied action is purely defensive, such as choosing the total defense action if a foe you are facing shoots at you, it occurs just before the event that triggered it.This clearly indicates that if a Ready action is defensive, the character/NPC acts BEFORE the triggering event, thus moving the initiative count and being placed BEFORE the foe in the initiative order.
If the readied action is not a purely defensive action, such as shooting a foe if he shoots at you, it takes place immediately after the triggering event.This clearly indicates that if a Ready action is offensive, the character/NPC acts AFTER the triggering event, thus moving the initiative count to being placed AFTER the foe in the initiative order.
Again, both Ready and Delay have a very specific sentence they both use word for word.
“This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.”
It doesn’t say “initiative order” but rather very specifically “initiative count.” The rules are explicit on how initiative counts work and how to determine ties with initiative counts. The rules you quoted so provide the timing of when the readied action occurs, but that can’t be confounded with how the following round’s iniative order is calculated using tied initiative counts.
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It doesn’t say “initiative order” but rather very specifically “initiative count.” The rules are explicit on how initiative counts work and how to determine ties with initiative counts. The rules you quoted so provide the timing of when the readied action occurs, but that can’t be confounded with how the following round’s iniative order is calculated using tied initiative counts.
The rules are clear on how the initiative order is determined at the beginning of combat. After the initial initiative order is determined, it is the ACTIONS that changes the order.
It simply does not make sense that a creature who acts after another can maintain a position in the initiative order just because the creature has a higher initiative bonus.
Do you want to see a bunch of high initiative characters running around so they can ALWAYS be acting before another (mostly NPCs) after the initial initiative order is determined?
It will unbalance the combat in favor of high initiatives. I don't believe the intent of the designers was for this to happen.
Thus the need for FAQ because yet another part of the rules are not clear and open to interruption.
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It doesn’t say “initiative order” but rather very specifically “initiative count.” The rules are explicit on how initiative counts work and how to determine ties with initiative counts. The rules you quoted so provide the timing of when the readied action occurs, but that can’t be confounded with how the following round’s iniative order is calculated using tied initiative counts.The rules are clear on how the initiative order is determined at the beginning of combat. After the initial initiative order is determined, it is the ACTIONS that changes the order.
It simply does not make sense that a creature who acts after another can maintain a position in the initiative order just because the creature has a higher initiative bonus.
Do you want to see a bunch of high initiative characters running around so they can ALWAYS be acting before another (mostly NPCs) after the initial initiative order is determined?
It will unbalance the combat in favor of high initiatives. I don't believe the intent of the designers was for this to happen.
Thus the need for FAQ because yet another part of the rules are not clear and open to interruption.
It makes sense to me. It’s a different system than pathfinder. Combat won’t be unbalanced, but initiative is now a little bit more valuable.
The rules are clear on how initiative is rolled, what actions affect the initiative count, and how ties are determined. Have you tried playing it the way it is written?