Ready Action initiative count change from Pathfinder intentional?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is a FAQ request for the Ready Action and Initiative rules.

In Pathfinder, the Ready action has the following clause about where your initiative winds up after being triggered:

PRD, Combat, Special Initiative Actions wrote:
For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

This bolded part is extremely important, as if it wasn't there, the order on that initiative count would default to the normal rules, namely:

PRD, Initiative wrote:
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first).

However, in Starfinder, the bolded language in the Pathfinder rules is gone.

CRB, page 249, Readying an Action wrote:
This changes your initiative count to the current initiative count for the remainder of the combat.

Combined with the initiative order rule:

CRB, oage238, Initiative wrote:
If two or more combatants have the same initiative count, the order in which they act is determined by their total initiative modifiers (the character with the highest modifier acts first).

This leads to a non-intuitive question. Since I can't find any rule about taking only one turn in a round, what happen if you get to your turn to act twice in a round? In the pathfinder rules, your turn to act after readying is set to just before the triggering actor. Since on the current round, we are at the current actor when it triggers, you have to wait until the next round to take your turn.

However, in Starfinder, it is possible to have your turn come up in the same round as your readied action triggers, since if your initiative modifier is lower than then the triggering actor, you go after them in the round.

Was the phrase "and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action." unintentionally left out of the rules? Or is was it intended to have a rule somewhere stating you may only act once per round irregardless of initiative manipulations? I don't believe the intention was to be able to make multiple readied actions within the same round with appropriate selection of initiative modifiers (which is how RAW reads at the moment), but it definitely needs a clarification.

A related question is does the initiative order (not the initiative count) change when a target's Dexterity modifier or other initiative bonus changes? I'm guessing the intention is no, but because of wording changes this isn't explicitly spelled out.

Starfinder says:

"CRB, page 238 wrote:
During combat, characters act in initiative order, from highest initiative count to lowest initiative count; their relative order typically remains the same throughout the combat.

Is a Dexterity change due to entangling or grappling typical or not? I assume it is typical, and the initiative doesn't change as its a bunch of extra book keeping for no benefit, but the rules probably should be more explicit like the Pathfinder wording.

This question doesn't occur in Pathfinder because it explicitly calls out the exceptions that can change the order:

PRD, Initiative wrote:
In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).


As to the "two turns in one round" question, when your readied action goes off (even if it goes off pretty much immediately as the next person in the initiative order acts), it really isn't a second turn. It's just your first turn, delayed. I'm not sure what the problem is.

It seems like the main thing you're asking is what happens on future turns. Namely, if you ready an action, your opponent triggers that action, and you both survive - on the next round, now that you and your opponent have the same "initiative number" on the track, do you go before or after your opponent? Is that what you're asking?

If that's what you are asking, then by RAW, the person with the highest initiative bonus would go first on subsequent turns. So if your opponent has a higher initiative bonus than you, you may get the drop on them once with your readied action, but they will then act before you in subsequent turns.

The Exchange

Hiruma Kai wrote:
Was the phrase "and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action." unintentionally left out of the rules?

Nope. Check out the next paragraph on page 249:

Quote:
If your readied action is purely defensive, such as choosing the total defense action if a foe you are facing shoots at you, it occurs just before the event that triggered it. If the readied action is not a purely defensive action, such as shooting a foe if he shoots at you, it takes place immediately after the triggering event.

That would also determine who is first in initiative order (you or the foe) based on when the readied action occurs.

That is a change from Pathfinder.


Fuzzypaws wrote:

As to the "two turns in one round" question, when your readied action goes off (even if it goes off pretty much immediately as the next person in the initiative order acts), it really isn't a second turn. It's just your first turn, delayed. I'm not sure what the problem is.

It seems like the main thing you're asking is what happens on future turns. Namely, if you ready an action, your opponent triggers that action, and you both survive - on the next round, now that you and your opponent have the same "initiative number" on the track, do you go before or after your opponent? Is that what you're asking?

If that's what you are asking, then by RAW, the person with the highest initiative bonus would go first on subsequent turns. So if your opponent has a higher initiative bonus than you, you may get the drop on them once with your readied action, but they will then act before you in subsequent turns.

But what about on the same turn? At the moment, the rule is you go when your initiative count comes up, ordered by initiative modifier.

Take 4 characters:
Alice, initiative modifier +0
Bob, initiative modifier +1
Chuck, initiative modifier +1
NPC, initiative modifier +2

1st round, Alice rolls a 20 for initiative (total 20), Bob rolls a 11 (total 12), NPC rolls a 10 (total 12), and chuck rolls a 1 (2 total).

The initiative order becomes:

Alice
NPC
Bob
Chuck

We go through the initiative count.

Alice <-- We are here on turn 1.
NPC
Bob
Chuck

Count 20, Alice goes. Alice readies an action to attack when the NPC attacks. GM calls for next person in initiative order, so the NPC goes.

Alice (readied)
NPC <-- We are here on turn 1.
Bob
Chuck

Count 12, NPC wins tie with Bob. NPC attacks Alice. Alice's readied action triggers. Alice's initiative count becomes 12. Bob's initiative modifier is +1 and goes before Alice. GM calls for next person in initiative order and so Bob goes.

NPC
Bob <-- We are here on turn 1.
Alice
Chuck

Count 12, Bob takes his turn 1. After that, the GM calls for the next person in initiative order.

NPC
Bob
Alice <-- We are here on turn 1.
Chuck

Count 12, Alice looks up and points out it is technically her turn in initiative order on turn 1, even though she's already taken her 1st turn earlier. Does she get to act again? Say she readies an action to attack when Chuck attacks the NPC. GM calls for next person in initiative order.

NPC
Bob
Alice (readied)
Chuck <-- We are here on turn 1.

Count 2, Chuck attacks the NPC. Alice takes her readied action, and now has her initiative count change to 2. Chuck beats her in the tie, and she is put after him. GM calls for next person in initiative order after Chuck.

NPC
Bob
Chuck
Alice <-- We are here on turn 1.

Count 2, Alice turn comes up again on turn 1. She simply attacks the NPC, and the round is finally over.

I'm pretty sure this is not intended behavior. Which is why I'm asking, is it supposed to be limited to one turn per round or is your initiative order after a readied action supposed to put you before the triggering character like it does in Pathfinder?

Edit: Re-reading the entire combat section, I think you're right, and the default assumption is the one turn per round, and that you simply ignore a character if they would be called again due to initiative order. Its not explicitly stated, but probably the only reasonable interpretation if presented just the Starfinder rules (i.e. ignoring Pathfinder). Still curious if that was intended though. Its a reduction in the usefulness of readied actions or maybe a buff to initiative bonuses relative to Pathfinder.

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