Well. Apparently Ultimate Equipment is out and the verdict is . . . bzzzzzzz. I'm sorry, the monk gets hosed.
here is the current discussion going on, but there is one thing which was revealed that has me asking Why God? What did the poor monk do to the writers at Paizo to deserve this?
Two things, actually. First, the special weapon property agile isn't in the book. The one property out there that actually (in combination with Weapon Finesse) makes the monk less MAD. The one that rogues and ninjas and bards and rangers love. No, it's not there.
Second, we get the bodywrap of mighty strikes. I'm not going to go into the full details, but it is worn around the chest (like a sports bra?) and grants an enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes or natural attacks. . . .kinda. You see, it grants you one (1) (uno) attack which gets that enhancement bonus each round. Oh, you get two at +6 BAB, three at +11 BAB, and four at +16 BAB. And you get to choose which attack rolls before you roll, so unless you save one for an attack of opportunity, that one won't get the bonus.
Nor will your iterative attacks. Or those from flurry. Or those from haste or similar effects. Or from spending a point of ki. Or from Medusa's Wrath.
Sigh.
But, as usual, this item is better for animal companions and eidolons because it also effects natural attacks! Especially since they don't usually get iterative attacks and your total number of attacks each round is based on the BAB of the wearer.
Wow. I am now just so impressed. No. No, I'm not. Because, the thing that makes this item the bodywrap of absolute suck is that it costs MORE than a normal magic weapon of the same bonus.
Yep, you heard me right, monk-fans. Bonus squared x 3,000 gp for this little piece of glass masquerading as a gemstone. But it is all costume jewelry. Unlike the amulet of mighty fists this one goes up to +7 (why? why?) . . . but has to have a +1 enhancement bonus before any special weapon property. From there, it follows standard weapon rules; enhancement can't be over +5, yada-yada-yada.
So, monk-fans, we get shafted once again. Draw up a chair, hoist a round, and let's share our sorrows together!
Master Arminas
*sobs*
I did a search of the entire PDF using the keywords 'monk' and 'unarmed' (seperately), and didn't find anything else that made up for this.
There are some gloves or amulets that modify your unarmed strike, like allowing you do to acid damage or harden your fists into Adamantine... but they are limited and expensive, as well as taking slots of other important items.
Not done the book however. I've speed-read it once, but I'll hopefully have time to read it in more detail later.
Thread title might be a bit much but on the whole i agree. Though you forgot to mention the main issue you paying for 1.5 weapons enchanted to have a limit on attacks. For normal cost I could have the same number of attacks come from say a temple sword the rest still being unenchanted unarmed strikes and save money. Heck the sword will get its bonus on all the flurry/haste/ki/AoO attacks made with it. So its a better value to still not fight with your fist.
Honestly, I can agree that there are multiple concepts of some books (and their rules) that are easily questionable. Heck, at first I looked over the Staves and thought they were completely useless since all it served as is an extra spell reservoir for one (1) (uno) spell that consumes a slot of the highest level spell imbued within the stave. Excuse me, so if I want a Restoration Spell (4th) once per day, and it has a Heal Spell (at 5th, which I don't need because I would have that spell already), I have to spend a 5th level spell slot in order to get it?
Why don't I just get the spell on my spell list and call it good?
Of course, I did look over a couple fine print things, and it makes it not so horrible. But it does not change the factor that there are obviously much better options to pick over them (*cough*Metamagic Rods*cough*).
The biggest thing you must understand about this, is that there are some items (or for my case, item types,) that are not so great, and that the concept of a Monk is that they themselves are a dangerous foe, and their body is their weapon, not some jock strap they decide to wear.
There are other options that you can pick (outside the UE, but within Pathfinder) that are superior to the item you listed off. Is it pointless? To many, perhaps, and to those who truly understand (or tweak) its purpose, not so much. Does it change the fact that there is still better equipment out there? Not really.
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Darksol the Painbringer, the problem is we keep asking for an item for unarmed strikes only (forget that natural weapon droppings from the south end of a north-bound bull!), and they keep on handing us items with a huge price increase because . . . critters can use it too. And it is too powerfully because of that dragon or hydra or anything else with 4+ attacks if we cut the price down!
For the love of God, just give the monk (and the unarmed fighter archetype, and other characters who use Improved Unarmed Strike) an item that enhances unarmed strikes and not natural weapons. That allows a monk to do his unarmed damage and not some diddly little d3. That is what we want . . . we keep telling them and telling them and telling them . . . and this is what we get.
It is . . . frustrating to say the least.
Master Arminas
'kay, maybe I'm being obtuse. But isn't it better to get a bonus to hit, and/or some sort of special effect on SOME attacks--say one or two a round (which you get to pick) instead of NO attacks?
Is the problem that the item is "no good?" Or just "not good enough?"
'kay, maybe I'm being obtuse. But isn't it better to get a bonus to hit, and/or some sort of special effect on SOME attacks--say one or two a round (which you get to pick) instead of NO attacks?
Is the problem that the item is "no good?" Or just "not good enough?"
+1 magic longsword . . . 2,000 gp. Applies to all attack rolls and damage rolls regardless of the number of attacks you make in a single round. Get combat expertise and go to town. You could (reasonably, with an 14 DEX, which isn't hard to do) get up 3 attacks of opportunity a round. At 1st level. Plus your regular attack. Plus haste. All right, maybe not haste at 1st level. But that is four attacks with a BAB of +1 or LESS, and you get the bonus on all of them. For 2,000 gp.
Bodywraps +1 . . . 3,000 gp. 1 attack a round at 1st level. You don't get a second attack until 6th level (since monk BAB = his level when flurrying) or 8th level (since there is a pesky -2 in there that some GM will say applies) or 8th level (when you aren't using flurry of blows).
Wow. I get to spend more money to get less. Gee thanks.
Master Arminas
Darksol the Painbringer, the problem is we keep asking for an item for unarmed strikes only (forget that natural weapon droppings from the south end of a north-bound bull!), and they keep on handing us items with a huge price increase because . . . critters can use it too. And it is too powerfully because of that dragon or hydra or anything else with 4+ attacks if we cut the price down!
For the love of God, just give the monk (and the unarmed fighter archetype, and other characters who use Improved Unarmed Strike) an item that enhances unarmed strikes and not natural weapons. That allows a monk to do his unarmed damage and not some diddly little d3. That is what we want . . . we keep telling them and telling them and telling them . . . and this is what we get.
It is . . . frustrating to say the least.
Master Arminas
I wouldn't be so shocked about it being able to affect Natural Attacks as well as Unarmed Strikes; The whole concept of it being a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes is because the "Mighty Strikes" part can affect multiple things, such as a claw from a bear, horns of a cow/bull, the punch of a humanoid being, the teeth of a crocodile, etc. Those are all considered types of "Striking," as it does not have one specific definition or detail pertaining to Unarmed Striking, and saying that it's stupid to not affect Natural Weapons is a little harsh.
Honestly, I would search for items meant specifically for a Monk, as I know there are a few items (Monk's Robes, Amulet of Mighty Fists [which makes more sense and goes for what you're gunning toward], others that I haven't even mentioned) that are actually pretty nice.
Does it suck that some concepts and/or content is not implemented or nerfed to the ground? Yeah. Are there ways around it? Yeah. And honestly, if an Unarmed Strike only deals a D3, then I can agree that it needs an upgrade.
Of course, I do believe there are archetypes, feats, and other such that actually increase the damage; I could most easily be wrong, though.
The amulet of mighty fists also applies to unarmed attacks and natural attacks.
Which is one of the big reasons why it costs 5,000 gp x the bonus squared. And look at the difference: for 3,000 gp x bonus squared, you get maximum of 4 attacks a round (at 16+ level) with the enhancement; for that extra 2,000 x the bonus squared? You get ALL of your attacks (a high level monk could get up to 11 attacks a round). A 10-headed hydra wearing the AoMF gets 10 attacks, all enhanced.
Master Arminas
+1 magic longsword . . . 2,000 gp. Applies to all attack rolls and damage rolls regardless of the number of attacks you make in a single round. Get combat expertise and go to town. You could (reasonably, with an 14 DEX, which isn't hard to do) get up 3 attacks of opportunity a round. At 1st level. Plus your regular attack. Plus haste. All right, maybe not haste at 1st level. But that is four attacks with a BAB of +1 or LESS, and you get the bonus on all of them. For 2,000 gp.
Bodywraps +1 . . . 3,000 gp. 1 attack a round at 1st level. You don't get a second attack until 6th level (since monk BAB = his level when flurrying) or 8th level (since there is a pesky -2 in there that some GM will say applies) or 8th level (when you aren't using flurry of blows).
Wow. I get to spend more money to get less. Gee thanks.
Master Arminas
Got it. Except if I want to use a longsword, I'd play a fighter instead of a monk.
So, I want to play a monk, a bare-fisted fighter, kicking and punching and head-butting. Why wouldn't I rather get an extra +3 on some of my attacks instead of none of my attacks?
Are there a lot of other, potentially better bodywraps to choose from?
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This gives me a great idea for a house rule: monks using unarmed strikes and light weapons with Weapon Finesse gain the Agile property.
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'kay, maybe I'm being obtuse. But isn't it better to get a bonus to hit, and/or some sort of special effect on SOME attacks--say one or two a round (which you get to pick) instead of NO attacks?
Is the problem that the item is "no good?" Or just "not good enough?"
+1 magic longsword . . . 2,000 gp. Applies to all attack rolls and damage rolls regardless of the number of attacks you make in a single round. Get combat expertise and go to town. You could (reasonably, with an 14 DEX, which isn't hard to do) get up 3 attacks of opportunity a round. At 1st level. Plus your regular attack. Plus haste. All right, maybe not haste at 1st level. But that is four attacks with a BAB of +1 or LESS, and you get the bonus on all of them. For 2,000 gp.
Bodywraps +1 . . . 3,000 gp. 1 attack a round at 1st level. You don't get a second attack until 6th level (since monk BAB = his level when flurrying) or 8th level (since there is a pesky -2 in there that some GM will say applies) or 8th level (when you aren't using flurry of blows).
Wow. I get to spend more money to get less. Gee thanks.
Master Arminas
Something to consider about the difference in pricing is that an unarmed strike cannot be sundered or disarmed or stolen. Essentially, it is a weapon that is immune to three combat maneuvers. An unarmed strike can also never be broken so you never have to fix it. You also don't have to draw it as any action. Also remember that the dice from a monk's unarmed strike does increase over time, unlike other weapons. By 12th level, you are dual wielding greatswords.
Note I'm not saying that the item doesn't suck. I'm just saying it is wise to consider these differences between normal weapons and unarmed strikes before comparing the pricing.
Are there a lot of other, potentially better bodywraps to choose from?
He's complaining about the fact that said Bodywraps +1 cost more than a Longsword +1, and actually grants less benefits than a Longsword does. In other words, class balance.
There are other choices for a chest slot, but whether they choose to accept them or not is ultimately their decision.
'kay. I obviously don't get it, and likely never will. Sorry; I'll go back to looking for poison threads.
Depends if this item means you can't wear a monk's robe or not. If so, then I wouldn't buy it.
And I don't know of any other bodywraps.
Yep, as it stands chosing a special monk weapon is almost always better than deciding to fight unarmed. A temple sword (which all monks are proficient with, as per the description) does 1d8 damage, costs less than the wraps and can go up to +10 total enhancement (not +7). For just 53,000 more gold +10 vs. +7. 14,000 more gp for a +9 sword vs. +7 wraps; wheras a +8 temple sword is cheaper than the wraps by 15,000 gold. And that temple sword can be cold iron or mithril or silver or adamantine.
MA
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It takes up the body slot, so you can't wear it with Monk's Robe.
Something to consider about the difference in pricing is that an unarmed strike cannot be sundered or disarmed or stolen. Essentially, it is a weapon that is immune to three combat maneuvers. An unarmed strike can also never be broken so you never have to fix it. You also don't have to draw it as any action. Also remember that the dice from a monk's unarmed strike does increase over time, unlike other weapons. By 12th level, you are dual wielding greatswords.
Note I'm not saying that the item doesn't suck. I'm just saying it is wise to consider these differences between normal weapons and unarmed strikes before comparing the pricing.
Wait, so I can't cut off (or completely obliterate) a guy's hand (off) and then steal it when it lops off his wrist? That's some pretty crazy stuff.
So if I try to punch down an indestructible door, and roll a 1, I can't break my hand as a result of the fumble? Which means that I would need to have a heal check and such in order for it to recuperate?
Realistically, I am laughing at these concepts within PF.
"Monkey Boy tries to enter the Castle of Doom and Sadness, and rolls a 1 to break down the impenetrable door! He critically confirms the fail, and he breaks his arm as a result!
Next, Monkey Boy faces the Evil Wizard of Evil (repetitive, I know,) and Evil Wizard of Evil does a Called Shot (Quicken) Scorching Ray on his Hand, and critically burns his hand off his body! He then casts Teleport and snatches it up, cackling as the ingredients for his foul ritual are gathered to put the entire world of Whatsherface into the Oblivion of Doom and Sadness!"
You're telling me stuff like that, according to RAW across all the official PF books, cannot actually happen?
Bull. Sheet.
Something to consider about the difference in pricing is that an unarmed strike cannot be sundered or disarmed or stolen. Essentially, it is a weapon that is immune to three combat maneuvers. An unarmed strike can also never be broken so you never have to fix it. You also don't have to draw it as any action. Also remember that the dice from a monk's unarmed strike does increase over time, unlike other weapons. By 12th level, you are dual wielding greatswords.
Note I'm not saying that the item doesn't suck. I'm just saying it is wise to consider these differences between normal weapons and unarmed strikes before comparing the pricing.
Wait, so I can't cut off (or completely obliterate) a guy's hand (off) and then steal it when it lops off his wrist? That's some pretty crazy stuff.
So if I try to punch down an indestructible door, and roll a 1, I can't break my hand as a result of the fumble? Which means that I would need to have a heal check and such in order for it to recuperate?
Realistically, I am laughing at these concepts within PF.
"Monkey Boy tries to enter the Castle of Doom and Sadness, and rolls a 1 to break down the impenetrable door! He critically confirms the fail, and he breaks his arm as a result!
Next, Monkey Boy faces the Evil Wizard of Evil (repetitive, I know,) and Evil Wizard of Evil does a Called Shot (Quicken) Scorching Ray on his Hand, and critically burns his hand off his body! He then casts Teleport and snatches it up, cackling as the ingredients for his foul ritual are gathered to put the entire world of Whatsherface into the Oblivion of Doom and Sadness!"
You're telling me stuff like that, according to RAW across all the official PF books, cannot actually happen?
Bull. Sheet.
More or less yeah. Especially since in the core rules, there are no critical fumbles. Unarmed strikes don't have a hardness or hp so you can't really sunder them. Furthermore, you'd probably need the called shot rules from UC or house rules to cut off someone's hands.
Antimoney, the problem is that the Monk is a melee combatant. Melee classes have basic gear requirements as the game progresses in level. They need magic weapons and magic defenses just to be able to do their job effectively.
The reason they are left in the dust by every other melee class is because all those other classes have a plethora of items designed to make them better. Lots of items to choose from at a level appropriate price.
The monk does not.
Their melee-centered gear is less effective and more expensive than normal gear, so monks not only have less effective combat equipment, they also have more limited access to support items as well (because they're spending more on the basics).
Oh, and of course we cannot forget this gem from the UE previews: the brawling special armor property.
The wearer of brawling armor gains +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonus do not apply to natural weapons. This speical ability does not prevent the wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
It is a +1 special armor property bonus. +1!!
The bonus on attack and damage rolls is untyped and stacks with everything . . . but monks can't wear armor. AND they get to apply the bonus to grapple, but monks with an AoMF that they spend up to 200,000 gp on . . . don't. Basically, for +2 suit of armor (+1 bonus and +1 brawling property) that you spend 4,000 gp on, you get a better effect than a +2 AoMF which costs 20,000 gp . . . and that it stacks with.
Yeah. There is NO bias against unarmed fighting monks at Paizo.
Master Arminas
I really really hope that there is a lot of sarcasm involved with this thread. Otherwise I'd be sad.I can't tell, my sarcasm meter broke a long time ago.
Heh. Good one.
Depends if this item means you can't wear a monk's robe or not. If so, then I wouldn't buy it.
And I don't know of any other bodywraps.
Yep, as it stands chosing a special monk weapon is almost always better than deciding to fight unarmed. A temple sword (which all monks are proficient with, as per the description) does 1d8 damage, costs less than the wraps and can go up to +10 total enhancement (not +7). For just 53,000 more gold +10 vs. +7. 14,000 more gp for a +9 sword vs. +7 wraps; wheras a +8 temple sword is cheaper than the wraps by 15,000 gold. And that temple sword can be cold iron or mithril or silver or adamantine.
MA
Hell for 49k more I can two +7 temple swords and have all my attacks be +7 you know the same price the TWF guys pay. Is it so much to ask to be allowed to actually be able to fight unarmed without paying through the nose for percieved benefits of it being unarmed and thus un disarmable/sunderable.
RAW, there are no fumbles and no way to remove body parts during a fight (besides vorpal weapons). Plenty of people house rule otherwise though. (And I'm not exactly sure what happens if you sunder someone's fist. It's left to DM discretion I think.)
Edit: Ninja'd x 7 :P
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SKR has already pointed out that items can fix the monk. The monk needs to be redone. So wouldn't it be good to cut the Devs some slack?
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No, Zark.
Paizo used to do long, involved public playtests of new material. That's one of the primary reasons this community was created. Problems like this were quickly found and dealt with.
The less public playtesting Paizo does the more problems arise with how new material interacts with old material.
Sorry, I know they try . . . and try hard, but.
Suddenly I am reminded of that Sean from The Rock with Sean Connery talking to Nicolas Cage. "Try," Connery says, "that's what losers always say. I tried my best. Bah. Winners go home and [bleep] the prom queen."
Or something like that.
Is it bad that we just want the monk to be the best unarmed fighter in the game? But no, everything instead applies to unarmed attacks and natural weapons equally, except for stuff that monks can't use because it is armor. Meanwhile, the monk, whose whole schtick is unarmed fighting struggles along behind everyone else.
But they keep on trying . . . in the Connery sense of word.
Master Arminas
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SKR has already pointed out that items can fix the monk. The monk needs to be redone. So wouldn't it be good to cut the Devs some slack?
Personally I'm putting my hopes on the monk fix coming after GenCon as far as making up the disparity between them and the other melee classes. I'd honestly rather any fix for monks be a part of the class itself, but until them it's pretty much "any port in a storm" mode.
That said, still holding back on judgment on the wraps until I use them in actual play. Trying to stay optimistic.
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No, Zark.
Paizo used to do long, involved public playtests of new material. That's one of the primary reasons this community was created. Problems like this were quickly found and dealt with.
The less public playtesting Paizo does the more problems arise with how new material interacts with old material.
You can probably thank the lack of playtesting lately to much of the vitriol you saw in the forums during said playtests. People seem to be unable to give feedback and criticism without insulting each other and the devs.
They're a worn item. They can be sundered.
You can sunder any worn item you have access to. So, unless he is wearing a shirt atop it . . . sure.
Master Arminas
Well, I am going to bed for the night. See you guys in the morning, I hope.
MA
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You can probably thank the lack of playtesting lately to much of the vitriol you saw in the forums during said playtests. People seem to be unable to give feedback and criticism without insulting each other and the devs.
+1
And the fact that a lot of people (guilty myself) actually don't play test all the stuff. They post some of their opinions after just reading the stuff.
Also, regarding the sundering/can't be sundered issue: Can't the wraps themselves still be sundered?
Or even Stolen with Improved Steal?
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The less public playtesting Paizo does the more problems arise with how new material interacts with old material.
SKR has already pointed out that items can fix the monk. The monk needs to be redone. So wouldn't it be good to cut the Devs some slack?With this crowd, and this issue...the problem is really that this really starts to come across as "Let's see if we can provoke the pro-Monk crowd some more."
I strongly doubt it is meant that way, but it's getting kind of hard to deny that there's a disconnect somewhere in this process.
Post like this are really unnecessary. Do you really think the Devs like taunting a part of their fan base just for fun?
Sure, I think it sucks the monk can't use the Brawling Ability, but I don't think the Devs did that just to spite monk players.
Wait, did people ever stop using magical gauntlets?
Yes way back when it was ruled that if your using any type of weapon be it gauntlets brass knuckles a cestus that you weren't using your unarmed strike damage.
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Yes way back when it was ruled that if your using any type of weapon be it gauntlets brass knuckles a cestus that you weren't using your unarmed strike damage.
That, but it was also an absolute mood killer for players that wanted their monks to be barehanded. And to also kick, elbow, knee, and headbutt.
Gauntlets fit the flavor some folks were looking for, but for those that wanted their monks to "be the weapon", it was no solace.
Yes way back when it was ruled that if your using any type of weapon be it gauntlets brass knuckles a cestus that you weren't using your unarmed strike damage.
When/where was this?
I will have to look if Master Arminas comes back before I can find it I'm sure he can link it before I do.