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They have slightly worse saving throws than other similar characters and rely on Charisma (unless you multiclass) meaning that unless you're trying to be a party-face melee specialist, another class would be slightly more optimal for the majority of situations.
Compared to "core rogue versus core druid" or "core paladin versus core fighter" it seems pretty minor to me.
It does seem like a minor issue to me. I don't consider 10% nearly as earth shattering a difference as the pathfinder class differences. However I like to see everyone happy so I'm down for a saving throw boosting revelation in a later book.
Yeah to sum up what I've gotten. I think it is mostly charisma as their resolve stat which makes them "mad" and because of the mad they are going to have 2 less on fort and reflex saves then a soldier*.
*If built optimally for damage*
I think a nice revelation to boost saves a bit would make them all happy. or having wisdom as their resolve stat.
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Wait that's the problem? That they don't have as good saves as Soliders and use charisma (and as far as I can see still do a good job at melee)?
That's the core of my complaints, yes. Though as I've said: My issue is with Charisma as a stat, specifically. It's also a complaint I can level at the Envoy, that Charisma feels like half a stat compared to the others.
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OK well yes charisma is not as strong A Stat as say Dex. Everyone knows that and as far as Mad goes I can see that but that's nothing new (don't mean to do the look at pathfinder x but it's the same designers). But it seems that you get more class power right? To balance out having to take charisma. I mean if you do almost as much damage or the same damage as a strength based soldier then you have to be getting power from somewhere right?
OK well yes charisma is not as strong A Stat as say Dex. Everyone knows that and as far as Mad goes I can see that but that's nothing new (don't mean to do the look at pathfinder x but it's the same designers). But it seems that you get more class power right? To balance out having to take charisma. I mean if you do almost as much damage or the same damage as a strength based soldier then you have to be getting power from somewhere right?
See I think that is where the argument is at from what I can tell. some people feel that the other solarian class features make up for it and some say that the revelations aren't good enough to make up for it.
Hmm maybe a feat to let you use charisma instead of wisdom on will saves (of course then their will be complaints about feat taxes.)
Basically it seems charisma doesn't do enough.
I think I would let my Dex and Str suffer a little one less ac 1 less + to hit and damage. To keep my charisma up a fair amount so its really only a 5% decrease. hmm
easiest way is still a revelation that gives bonus to saves.
Could also just let them pick from two stats for their key stat like Soldiers do. Str or Cha would make sense.
Honestly, if that was allowed I'd want them to get access to some more 'I can do whenever' charisma-based blasting. To make charisma a more even choice. As taking Strength would basically never be the wrong option there even if you DO also want to have a decent charisma, as strength is the attack stat and will almost always be your priority.
I keep seeing this complaint that a solarian HAS to have at LEAST 12 intelligence to make use of sidreal influence. It's just wrong. With sidreal influence you basically get a skill focus in 6 skills built into the class, the average for 1d6 is 3.5. You don't have to put ranks in every skill to get benefit from sidreal influence. You only have to put ranks in 1 of the 6 skills to get what is effectively a feat's benefit, but you can put ranks into any or all of them if you want. You basically get 6 feats for free.
So you get no benefit from ranking up any one of those skills?
In practice, no you do not. The d20 system is mor or less balanced around the idea that +1/-1 is a +5/-5% chance off success, however,that is assuming that your total bonus places you within 20 point of the DC. With only a single rank in a skill, you are still going to fall off in most cases, and at best, you're looking at something along the lines of "My sideral influence is giving me a 20% chance of succeeded at a one or two skills I havent invested much in.
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@ hwalsh
What you are saying is that with your build and priorities you get little but still some benefit from sidreal influence. It is still of benefit to you, just not as much, but that is because of the build that you are advocating. Also any skill can be a class skill for a solarian because they get to pick two for themselves.
@martinaj
I understand that if you aren't focused on any of the skills sidreal influence boosts it is not enough to be useful, however you basically get a choice of 6 skills you get what is effectively a skill focus in, you can't use all of them, but you CAN pick 1 or two and gain the benefit.
The Sidereal Influence discussion also seems to gather some of the "Schrodinger's Solarian" trapping. As in people feel Int is necessary to make full use of this ability because it can apply to 6 skills -- at 19th level and only half of those get the bonus at any given time.
With Sidereal Influence you pick 1 Photon and Graviton skill like say, Bluff (Graviton) and Culture (Photon). You spend 1 minute in contemplation of your navel about your saving throws, and *pick* a category -- either Photon *or* Graviton. You then get a 1D6 to add to that single skill roll.
At level 11 you can pick another Photon and Graviton skill and after you depress your friends by navel gazing again you can activate 2 skills of a given category to gain that 1D6.
Sidereal Influence is a nice perk but it doesn't seem worth focusing an entire build around either.
Int is nice for more skill points for *everyone*. Solarians have to pick something to specialize in. That's not that big a deal.
If people want to play with 14 Con & Wis and ignore save enhancing feats on ANY class, then fine. That's not really a problem with the class though.
So Oldskool you prompted me to go back and reread sidereal influence more closely. I disagree with you about the "a single skill check" as it says "when attempting a skill check... This ability lasts until you enter combat..." but I can understand why you interpreted the text that way.
Here's an attempt to describe the effects of sidereal influence in a simpler form as the text of the ability is somewhat confusing.
Level 3:
- Pick two skills each from a specific list either list A or list B.
- Out of combat chose a list to activate.
- Gain 1d6 bonus on checks associated with the skill from the active list.
- Change active lists with 1 minute meditation as desired.
Effect: Basically you get a single skill focus effective bonus to two skiles from a limited list, but only 1 is active at a time.
Level 11:
- Choose another skill on list A and another on list B
Effect: Now you have 4 skills with bonuses, but only 2 may be active at a time. These are still restricted by the lists available.
Level 19:
- Choose another skill on list A and another on list B
Effect: Now you have 6 skills with bonuses, but only 3 may be active at a time. These are still restricted by the lists available.
There is definitely a case of diminishing returns with this because as a solarian you likely will not have a lot of skill points and may not want to focus on three skill that are all on the same list. However it is still a solid bonus if not amazing.
So Oldskool you prompted me to go back and reread sidereal influence more closely. I disagree with you about the "a single skill check" as it says "when attempting a skill check... This ability lasts until you enter combat..." but I can understand why you interpreted the text that way.
We're on the same page. I interpret it exactly the way you lay out in your follow up post in my head.
My exact words were "1D6 to add to that single skill roll". I should have said "1D6 to add to rolls made by that single skill" to be more clear.
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Personally I like the solarion class, I think it's good at filling a number of roles and if I had elected to play party face would probably pick it over envoy, which I just don't enjoy nearly as much. You don't really need much Cha unless you want it, it has no where near the Resolve drain that other classes do. Probably to offset the fact that it won't have a lot of resolve. And if you want more there's a feat for that. I understand that if you hyperspecialize to the exclusion of all else your saves will suffer, but that's because you've excluded all else as being important. Sidereal influence as a skill boost goes has some of the best skills to choose from even if you don't want to be the face, everyone likes sense motive. A mechanic has to be level 9 to meet your bonus and 13 to beat it. And while they may like their skills they don't get to modify them to better fit their style. I'll admit that I feel a squeeze for skill points with it, but I feel the same with most classes.
No worries, I have often written something that made sense in my head when I wrote it only to have it be understood differently :)
I've been around these forums since the beginning, Matt, and I somehow missed "all these Solarion/Soldier" threads you refer to. Care linking to a few of them for us? I can only recall one or two discussions msyelf.
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I've been around these forums since the beginning, Matt, and I somehow missed "all these Solarion/Soldier" threads you refer to. Care linking to a few of them for us? I can only recall one or two discussions msyelf.
Wait, seriously?
They were breeding like rabbits when subscribers started getting their pdfs.
As I said, I recall one or two. Much of the discussion appeared to be largely contained to those threads, not spammed all over the place.
I remember it coming up a lot, but it was mostly the same couple people bringing up their "one true build" on, like, every thread to mention Solarians.
So we've had ranged solarians, cha avoiding melee solarians and cha avoiding ranged solarians along with a bevy of other iterations on those concepts all presented and I have to admit that with options like that you can present a build that's still offensively competitive while being able to offer stronger defenses.
But, and this might make some people roll their eyes, I actually think all these examples help higlights ome of the problems with the Solarian:
Does any other class gain as much by ignoring their own class features? That's the one commonality between all these builds. Cut your cha and ignore save offering revelations to boost your other defenses. Ignore your melee boosting stuff and pick up a gun for more consistent and safer damage. Etc.
Ultimately it's clear you can build a pretty solid Solarian, but I think it's also telling just how viable (perhaps even optimal in some cases) it is to build a Solarian that avoids being too much of a Solarian and how comparatively limited some of the more obvious or intended builds feel.
To answer my own question... kind of. Low investment in your key attribute and avoiding saves is also a thing that Mechanics and Envoys can pull off pretty well.
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Low investment in your key attribute and avoiding saves is also a thing that Mechanics and Envoys can pull off pretty well.
Your point here is actually how I tend to view potential character building within Starfinder.
Here is how I see the classes...
Operative/Soldier - Max Dex or your combat stat of choice. Both of these classes gain combat advantages and resolve for maxing out their specific attribute. The placement of their resolve stat is convenient enough to allow for flexibility in placing attributes elsewhere. Mechanically, I see little reason to not go all in on either class.
Technomancer/Mystic - I can see good reasons on starting with Int/Wis at 16 but again, having an 18 is very compelling. The trade off with a split focus towards casting stat and possibly Dex is going to vary based on preference. Again, mechanically you gain so much from going all in, you may as well do so just like the Soldier/Operative.
Mechanic/Envoy/Solarian - Each of these classes has a decision to make. They are all a little bit like hybrids in my opinion. The Mechanic can be a sound combatant and likes having a higher relevant combat related stat like Dex for range builds. Depending on what you're going for, you can start with less in Int vs going all in. However, unlike the other two classes in this bracket, the Mechanic has a far stronger resolve stat in Int even if they make a choice to start with something like a 14.
TL;DR:
Soldier/Operative - seems a no-brainer to go all in on the resolve stat
Technomancer/Mystic - some slight decision making on opportunity cost to shifting attribute focus on the resolve stat
Mechanic/Envoy/Solarian - greater decision making on opportunity costs to shifting attribute focus on the resolve stat
I feel like this thread has succumbed to the same problem that led to official play-tests being abandoned: there's a lot of *talk* about what would, could, or should happen with a class, but there's very little report of actual play experience. What happened when you played a Solarion? Did you have fun? Did you feel useless? Did you fail too many saves? Did another class usurp the role you thought you had? Did the class features contribute to the RP character concept you had in mind? Such reports are anecdotal, but there's at least *some* empirical support or disproof of the armchair analysis going back and forth here.
It is true that there is a lack of actual play experience, but with the game being so new many of us haven't had a chance to play a solarian especially not at higher levels.
Starship Combat: Sad Solarian. Lack of skill ranks to fill the Captains chair, with INT being a dump stat and required for Computers & Engineering, and lots of people picking up Piloting and having a better DEX stat (Pilot & Gunner), means the Solarian takes the spare wheel spot. There if needed but everyone else does the job better.
I feel like 'Boarding' would have been a fun mechanic for spaceship combat. Not full on 'take over the ship' boarding but leading strike teams to damage parts of it. Athletics or Diplomacy (Based on how you are doing it) based would have given melee characters and non-captain social people stuff to do.
You can prove that absolute limits Solarion falls behind, but what about relative limits?
What chance of success do you need?
Do you think 2 revelations 1 for each save? My thought was 1 for all 3 but I guess that would be to strong eh?
I like your idea for the atunement bonuses of +2 and then +4 atuned so it cancels out the weakness and then gives you something extra for the revelation. but yeah now that I think about it +4 is probably a bit to much so 2 revs for it seems about right.
Maybe make the attunement bonus pseudo-evasion? Spend a resolve to turn 'Half' into 'Nulled' as you absorb the effect like it just vanished into your event horizon.
Maybe make the attunement bonus pseudo-evasion? Spend a resolve to turn 'Half' into 'Nulled' as you absorb the effect like it just vanished into your event horizon.
That is not bad. so +2 always and Stalwart/evasion for whatever save you get it for when attuned.