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Is there any consensus on if/how Natural Weapons racial ability and Ring of Fangs specialization bonuses stack? These are the rough arguments I've seen:

2x:
Natural Weapons and Ring of Fangs both give a modified specialization bonus. You just apply the higher of the two.

2.5x:
You breakdown the bonuses from specialization, natural weapons, and ring of fangs. Specialization adds character level, natural weapons adds half character level, Ring of Fangs adds your chatacter level again.

3.5x:
Natural Weapons and Ring of Fangs stack completely so you apply your full specialization bonus from both.

--

Natural Weapons: Vesk gain a unique weapon specialization with their natural weapons at 3rd level, allowing them to add 1–1/2 × their character level to their damage rolls for their natural weapons (instead of just adding their character level, as usual).

Ring of Fangs: You automatically gain a special version of the Weapon Specialization feat that adds double your level to the damage of these unarmed attacks (rather than adding your level).


This sheet is amazing, thank you.


One thing to consider is the Bullet Barrage gear boost for soldiers which might balance out the KAC/EAC differences for projectile weapons.


Yeah I was thinking STR 18, DEX 14 for max to hit, damage, and AC.

Advanced Melee / Unarmed Strike with Ring of Fangs

Gear Boost: Melee Striker

Feats:
1: Weapon Focus (Advanced Melee or Basic Melee if you want to go all in on Ring of Fangs)
2: Step Up
3: Coordinated Shot
4: Improved Unarmed Strike
5: Enhanced Resistance
6: Step Up and Strike

Ring of Fangs starts out damaging every advanced melee option at level 4 and continues for awhile. You can't add fusions to it though so that might be a consideration. Step Up and Strike requires BAB of 6 so can't get it until level 6.


Has anyone done melee soldier optimization? I know there is a 50 page melee solarian guide but a quick search of the forums doesn't show anything for soldiers.

I suppose they are fairly easy to build but an analysis would still be useful I think.


Have you considered adding melee into this?


If you don't want the save buffs (which I like but are admittedly boring) I'd recommend Sky Jockey and Fleet for more mobility or Toughness for more stamina.

The feat mobility itself has less value to me since you can already disable attacks of opportunity with Uncanny Mobility. Mobility is a tax for Shot on the Run / Spring Attack so if you're going Mobility at 3 definitely get the second part at 5 for whichever play style you're going for.

Also I would recommend against deadly aim, mathematically it's almost never worth using due to lowering your hit chance.


No, you can't because tumble is a move action and trick attack is a full action. You can take the Uncanny Mobility at level 2 though to not provoke against your target.


Could also just let them pick from two stats for their key stat like Soldiers do. Str or Cha would make sense.


There are three types of magic/hybrid items. Worn, held, and consumable. Only worn items have a limit. I like Xenocrat's point that worn items have to be worn to gain the benefit.

For example holding a ring of resistance or having one in your bag does nothing. It's not until you put it on your finger that you gain a bonus to your lowest resistance.

This would be consistent with a null-space chamber not being worn because it always works, whether it's sitting in a cargo hold, in your backpack, or on your belt.

I'm still unsure about the bandolier. It seems to function like a null-space chamber but only for ammo so I'm going to go with not worn.


Do Null-Space Chambers and Efficient Bandoliers count towards your worn magic item limit?

Page 222 says "Worn magic items are things like rings, cloaks, amulets, and gloves." Helms/circlets have also been specifically called out.

Null-Space Chambers can be "attached to an arm or backpack." Efficient Bandolier "fits over a medium creature."

I lean towards them not counting, but curious what others thought.


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When you crit with a weapon that has the burn or corrode do you suffer burn/corrode damage when you take the hit or not until your next turn starts after you gain the effect? I don't think you take the damage until the start of your turn but I've had different people rule it differently.

Also it says burn from different sources is cumulative. If a soldier lucked out and crit three times in a full attack with a 4d8 burn weapon does the target take 12d8 burn damage each round at the start of their turn until they save?


I wanted to revisit some DPR numbers now that the Ferrans have come out. They get to add their level to damage on the first hit after moving at least 10 feet. Seems perfect for a melee focused Operative.

Their starting stats aren't great, so I decided to use the quick pick to get 14 Str, 18 Dex, and 11/10/10/10 for the others. Boost Str and Dex four times and put your +6 in Dex and your +4 in Str to end up with 28 Dex (+9) and 24 Str (+7). I'm using the 35 EAC 37 KAC from the alien archive level 20 combatant. All final DPR numbers include crits including one round of corrode damage for the disintegrator pistol.

Trick Attack Baton, advanced:
8d6+10d8+17+20 = 110 vs 37 KAC = 71.5 DPR (72.8 if you get +9 Str)

Full Attack Baton, advanced
32d6+68 = 180 vs 37 KAC = 63 DPR (65.8 if you get +9 Str)

Trick Attack Gyrojet pistol, elite:
5d12+10d8+10 = 87.5 vs 37 KAC = 56.875 DPR

Full Attack Gyrojet pistol, elite:
20d12+40 = 170 vs 37 KAC = 59.5 DPR

Trick Attack Disintegrator pistol, eradicator:
3d20+10d8+10 = 86.5 vs 35 EAC = 65.225 DPR

Full Attack Disintegrator pistol, eradicator:
12d20+40 = 166 vs 35 EAC = 76.1 DPR

Looks like the new Ferran race will be the king of melee trick attacks but anyone with a Disintegrator pistol within 30 ft would do more full attacking thanks to targeting EAC and it's extra damage on crit. I do like the idea of the Ferran with spring attack being able to get into and out of melee with the operative's high speed and being able to put out maximum trick attack DPR.


Regarding Natural Weapons and Ring of Fangs. They both indicate you get a "special version of weapon specialization" with your unarmed attacks. Natural weapons grants 1.5x and Ring of Fangs grants 2x. It isn't a typed bonus but since they are both granting the same thing (weapon specialization) I'd assume that you just apply the higher one.

Hammer fist I'm not sure. The intention seems to be making your unarmed strike equal to a battleglove and the battleglove would use your Basic Weapon Specialization so I'm guessing no but again not sure.

A little off topic but Ring of Fangs and Improved Unarmed strike seem pretty good.

1d6 + 8 + Str at 4th level
2d6 + 16 + Str at 8th level
3d6 + 24 + Str at 12th level
5d6 + 30 + Str at 15th level
7d6 + 40 + Str at 20th level

Level 20 fully optimized would be a soldier with melee striker for 7d6 + 53 = average of 77.5 x 3 = 232.5 DPR vs Curve blade, dimensional slice 12d10 + 33 = average of 99 x 3 = 297 DPR.

Not too bad for 315 credits and a feat. Does cost a worn magic item slot though and there's no way to enhance it with fusions (that I'm aware of).


I think the two I'd always take are:

Azata - Highest ranged damage
Protean - Fly, grab, blindsense

For the other two slots some combination of Air Elemental, Earth Elemental, Shadow Creature, Agathian at 5/6, and the unique summons.

The uniques that jump out at me are the Haan (3) for its balloon attack and cone attack, Mountain Eel (4) for Paralyze and Trample, Orocoran (4) for its confusion attack and See Invisibility, and the Surnoch (5) for its line attack.


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So the ghost has to use its level 5 ability in order to use its level 1 ability effectively? And if he chooses to use his level 5 ability to sneak into an area before combat he'll be useless in combat?

I'll restate my earlier point: Are you going to disallow survival in an open field (or indoors) because you can't "use your surroundings"? Are you going to disallow bluff and intimidate against mindless monsters because they don't think? Are you going to make the operative physically use a computer since you can't hack at range unless you're a mechanic? Is sleight of hand useless against enemies that don't have vision? How many restrictions are you going to put on an operative's class defining ability?

If your guys' interpretation were correct then the only logical conclusion would to play the daredevil specialization 100% of the time.


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Andy Brown wrote:

So you have one reading for one skill that stops the trick attack being possible, and one reading for that skill that allows the trick attack to happen like every other skill and like the game's designers say should happen.

I think from those possibilities it's clear that it should be possible to use stealth to perform a trick attack if you're observed.

I strongly agree with this. Trick attack lets you make a check using your bonus to either bluff, intimidate, stealth, athletics, sense motive, survival, computers, or sleight of hand depending on your specialization.

Rules lawyering this so that stealth can't be used anytime in combat and every other mode can doesn't make sense. This isn't contract law and I don't understand why you are trying so hard to disqualify stealth. Operatives need trick attack to stay relevant in combat. Solarians and Soldiers crush them. Every other class with longarms would crush them if they couldn't consistently trick attack in combat until maybe when they get triple attack.

Are you going to disallow survival in an open field because you can't "use your surroundings"? Are you going to disallow bluff and intimidate against mindless monsters because they don't think? Are you going to make the operative physically use a computer since you can't hack at range unless you're a mechanic? Is sleight of hand useless against enemies that don't have vision? How deep does this rabbit hole go?

If I was playing with a GM that insisted on all these restrictions I'd just go daredevil and always use acrobatics which I can't think of any reasonable way to disallow use of. All of these modes always work and you should use whichever suits your character's theme the most.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Unless I am mistaken all the summon that are based on the elemental stat block use the table on page 129 for ability DC.

Ah yeah that would make sense, thank you!


Any thoughts on the Alien Archive races? Two that stood out to me for the melee focused solarian are:

Nuar - 40ft speed, charge without penalty at level 1 (and charge through difficult terrain once you get Stellar Rush), Vesk's natural weapons ability. +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex, 6HP.

Shobhad - 40ft speed, Large, 10ft reach, 4 arms. +4 Str, -2 Int, 6HP.


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I took a closer look at the book and there are a few interesting abilities you can get from the summons that aren't the basic elemental/summoning grafts:

Level 2
Security Robot: 2 Stickybomb Grenades (Entangle DC 10)

Level 3
Crest-eater: every attack drains one Con DC 13
Haan: Balloon attack, raises enemy into the air 30 ft each round, DC 14. Firespray 30 ft cone 3d6 DC 14 half

Level 4
Mountain Eel: Paralyze 1 round DC 14. Trample 1d8+11 DC 16
Orocoran: Projectile Vomit +16 1d10+6 plus confusion 1d4 rounds DC 16. Constant see invisibility. Augury (but can't use due to reserve point rule)

Level 5
Surnoch: Acid Jet +18 3d6+9 Line 60ft. Also has constrict style grab damage but its attack doesn't grab so not sure how useful that would be.

All six levels
Air Elemental: Whirlwind (can suck people in and do damage to them and cause them to be grappled, off-target, and flat-footed). Sidenote, anyone know how to calculate the DC for whirlwind? I don't see it listed anywhere for air elementals.
Water Elemental: Vortex (same as whirlwind) but in the water so not as useful.

The most exciting option to me is the Orocoran. It's no Bralani Azata but confusing a bunch of enemies seems fun.


Finally, a use for Skittermanders!


There are no grafts that give spellcasting. I haven't looked closely but I saw another reader say there is only one summonabke monster with a spell (augury) but since it costs a reserve point to use the summon can't use it.

I think for me the big gap is loss of think like the Anklyosaurs with his stun attack or any if the cats with their charge pounce and 5 attacks on hit. No tripping monsters, just grab. Even the poor earth elemental won't be as effective since it requires contact with a planet or astroid and most combat will be on ships or inside on metal flooring.

Everyone's point regarding tying up the battlefield, flanking, taking hits, etc. are very relevant but I felt like a lot of the good summons from Pathfinder are gone.

Will have to play test to see how it goes.


So reading the summon creature spell from Alien Archive and I can't help but feel summoning got nerfed to the ground.

For those that haven't seen it yet, Summon Creature is a variable level spell usable by both technomancers and mystics.

Level 1 - Tiny CR 1/2 Elemental - Melee +5 1d6+3
Level 2 - Small CR 1 Elemental - Melee +9 1d6+5
Level 3 - Medium CR 3 Elemental - Melee +12 1d6+7
Level 4 - Large CR 5 Elemental - Melee +15 1d6+10
Level 5 - Huge CR 7 Elemental - Melee +18 2d6+12
Level 6 - Elder CR 11 Elemental - Melee +24 4d6+11 multiattack (don't understand this line, usually multiattack shows you the multiple attacks you're doing)

When you learn the spell you can pick 4 grafts to apply to your creatures, each graft tweaks the monster, and there are alignment/class restrictions. You get to choose from among the four basic elementals, and all sorts of different summons like angels, devils, azatas, archons, etc.

The grafts range from just changing damage types, to adding ranged attacks, adding abilities, giving different skills, languages, etc.

There are also a very small number of actual creatures you can summon that have stat blocks in the alien archive.

The spell lasts 1 round per character level and for the higher level versions you can either get 1 creature of that level or 3 creatures of a lower level.

Anyway, I did some comparing and I'm having a hard time justifying actually taking this as a spell known. I loved being a conjuration wizard in Pathfinder but the starfinder version seems extremely nerfed. Curious what others think.

Two grafts that jumped out at me were the Protean for its 60ft fly speed and grab attack and the Azata with it's good ranged attack. I didn't do too much math but I think it might always be worth casting one level below, like at level 7 for summon creature three you could get 3 Proteans all in melee taking opportunity attacks and attacking for +9 1d6+5 and maybe grabbing people. Or summon three Azata and ranged attack for +9 1d6+1 at 120 ft. Or you could cast Explosive Blast and do 9d6 fire damage in a 20 foot radius...


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does a Forcepack recharge? It has 100 charges and consumes 2 charges per round to grant a 60 foot fly speed. It is a hybrid upgrade.

Hybrid Items: Page 226 - A hybrid item’s charges are inherent to the construction of the item and can’t be replenished with generators or batteries. Charges for a hybrid item either refresh each day or never refresh, depending on the item.

Armor Upgrades - Capacity: Page 204-205. For a technological armor upgrade that requires charges to function, this entry lists the maximum size battery the upgrade can hold. The batteries that upgrades hold can be recharged as normal using either a generator or a recharging station (see page 234). A magic armor upgrade that can be used a certain number of times runs on magical charges; these charges are integral to the construction of the item and can’t be replenished with generators or batteries. Charges for a magic item either refresh each day or never refresh.

My interpretation was that it would take an Ultra Capacity Battery that you could swap out and recharge like a Jetpack. Another player thought that since it was hybrid and that it doesn't say that it recharges once per day (like a Haste Circuit does) that once the 50 charges are used it doesn't work anymore.

For something that costs 13,100 credits that seems crazy to me so wanted to see what the community thought.


I wonder if the investment into fabricate arms is really worth it?

The following feat and hack path would make sense for the Fabricate Arms build:

Android
1 - Stats: 10/16/10/18/10/8
1 - Weapon Proficiency Longarms
2 - Empower Weapon or Harmful Spells
3 - Versatile Specialization
5 - Weapon Focus Longarms or Weapon Proficiency Heavy Weapons
5 - Fabricate Arms
5 - Stats: 12/18/12/19/10/8
7 - Versatile Focus or Weapon Focus Heavy Weapons
8 - Spellshot
9 - Feat
10 - Stats: 14/19/14/20/10/8

(Option at level 5 and 7 if you'd rather always carry a real heavy weapon or stick with longarms and just summon heavy weapons as needed.)

It costs you an additional feat, 4 in either Con or Wis which is -2 to that save and other associated skills, and your level 5 magical hack. Then in each combat you want to make a weapon it costs you one of your precious spells per day and a full action. In return you get exceptional versatility being able to use any weapon in the book but is the cost too high?


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They mystic star shaman on page 91 looks better than the Ysoki art in their racial entry on page 54 in my opinion. They apparently evolved on multiple planets so you could customize the appearance a bit if your group is okay with it.


User Error wrote:

I'm tremendously interested in playing a Shirren Operative (ever since it occured to me I can make Krombopulos Michael) and I'm curious to see what everyone thinks of the Shirren racial abilities as an Operative. Not the optimal race I'm sure, but I'm okay with that.

I'm not actually playing Krombopulos Michael. Rather a socially-anxious fellow who uses cloaking devices to avoid talking to people.

In addition to what I already wrote you could use the ability array rules to ignore the racial and theme bonuses and just assign either 18/14/11/10/10/10 or 16/16/11/10/10/10 among your stats however you like.

One last thought I had is you could go Android that looks like a Shirren. The Android section says rarely they customize themselves to look like other races so it's a possibility...


Curious if anyone has more to share regarding this topic. My group will have four players and we plan to cover pilot, gunner, captain, and engineer with the engineer hopping in science role if needed.

Anyone playing with less than 5 people have experience on how this has gone in your campaigns?

Is there anywhere in the book that details hiring NPC crew members? I didn't see much mechanically in the starship section regarding it other than saying large teams would support the officer (but they don't even add anything to skill checks as far as I can tell).


Mechanically you should always use your highest modifier which will probably be your specialization trick attack skill. You don't need to ever use any of the other skills but can if you are suffering ability drain or just want to role play it.

I'd definitely support creative ways of describing what you're doing but at the end of the day you want to have the highest chance of trick attacking for the damage and debilitations.


+2 Wis +2 Con -2 Cha stat modifiers isn't ideal. I'm leaving Wis and Con at 10 for mine so that will cost you 4 points of Int/Dex. Dumping Cha is fine. Getting +1 Save to Fort and Will is a decent consolation though.

Blindsense seems great against invisible creatures but they still have full concealment which means a 50% miss chance but at least you know where they are. Thirty foot range is a bit small though.

Communalism is strong. A free double roll once per day on any attack or skill check is awesome.

+2 Culture and Diplomacy is okay. The Culture is much more useful because your 8 Charisma is and no class skill bonus for Diplomacy is going to make that check pretty bad.

Telepathy is always handy.

Overall not the greatest but if it fits your character's theme go for it. You get 4 more HP than a Ysoki or Halfling and 2 HP more than an Android which will make you more durable at level 1. I'd go for 10/16/12/14/12/8 or 10/18/12/12/12/8.


Ah that makes sense, yeah you could definitely be the supreme physical science user with Alien Archive. My only concern would be what you'd actually be making knowledge checks for.

The table on page 133 shows the identify creature checks and you will use either Life Science, Mysticism, or Engineering.

At level 8 Life Science untrained would be +14 like you said assuming +3 from Int. Mysticism would be +12 assuming +1 from Wis.

DCs to identify would at CR 8 would be 17, 22, or 27 depending on how rare the creature is so while scouting you could take 10 against common and average monsters and have an okay chance to identify rare monsters (40% for life science and 30% for mysticism).


Jack everything looks like it would line up. You'd have the +4 BAB at level 5 for shot on the run so everything looks legal.

I'm unsure how alien archive and jack of all trades work together. They both double your operative's edge bonus.

How exactly are you getting +17 Life Science and +14 Mysticism? Is this untrained or with 8 ranks? Can't tell from the way you wrote it.

I'm not sure if I would want to delay all my trick attack dice and other operative abilities by one level but if anything would make it worth it I suppose it would be Blitz soldier.


I don't get why hygiene kits are 1 bulk when every other kit is L bulk. Does space toothpaste, soap, and grooming equipment really weigh five to ten pounds?

Pg 167: Estimating Bulk - As a general rule, an item that weighs around 5 to 10 pounds is 1 bulk.


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This Google Sheets Character Sheet is the best one I've found for an HTML style one. The guy that made it makes fixes quickly if you post in the reddit thread with any bugs you find.


Yeah I forgot to change my battery to 30 small arm rounds. Noticed too late and can't edit it!

I found the DPR calc that takes hit chance and crits into account thank you for providing some numbers Deadmanwalking. That does make mobility and shot on the run more appealing knowing that the numbers are fairly close all the way to 20 and applying flat footed gives your other party members more damage.

Also I am playing with an Envoy but even if he is clever attacking I can put the target off-kilter lowering it's DPR or apply any of the other many debilitations as needed.


I've made some modifications to my character. Think I'm finally ready for my campaign that starts on Sunday! I decided to go Outlaw instead of Themeless due to another party member going Star Shaman Mystic so he'll cover piloting and mysticism. Also switched my gun and some other minor equipment changes.

Level 1 Stats, Skills, and Equipment:

Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Outlaw
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Culture (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (10), Survival (7).
Gear: Tactical Semi-Auto Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kits (Engineering, Hacking, Navigator's, Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Credstick with 169 credits. (2 bulk)

I also started planning out my exploits and feats. Open to suggestions here.

Operative Exploits and Feats Plan:

Unlisted feats would come from Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Enhanced Resistance, Toughness, Fleet, Improved Initiative, Versatile Focus, Mobility, and Shot on the Run.

1 - Great Fortitude
2 - Uncanny Mobility
3 - Spellbane
4 - Field Treatment / Holographic Clone / Combat Trick
5 - Cloaking Field (Ghost), Sky Jockey
6 - Staggering Shot
7 - Weapon Focus (Small Arms)
8 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed
9 - Feat
10 - Stunning Shot
11 - Feat
12 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
13 - Feat
14 - Knockout Shot
15 - Feat
16 - Multiattack Mastery
17 - Feat
18 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
19 - Feat
20 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion

Out of curiousity I wanted to see how Trick Attack compared to Full Attack at each Trick Attack breakpoint. In this analysis I used the best available projectile small arm for each breakpoint as they have the highest average damage. All numbers are in average damage per round assuming all shots hit.

I don't have enough statistics knowledge to model the 2-4 shots in a full attack at a -4 to hit vs a trick attack at an effective +2 to hit. Assuming everything hits it is always more damage to full attack at level 1 and 8-20.

Trick Attack vs Full Attack:

01 - TA:6 (1d6+1d4) FA:7 (2d6)
03 - TA:9 (1d6+1d8+1) FA:9 (2d6+2) *Specialization Starts*
05 - TA:22.5 (2d6+3d8+2) FA:16 (4d6+4)
07 - TA:28 (2d6+4d8+3) FA:20 (4d6+6)
08 - TA:29 (2d6+4d8+4) FA:33 (6d6+12) *Triple Attack Starts*
09 - TA:37 (3d6+5d8+4) FA:43.5 (9d6+12)
11 - TA:42.5 (3d6+6d8+5) FA:46.5 (9d6+15)
13 - TA:51.5 (4d6+7d8+6) FA:80 (16d6+24) *Quad Attack Starts*
15 - TA 62.5 (3d12+8d8+7) FA:106 (12d12+28)
17 - TA:74.5 (4d12+9d8+8) FA:136 (16d12+32)
19 - TA:86.5 (5d12+10d8+9) FA:166 (20d12+36)
20 - TA:87.5 (5d12+10d8+10) FA:170 (20d12+40)

In light of the above analysis I'm trying to evaluate Mobility and Shot on the Run versus other feats. With operative's high movement you could move around the battlefield flanking and trick attacking while ending your movement in cover. The problem is you can't get shot on the run until level 7 due to the +4 BAB requirement and you get Triple Shot at level 8 which is when full attacking becomes more appealing.


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I think you can take 20 on treat deadly wounds. There are two other actions for medicine (First Aid and Long Term Care) that specifically say you cannot take 20 on those checks. The rest of the medicine actions don't have that language. This is pretty consistent throughout the whole skills chapter.


I've thought a bit more about feat and exploit progression. I feel pretty locked in through level 7 for feats. After that I'd pick from Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Enhanced Resistance, Toughness, Fleet, Improved Initiative, and Versatile Focus.

I'm interested in people's thoughts between Field Treatment and Holographic Clone. Negating up to 4 hits seems good but you could end up just getting one image and then still getting still hit every time. Field treatment heals 12 HP at level 4 which is a little less than half and seems to scale consistently to about half your HP through level 20 but it costs a reserve point to use.

1 - Great Fortitude
2 - Uncanny Mobility
3 - Spellbane
4 - Field Treatment / Holographic Clone
5 - Cloaking Field (Ghost), Sky Jockey
6 - Staggering Shot
7 - Weapon Focus (Small Arms)
8 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed
9 - Feat
10 - Stunning Shot
11 - Feat
12 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
13 - Feat
14 - Knockout Shot
15 - Feat
16 - Multiattack Mastery
17 - Feat
18 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
19 - Feat
20 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion


Yeah the 16 Dex ultimately gets you +4 Charisma at level 20 at a cost of being slightly weaker for all your dex based checks. Operative is just so Dex based I feel like the 18 Dex is worth it. I've got an Envoy in my group that will handle most of the face skills but if you wanted to be even more well rounded I think the 9/16/10/16/10/12 array is fine.

I plan on getting Mk 3 Dex, Mk 2 Int, Mk 1 Con augments so at 20 I'd either have:

9/28/20/24/18/12
or
9/26/20/24/18/16

For me I'd rather have +1 to Dex checks instead of +2 to Cha checks but I think it's just preference and not huge either way. Most people's campaigns never get to 20 anyway.

I think using a feat on improved unarmed strike isn't optimal because you could easily just hold any operative weapon in your offhand and get the same benefit with higher hit chance but if it goes with your character's theme then go for it!


I've started planning this out but I'm still undecided on a lot of it. Almost all the feats have no prequisites so they can be taken in any order.

1 - Great Fortitude
2 - Uncanny Mobility
3 - Deadly Aim
4 - Field Treatment / Holographic Clone
5 - Cloaking Field (Ghost), Sky Jockey (for better flight speed, Jetpacks come at level 5 too)
6 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed / Staggering Shot
7 - Weapon Focus (Small Arms)
8 - Bleeding Shot / Sure Footed / Staggering Shot
9 - Spellbane
10 - Stunning Shot
11 - Iron Will
12 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
13 - Lightning Reflexes
14 - Knockout Shot
15 - Toughness
16 - Multiattack Mastery
17 - Fleet
18 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion
19 - Improved Initiative
20 - Glimpse the Truth / Versatile Movement / Deactivating Shot / Improved Evasion


Ecliptic12 wrote:

Build looks pretty good, but why not just go priest over themeless? Still get mysticism as a class skill and get lowered dcs when using it or culture to recall related things... instead of a +2 bonus for a skill check, you can get bonuses to diplomacy intimidation when dealing with clergy... and they are likely to help you

At 12 you get a level 1 spell like ability over the random refill, and at 18 you gain a way to regain resolve instead of just increasing your pool.

Can just be a priest of something related to what u want to do with the operative (i.e. assassination or such, and your clergy dear you, etc.). It can be a philosophy or diety... so you can just be a member of a sect of thieves or assassin's or whatever, with a specific philosophy

Yeah I thought about being a priest of Besmara or Triune or Lao Shu Po. I think if you worshipped Triune you'd probably get the most benefit out of the clergy related abilities but I really have no idea and it's probably campaign specific. The priest abilities just seemed really niche and the more universal Themeless abilities seemed like they'd come up more often. Priest theme definitely presents more roleplaying opportunities. Could go for a Thane Krios (Mass Effect) vibe.

I did take a look at the level 1 mystic abilities but nothing really stuck out to me. Maybe Charm Person, Command, Mystic Cure, or Remove Lesser Condition but at level 12 I'm not sure how useful these would really be. Our DC with a 14 Wisdom would only be 13 (10+1+2) so I doubt we'd ever succeed. Could go for the Spellbane feat for +2 saves against spells instead if you're themeless.


I had a thread where operative optimization was discussed: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uk60?Operative-Optimization

TLDR this is what I decided to go with. If you're wondering about Mysticism I wanted to maximize disarming magical traps as well as normal traps from engineering.

Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Themeless (Str and Mysticism)
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Mysticism (5), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (9), Survival (7).
Gear: Azimuth Laser Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Personal Comm Unit, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kit (Disguise), Tool Kit (Engineering), Tool Kit (Hacking), Tool Kit (Navigator's), Tool Kit (Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Starstone Compass, Credstick with 29 credits. (2 bulk)

For leveling up I plan on boosting Dex 4x, Int 3x, Con 4x, Wis 4x, and Cha 1x.


Also I just realized looking at HWalsh's skills Solarians can be good trap spotters and disablers. Since you'll probably be in front this can come in handy. Engineering for physical traps, Mysticism for magical traps, Perception to see traps before you step on them, and a Trapsmith Tool Kit to get +4 to checks to disable traps. Not too shabby.


MagicA wrote:
Also does crafting reduce weapon cost at all or no?

No but it does have some advantages. Pg 235:

Rather than buying mass-produced, mass-marketed equipment, characters with the right skills can construct their own equipment. This takes time, and due to the economies of scale enjoyed by multisystem corporations and shops with dedicated construction machines and drones, it does not save you any money. However, it allows you to acquire exactly what you need, as long as you can meet the construction requirements.

...

Custom-built equipment has a few advantages over mass produced items. If you have a skill that allows you to repair an item you crafted, you can do so in half the normal time. When determining the hardness, Hit Points, and saving throws of an item you have crafted, treat its item level as if it were 2 higher.


HWalsh wrote:
...

That is a really good build and explanation HWalsh but you have 7 stats in your array and final stats. May want to correct that.


Hard to go wrong with Stellar Rush, Plasma Sheath, and Corona.


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After taking everything into consideration I think I'll make my first operative like this:

Race: Ysoki
Class: Operative (Ghost)
Theme: Themeless (Str and Mysticism)
Stats: Str 9, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Initiative: 5
Health and Resolve: SP 6, HP 8, RP 5
Armor: 15 EAC, 16 KAC
Saves: Fortitude 2, Reflex 6, Will 2
Feats: Great Fortitude
Skills: Acrobatics (11) and Stealth (13) from specialization. Other 11 ranks in: Athletics (4), Bluff (5), Computers (8), Engineering (10), Medicine (8), Mysticism (5), Perception (5), Piloting (9), Sense Motive (5), Sleight of Hand (9), Survival (7).
Gear: Azimuth Laser Pistol, Second Skin, Industrial Backpack, Battery, Personal Comm Unit, Mk1 Healing Serum, Everyday Clothing, Tool Kit (Disguise), Tool Kit (Engineering), Tool Kit (Hacking), Tool Kit (Navigator's), Tool Kit (Trapsmith), Basic Medkit, Titanium Alloy Cable (50 ft), Starstone Compass, Credstick with 29 credits. (2 bulk)


Assuming 28 Dex, 22 Int, and 18 Wis Ghost with the +4 is only 1 point above Explorer and 3 above Hacker. If you remove the +4 from Ghost it would become the third highest trick attack spec (tied with Daredevil and Thief.)

Explorer gets the +4 to survival at level 11 and the +4 survival to trick attacks. Int is most likely going to be most operatives second highest stat which boosts the Hacker spec.

It's not as imbalanced as it may appear. Also at level 20 you only need a 30 in your trick attack skill to always succeed against a 20 CR (taking 10). You can achieve this with any specialization even if your ability score is 8. I analyzed all the specializations here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uk60?Operative-Optimization#13


Erk Ander wrote:
Your math is pretty much correct. Several of us have done it and come to the same conclution.

Are there other threads or websites where the math is being done? I'd love to take a look!


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Assuming 28 Dex (18 start, boosted every 5 levels, mk3 enhancer) and using the highest average damage weapons in the core rulebook.

Operative:
Gyrojet pistol, elite 715,800
+26 to hit, 4 attacks at +22 (or +23 if you can afford two of these pistols and multi-weapon fighting)
5d12+10 = 42.5 average = 170 damage if all 4 hit
OR
5d12+10+10d8 = 87.5 trick attack (plus debilitions)

Soldier:
Seeker rifle, paragon 809,200
+30 to hit, 3 attacks at +25
12d8+20+6+2d6 = 87 average = 261 damage if all 3 hit
(Bullet Barrage +6 damage, Sharpshoot Focus Fire +1 to hit, Sharpshoot Focused Damage +2d6)

Solarian:
Seeker rifle, paragon 809,200
+30 to hit, 3 attacks at +24
12d8+20+4 = 77 average = 231 if all 3 hit
(Photon Mode +4 damage)

Ultimate DPR ranking would be Solarian (melee avg 315 / ranged avg 231), Soldier (melee avg 297 / ranged avg 261), Operative (ranged avg 170 / melee avg 168) (or trick attack for 87.5 ranged / 87 melee)

I'm really curious if I messed up any math or missed any bonuses. In any case it looks like Operative gets out damaged by the two full base attack bonus classes due to the worse weapons and half level specialization bonus to damage. If they had full weapon specialization damage they would average 210 which is still below the other two. Wonder if that will ever be revisited. If these numbers are right we can safely dump STR on the Operative which will increase either Con for Fort save or Cha for skills.

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