Using some of the advice from the thread on tactically interesting melee builds, I'm getting excited about a reach brawler. By gaining combat maneuver feats on-the-fly and being able to fight either close or at reach, the goal is to be a "melee Swiss army knife".
Here's my prospective build so far. I'd appreciate any suggestions to make it more interesting and powerful, and would definitely like to hear what feats you might suggest to grab as-needed with Martial Flexibility.
(Feats in italics are likely feats for Martial Flexibility)
str 18, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 12, cha 8
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double-chained kama), Dirty Fighting, Martial Flexibility (Power Attack/Combat Reflexes/Improved Combat Maneuver)
2: Improved Trip, Martial Flexibility (Ki Throw)
3: Combat Reflexes, Martial Flexibility (Vicious Stomp)
4:
5: Weapon Focus (double-chained kama), Weapon Specialization (double-chained kama)
6: Martial Flexibility II (Lunge, Greater Combat Maneuver)
7: Greater Trip
8: Greater Weapon Focus (double-chained kama)
Various tactics would include:
A) Use your reach to get AoOs
B) Use Ki Throw to throw an enemy prone into a pack of your allies (or any other square within your 10-foot reach)
C) Gain combat maneuvers on-the-fly to neutralize threats
D) Get adjacent to casters, then use readied attack action to disrupt their spells (their 5-foot-step does nothing since you have reach)
E) Use Lunge and Ki Throw to combine A and B
F) Gain Power Attack and flurry two-handed for some nice damage
Obviously this is best vs large or smaller creatures w/o reach, but it should do reasonable damage even vs huge foes. But I'm curious to hear suggestions - I feel like as a brawler the opportunities for cool tactics are wide open!
Remember you also get Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, TWF at 2nd, Imp TWF at 8th. This matters for prereqs - you might sometimes pick up Dragon Style to deal with difficult terrain, or Wolf Style to help with battlefield control, etc. If you're willing to drop Cha to 7 then having Wis 13 may help with other prereqs for style feats especially.
Poised Bearing is something you'll need to trip Huge enemies unless you can get to Large size somehow (and then you'll need it if you want to try to trip Gargantuan enemies...).
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Dirty fighting feat seems quite powerful. You could take greater reposition, greater trip, greater bull rush without all their prerequisites.
Are you sure your GM will allow that?
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Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites."
Remember you also get Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st, TWF at 2nd, Imp TWF at 8th. This matters for prereqs - you might sometimes pick up Dragon Style to deal with difficult terrain, or Wolf Style to help with battlefield control, etc. If you're willing to drop Cha to 7 then having Wis 13 may help with other prereqs for style feats especially.
Poised Bearing is something you'll need to trip Huge enemies unless you can get to Large size somehow (and then you'll need it if you want to try to trip Gargantuan enemies...).
I was VERY tempted by Wolf Trip (mostly from the image: someone charges me, so I chuck my kama and wrap it around their leg, then yank them 15 feet to land prone behind me.) But that requires investing in 15 Wis, which is a pretty steep price. I suppose I could buy up to 13 Wis and then get a headband by level 6. I'm not really sure which other style feats require high Wis, if there's another good one it could definitely be worth it.
As for Poised Bearing, thank you for bringing that to me attention! I didn't even know that (and Imposing Bearing existed.) But, is there any way to access them without taking three fighter levels for the Armor Training prereq?
Dirty fighting feat seems quite powerful. You could take greater reposition, greater trip, greater bull rush without all their prerequisites.
Are you sure your GM will allow that?"....
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites."
To clarify, it doesn't count as having the Improved Combat Maneuver feats themselves (to qualify you for Greater X,) it only counts as Dex13/Int13/Combat Expertise/IUS. So to gain Greater Bull Rush, for example, I might not get it until Martial Flexibility III, since I'm not currently planning on taking Power Attack or Improved Bull Rush as permanent feats. (Although maybe I should try to squeeze in Power Attack...)
Also, I just found out that Tactical Reposition is a thing, which is awesome! Combine with a friendly wizard to drag enemies into all sorts of nasty pits and deadly spell effects. And to clarify, for Bull Rush there is never any prohibition on Bull Rushing someone off a cliff so long as there is no "solid object or obstacle" in the way, is that correct?
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Hi RumpinRufus
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites,as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
I read the bolded part, as you can take for example greater trip without improved trip. Why do you think that is not the case ?
I've been kicking around an idea for a reach Brawler for a while. My plan was to use Weapon Adept (Versatile Design) to gain automatic proficiency with a Fauchard modified via Versatile Design to be in the Close weapon group, then use it with Outslug Style.
I've been kicking around an idea for a reach Brawler for a while. My plan was to use Weapon Adept (Versatile Design) to gain automatic proficiency with a Fauchard modified via Versatile Design to be in the Close weapon group, then use it with Outslug Style.
Whoa! Cool idea, I didn't know about Versatile Design and Weapon Adept. Flurrying with a d10 reach weapon with an 18-20 crit multiplier would be super deadly! Unfortunately it looks like PFS bans Versatile Design though, and I'm hoping to use this as a PFS character.
Hi RumpinRufus
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
I read the bolded part, as you can take for example greater trip without improved trip. Why do you think that is not the case ?
The bolded part means that for example, even though Greater Trip requires Int 13, you can use Dirty Fighting to count as having Int 13 for it (since it has Improved Trip as a prereq.) If the bolded part were removed, then you would count as having Int 13 to take Improved Trip, but you would not be able to take Greater Trip because you don't have Int 13.
Brawler and Spear Dancing Spiral is a great combo, since it allows you to use any polearm with Brawler's Flurry - which means that you're always attacking with the weapon normally, in two hands, even though using "TWF". Wielding the weapon two-handed instead of as a double weapon means that you don't lose reach and brace; if you need to temporarily lose reach, you can 'wield it as a double weapon' with Brawler's Flurry, which would still involve all attacks being made with the pointy end, but one-handed.
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I've been kicking around an idea for a reach Brawler for a while. My plan was to use Weapon Adept (Versatile Design) to gain automatic proficiency with a Fauchard modified via Versatile Design to be in the Close weapon group, then use it with Outslug Style.Whoa! Cool idea, I didn't know about Versatile Design and Weapon Adept. Flurrying with a d10 reach weapon with an 18-20 crit multiplier would be super deadly! Unfortunately it looks like PFS bans Versatile Design though, and I'm hoping to use this as a PFS character.
The bolded part means that for example, even though Greater Trip requires Int 13, you can use Dirty Fighting to count as having Int 13 for it (since it has Improved Trip as a prereq.) If the bolded part were removed, then you would count as having Int 13 to take Improved Trip, but you would not be able to take Greater Trip because you don't have Int 13.Hi RumpinRufus
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
I read the bolded part, as you can take for example greater trip without improved trip. Why do you think that is not the case ?
Ah I see your point now. Thanks.
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'Characters who lack the armor training class feature can access armor mastery feats by taking the Armor Focus feat,' so from 6th level you should be able to grab Armor Focus and Poised Bearing via martial flexibility.
On other feats with a wis prereq - panther style/claw may be useful sometimes, perfect style gives you a little energy resistance, you may even want monkey style/moves occasionally. Dazing fist is worse than stunning fist due to the condition being weaker, but it does become available earlier.
'Characters who lack the armor training class feature can access armor mastery feats by taking the Armor Focus feat,' so from 6th level you should be able to grab Armor Focus and Poised Bearing via martial flexibility.
On other feats with a wis prereq - panther style/claw may be useful sometimes, perfect style gives you a little energy resistance, you may even want monkey style/moves occasionally. Dazing fist is worse than stunning fist due to the condition being weaker, but it does become available earlier.
That is great, did not know about Armor Focus either! I would still need medium or heavy armor proficiency, but that wouldn't be a bad thing to have anyway. I was considering a dip into Steelblood Bloodrager - extra survivability from the heavy armor, get rage, a bloodline, and a nice +1 to CMB to boot.
Apologies for bump - just reached level 3 and now I just need to decide if I want to multiclass into Steelblood Bloodrager.
In the past I've generally regretted multiclassing - are the pluses (rage, heavy armor, +1 CMB, +1d6 fire damage 3 rounds/day) worth the downsides (20ft movement, armor check penalty, delayed Brawler progression)?
Currently I'm at level 2, and my feats are Dirty Fighting, Improved Trip, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double-chained kama.)
If you want to be tripping things, the overall +3 from rage (including Furious weapon) is really very useful. But why take heavy armor when that just ends up canceling out the Brawler's dodge bonuses? Those AC bonuses work with mithral medium armor, so going heavy seems like a waste - especially when you would need a mithral fullplate to keep all your DEX bonus anyhow.
For Bloodrager archetypes, Urban Bloodrager lets you keep your AC in a rage at the cost of not fiddling with CON, so it's often a very handy rage dip.
Edit: It's stating the obvious, but if you're going to dip for rage, spend a feat (or two down the line) on Extra Rage. Just one will double your rounds/day to 12. Might as well have enough to really use it.
My final array is Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10. So my current AC is only 15 with a chain shirt. At level 4 that would go to AC 16 with the brawler bonus, and at level 9 it would go to AC 17. Whereas if I bought a full plate I could have AC 20 at level 3.
As for using mithral medium armor, I would still need to get proficiency somehow, which means spending a feat or multiclassing. If I understand correctly, you're saying take Urban Bloodrager instead of Steelhound and eventually pick up a mithral agile breastplate, so I can move at 40 ft and still get the brawler AC bonus? That does actually sound really nice.
My final array is Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10. So my current AC is only 15 with a chain shirt. At level 4 that would go to AC 16 with the brawler bonus, and at level 9 it would go to AC 17. Whereas if I bought a full plate I could have AC 20 at level 3.
As for using mithral medium armor, I would still need to get proficiency somehow, which means spending a feat or multiclassing. If I understand correctly, you're saying take Urban Bloodrager instead of Steelhound and eventually pick up a mithral agile breastplate, so I can move at 40 ft and still get the brawler AC bonus? That does actually sound really nice.
Bloodrager grants medium armor proficiency. Or without proficiency, a mithral Kikko has no armor check penalty, and a mithral breastplate has no armor check penalty with the Armor Expert trait.
Is there a pfs way to do a reach brawler?
Bloodrager grants medium armor proficiency. Or without proficiency, a mithral Kikko has no armor check penalty, and a mithral breastplate has no armor check penalty with the Armor Expert trait.My final array is Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10. So my current AC is only 15 with a chain shirt. At level 4 that would go to AC 16 with the brawler bonus, and at level 9 it would go to AC 17. Whereas if I bought a full plate I could have AC 20 at level 3.
As for using mithral medium armor, I would still need to get proficiency somehow, which means spending a feat or multiclassing. If I understand correctly, you're saying take Urban Bloodrager instead of Steelhound and eventually pick up a mithral agile breastplate, so I can move at 40 ft and still get the brawler AC bonus? That does actually sound really nice.
Steelhound doesn't gain medium armor proficiency (only heavy armor proficiency,) but another archetype or vanilla could gain medium armor proficiency. I'll have to think on that. My traits are locked at this point though.
Is there a pfs way to do a reach brawler?
Yeah, this is a PFS character. You just need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the double-chained kama, kasurigama, or kyoketsu shoge in order to have a reach weapon that can be flurried with.