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So, long time PFS player, looking at ability scores and credits, I feel like there just isn't enough. Meanwhile Equipment feels unattainable.
I know pathfinder is a different system, but I can't help but draw similarities between the systems, and I decided to make a comparison.
Abilities:
So in starfinder If I build a Human with a Mercenary background I can spend my 10 points to get a build of 16 16 11 10 10 10.
If I build a human in pathfinder using the 20pt buy of PFS I can get
16 16 11 10 10 10 and have 4 points remaining.
In comparison to pathfinder, you abilities are noticeably gimped.
Credits: So a lvl 1 character gets a starting wealth of 1,000 credits in SFS, this seemed really low to me in comparison to the price of equipment. so I took the price of a long sword in both SF and PF and compared them.
Based of this comparison 1 GP = 25 credits, meaning that SFS characters start with an equivalent of 40 GP in credits to buy equipment.
In comparison to pathfinder you start with 1/3 the purchasing power.
Equipment: Not only are things expensive, the level limitations feel harsh. You can buy equipment out of the Core Rule Book that has an item level equal to character level +1. meaning at level 1, you can only buy up to level 2 items. This wouldn't be so bad, but a standard long sword is a level 2 item. Past that, there doesn't seem to be too much that's worth purchasing with an item level of less than 5. To me it just feels like you have no access to better equipment until character level 4.
Anyone else feel crippled when coming from PF to SF?
Disclaimer: I have not had the chance to play any SF and am basing this entirely on how limited I felt in character creation. This is not a complaint about the new system, and I am certain that Paizo has balanced the game the way they wish for it to be balanced. This is only a question of am I the only one that feels like SF characters are much weaker than PF characters.
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and while you don't have quite as good scores at level one, the ability growth change means you're better off at level 5.
That's kind of my point. I just see no room for improving your character beyond a marginal amount between lvl 1 and lvl 5. meaning you're roughly the same power level at lvl 1 as lvl 4, but could potentially run into much more powerful enemies at lvl 4. On top of that you're less powerful than a pathfinder character of equivalent lvl until your lvl 5 power spike when you get a large bump in ability scores and access to level 6 equipment
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It's a very different game, judging it by the same standards is gonna be distinctly odd.
You also have HP+Stm way higher than your HP as a 1st level character in Pathfinder, and as you level, your stats wind up way better. 25 point-buy or more equivalent by 5th level (your above listed stats become 18, 18, 13, 12, 10, 10 at that point, for example), and much higher than that as time goes on.
EDIT:
That's kind of my point. I just see no room for improving your character beyond a marginal amount between lvl 1 and lvl 5. meaning you're roughly the same power level at lvl 1 as lvl 4, but could potentially run into much more powerful enemies at lvl 4. On top of that you're less powerful than a pathfinder character of equivalent lvl until your lvl 5 power spike when you get a large bump in ability scores and access to level 6 equipment
Huh?
A 1st level Soldier has +4 to +6 to hit for 1d8 damage.
A 4th level Soldier has +7 to +9 to hit for 1d10+4 damage (or so). That's more than double the damage and he probably has three times the HP+Stm.
And that's just the simplest one, several other classes get other, better, stuff over those levels. Level 3 with Weapon Specialization is at least as much a breakpoint in power as level 5.
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You only feel underpowered because you are trying to apply pathfinder math.
Let's take the goblin (CR 1/3) for comparison:
Pathfinder Goblin:
AC 16, touch 13, CMD 12.
HP 6, Init +6.
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will -1
Melee: +2 (1d4/19-20)
Range: +4 (1d4/x4)
Starfinder Goblin:
KAC 12, EAC: 11, KAC vs maneuvers 20.
HP 6, Init +3.
Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
Melee +0 (1d4)
Ranged: +2 (1d4, crit burn 1d4)
As you can see he got way easier to hit: 12 vs 16.
He also hits less often, as there's a +2 advantage to the pathfinder goblin on both accounts.
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You only feel underpowered because you are trying to apply pathfinder math.
Let's take the goblin (CR 1/3) for comparison:
Pathfinder Goblin:
AC 16, touch 13, CMD 12.
HP 6, Init +6.
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will -1
Melee: +2 (1d4/19-20)
Range: +4 (1d4/x4)Starfinder Goblin:
KAC 12, EAC: 11, KAC vs maneuvers 20.
HP 6, Init +3.
Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
Melee +0 (1d4)
Ranged: +2 (1d4, crit burn 1d4)As you can see he got way easier to hit: 12 vs 16.
He also hits less often, as there's a +2 advantage to the pathfinder goblin on both accounts.
This is what I'm hoping for. That enemies are also similarly lower in power than pathfinder equivalents. Thanks for pointing this out, makes me feel a bit better.
Yes, SF at levels 1-2 is even worse than D&D/PF. 3 gets a bump, but it is still a hard slog to new equipment and a fully functional character at 5.
And at that point, you run into the fundamental economic problem that everything is significantly overpriced for fairly marginal improvement until about 11th level, at which point both cost and .
At lower levels, the equipment list is pretty crazy. Some 'upgrades' are worse than armor or weapons several ilevels and several thousand credits cheaper.
Armor is pretty much the best for baffling traps. Several armors have max dex bonuses unachievable at the level you can buy the armors, and you're paying for it, since several are worse in AC than lower level armors. But you can't have a dex bonus that high- it is flat out impossible with the chargen system, unless you're getting your +4 enhancer several levels early.
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It's a very different game, judging it by the same standards is gonna be distinctly odd.
You also have HP+Stm way higher than your HP as a 1st level character in Pathfinder, and as you level, your stats wind up way better. 25 point-buy or more equivalent by 5th level (your above listed stats become 18, 18, 13, 12, 10, 10 at that point, for example), and much higher than that as time goes on.
I get that it is a different game, and acknoledge that that is why it feels odd to me, true that HP+Stm is way higher, soldier with 10-11 con is 18-20 hp+Stm while fighter is at ~ 14 hp because you can have a higher con with same other stats but with healing more readily accessible in pathfinder, this doesn't fell like a large enough gap to me.
EDIT:
That's kind of my point. I just see no room for improving your character beyond a marginal amount between lvl 1 and lvl 5. meaning you're roughly the same power level at lvl 1 as lvl 4, but could potentially run into much more powerful enemies at lvl 4. On top of that you're less powerful than a pathfinder character of equivalent lvl until your lvl 5 power spike when you get a large bump in ability scores and access to level 6 equipmentHuh?
A 1st level Soldier has +4 to +6 to hit for 1d8 damage.
A 4th level Soldier has +7 to +9 to hit for 1d10+4 damage (or so). That's more than double the damage and he probably has three times the HP+Stm.
And that's just the simplest one, several other classes get other, better, stuff over those levels. Level 3 with Weapon Specialization is at least as much a breakpoint in power as level 5.
Where are you pulling these numbers from? I get the bonus to hit increases because bab, you get weapon specialization at 3rd for a bit more damage, but the way I'm reading it,
my soldiermelee lvl 1: +5 to hit d8+3 dmg.
melee lvl 4: +8-9 to hit d8+4-5 dmg.
ranged lvl 1: +5 hit d6 dmg
ranged lvl 4 +8-9 hit d6+1-2 dmg.
Where are you pulling these numbers from? I get the bonus to hit increases because bab, you get weapon specialization at 3rd for a bit more damage, but the way I'm reading it,
my soldier
melee lvl 1: +5 to hit d8+3 dmg.
melee lvl 4: +8-9 to hit d8+4-5 dmg.
ranged lvl 1: +5 hit d6 dmg
ranged lvl 4 +8-9 hit d6+1-2 dmg.
Huh?
Weapon specialization.Given level 4, your melee damage should go from d8+3 to d8 +7 (3 str and 4 weapon specialization). Possibly more with right gear trick. (melee striker)
Ranged damage would be d6 (not sure why you're using a d6 weapon, d8 rifles are readily available for soldiers), +4 for weapon specialization, +2 from bullet barrage, so d8+6. 1d10+6 is easily achievable if you jump over to heavy projectile weapons.
Weapon Specialization gives your level in damage to the weapon. It is gained at 3rd level.
So
melee level 1: longsword +5 (d8+3)
melee level 4: longsword +8 (d8+3+4)
Above is assuming you didn't buy the first personal upgrade. Mk 1 upgrade is level 3 and 1400 credits, about what you would earn in two adventures.
Anyone else feel crippled when coming from PF to SF?
I have been playing table top games for over 10 years and the character creation seems fine. I come from games that say you can only increase ability scores every 4 lvls and you can only choose 1 to increase. Starfinder lets you increase 4 with the ability to increase those abilities by 2! That blew my mind.
At lvl 1 you really only need to start out with a weapon, armor and a couple extra items. I mean the game typically gives you a fully functioning ship as well! Also take into consideration that the better loot you have the better the enemies items will be. I don't want to go against a Heavy Laser mini-gun my first game because I decides to buy a high-end sword for my lvl 1 character.
I see these threads start up typically when people don't read the whole book. In the equipment chapter there is a section about augmentations. The game gives you the opportunity to be as OP as you want to be.
Anyone else feel crippled when coming from PF to SF?
No. Slight differences in plus and minus at first level hardly makes someone "crippled." There is different math and bonuses are flatter in SF. Not being mathematically perfect compared to a different set of rules is not "crippled," it is different.
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I get that it is a different game, and acknoledge that that is why it feels odd to me, true that HP+Stm is way higher, soldier with 10-11 con is 18-20 hp+Stm while fighter is at ~ 14 hp because you can have a higher con with same other stats but with healing more readily accessible in pathfinder, this doesn't fell like a large enough gap to me.
Healing isn't really more readily accessible in Pathfinder. Mystic has healing on par with an Oracle (at least at low levels), potions are available at the same price, and you can self heal all Stm at least a couple of times a day. That's more available if anything.
Where are you pulling these numbers from? I get the bonus to hit increases because bab, you get weapon specialization at 3rd for a bit more damage, but the way I'm reading it,
my soldier
melee lvl 1: +5 to hit d8+3 dmg.
melee lvl 4: +8-9 to hit d8+4-5 dmg.
ranged lvl 1: +5 hit d6 dmg
ranged lvl 4 +8-9 hit d6+1-2 dmg.
As others note, Weapon Specialization adds your full level to damage. So...that should be d8+7 melee and d6+4 ranged at 4th.
Except is should actually be a little more than that, since by 4th you can get better weapons than that. More like 1d10 melee and 1d8 ranged.
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From what I've heard rumors of behind the scenes (and these are just rumors mind you), PAIZO was VERY put off by how pathfinder works, especially in the high levels.
Part 1: Power level/ability scores
The problem (again, from the rumors I've heard) is that it was too easy to get superpowerful, and then monsters weren't a challenge. Either that or they killed you instantly through 'cheap tactics' that players disliked. The easy way to solve this was to simply de-power stuff so that normal encounters were harder.
Let's see, I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. Let's use some examples.
So we've all seen level 13 barbarians that can just cleave through people. Do 200+ damage a round with pounce, you name it. Their to-hit and damage output are comparable to most CR 16 creatures. Well the only way to counter that is to bring in a CR 16 creature. But CR 16 creatures have a LOT more abilities than a CR 13 creature. Abilities that a PC might not be able to counter.
So, in our example, let's say you have a party of CR 13 characters who are all power-gamy super broken. So you send them against a level 17 NPC wizard (CR 16) Wizard then just wishes the Barbarian into outer space. Barb dies. Barb doesn't have the magic items or the saves or whathaveyou to survive such a threat, but has the damage output to necessitate such threats, because anything else is too easy.
Easy solution is to make it so that characters aren't able to make such powerful characters.
Part 2: Equipment.
So, this is a problem I've had with pathfinder for a while, and it just seems like Starfinder is trying to fix it by using the sell back for 10% rule (instead of 50%). I think the idea in Pathfinder is that people need VERY SPECIFIC items to make builds work. Some characters NEED a rapier, or a scimitar, or a cloak of the montebank. And so, when you find treasure, 9 times out of 10 you just sell it and go to ye olde magic shop to buy the thing that you can actually use. I think PAIZO wants people to use the items they work for and find, instead of just treating the stuff they find as 'extra gold.'
Now, I played back in 2nd ed, and I remember it wasn't like that. If your first magic weapon was a magic dagger, you kept it. That might be the only way to hurt a ghost should you find ont. Sure, your fighter is better off with his longsword, but if you encounter a ghost, you bust out the dagger that you kept just in case. If you had a longsword fighter but came across a +2 battleaxe, you might switch to that axe because it was the best you had. And you know what, it felt WAY more satisfying knowing you were fighting with that +2 battleaxe that you took off of that corrupted Knight-commander than just some +2 longsword you purchased in a store. Plus it makes players consider making more versatile builds.
So those are just my two thoughts on the subject. You may disagree, and are free to do so, but I think that's what is up.
Can I ask you where did those rumors came from?
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I felt worried looking at the numbers on paper, but actually trying things out, we've been great! Fights are a much longer slog than in Pathfinder, but that's alright. It means there's time for cool cover-based repositioning tactics, or for our mechanic to break into their security system and turn the enemy defenses against them.
After a few hours the only class that still felt combat-weak in practice was our envoy, but she more-than pulled her weight (her negligible halfling weight, but still) out-of-combat (and in skill-based in-combat matters). After she was able to distract some guards long enough for us to stow away on a ship we were robbing, get herself onboard as the elven prince's guest of honor, then spent the whole robbery standing smugly among the enemy on their own bridge and manipulating them into making the worst tactical decisions they could make against the rest of us until it was time for her to get "taken hostage" by us and ensure our clean getaway, during which she assumed a natural captain roll and easily aided every one of our pilot and science officer's checks that she tried to aid... well, I don't doubt her out-of-combat and skill-based power.
(And hey, she was a nifty pseudo-healer too, with her ability to restore some of our SP in a pinch. Our soldier stayed conscious long enough to take down the vesk space-pirate captain thanks to her!)
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After a few hours the only class that still felt combat-weak in practice was our envoy, but she more-than pulled her weight (her negligible halfling weight, but still) out-of-combat (and in skill-based in-combat matters). After she was able to distract some guards long enough for us to stow away on a ship we were robbing, get herself onboard as the elven prince's guest of honor, then spent the whole robbery standing smugly among the enemy on their own bridge and manipulating them into making the worst tactical decisions they could make against the rest of us until it was time for her to get "taken hostage" by us and ensure our clean getaway, during which she assumed a natural captain roll and easily aided every one of our pilot and science officer's checks that she tried to aid...
That. Sounds. Awesome!
That. Sounds. Awesome!
It totally was!
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Can I ask you where did those rumors came from?
Bits and pieces from various sources over the years. Like I said it may not be true, I certainly don't take it as a hard fact. But the issue remains, there IS a certain problem in pathfinder with that sort of thing, and if Starfinder fixes the problem, I'm all for it. I, for one, miss the days where characters didn't HAVE to have a keen scimitar to function AT ALL, and could pick up a battleaxe that they found in a pinch.
As a GM, I'm always of the opinion that you should give the characters the stuff they need, but maybe not everything they WANT. So if the character NEEDS a next level weapon, but WANTS a plasma Doshko, Maybe they find a Devastation blade Instead.
Or, to put it more accurately, just because you build a Doshko guy doesn't mean you will conveniently find a Doshko every time you get to the next weapon tier. You might have to do with that Alien commander's Swoop hammer for a level or two.
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Anyone else feel crippled when coming from PF to SF?
I feel like there are a lot of things missing and am still trying to wrap my head around the world-building implications of some of the rules.
Quite frankly, much of the tech feels weak.
I was expecting a med lab that would be more on par with what we see on The Fifth Element. The rules in Starfinder make it sound less effective than current day hospitals and medical treatment.
Along side this slow healing technology is replacement of limbs that would be marvelous today. A brain jack that allows you to interface with a computer, no need for a HUD, data glove, or even the ancient keyboard and screen. How is it that they can provide a mechanical heart that works better than the original, but it still takes so long to recover from a simple gunshot wound?
UPBs allow you to basically print anything -- even food -- yet the best emergency med available are the Medpatch and Sprayflesh?
I am still disappointed by their creating a world where batteries are difficult and expensive to recharge. You actually have to worry about type of battery to be recharged, which creates logistical problems for any sort of large expedition. Doesn't seem like it would be any better than todays logistics.
Overall, it doesn't have as much of a high-tech feel to it as I was hoping for.
I think the lack of medical tech come more from the setting than some failing from the designers. The setting has really cheap magical healing when you think about it. 1d8 healing for 50 credits from a mk1 serum is actually a lot when you can't go into negatives. That's one week of work with a DC 25 profession check. Imagine if a week of work IRL could pay for medical bills like that.
Along side this slow healing technology is replacement of limbs that would be marvelous today. A brain jack that allows you to interface with a computer, no need for a HUD, data glove, or even the ancient keyboard and screen. How is it that they can provide a mechanical heart that works better than the original, but it still takes so long to recover from a simple gunshot wound?
That part I'm OK with, because healing is still healing; things like nanites could speed this up, but the body still needs time to grow the tissue itself and integrate it. What i might find unrealistic is healing time from cybernetic replacements for the rest of the body it's attached to.
Also keep in mind it's a universe that does depend on magic to a degree, so there might be some unevenness in tech development.