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Alright there's been a lot of debate about the damage numbers between the two classes, but no real math yet, so I decided to do some. I did something similar in another thread comparing Operative damage with small arms full attacks against sniper rifles and small arms full attacks against small arm trick attacks.
I've compared Soldier and Solarion damage at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 20th level against ACs 10-50. At each level increment I've compared a Solarion full attack against a Soldier full attack. The numbers I used for everything are on the first page and the green bars on the charts are where the expected AC of equal level enemies are. Also while it's not in the sheet, full attacking is always better than doing a single attack at all levels with either class. The results are that at 1st and 5th level the Soldier does more damage, but the Solarian does more at 10th, 15th and 20th level. That said the differences aren't all that big.
Comparison Sheet
Things to consider:
Solarion
-Has lower AC and SP due to needing to divert points from Dex and Con into Cha. They also need to take the Heavy Armor Proficiency feat to keep up their AC. Some Revelations are lackluster.
+Has better social skill bonuses. Has a lot of in-combat tricks to do other than full attacking also gains some out-of-combat utility.
Soldier
-Can't do much in combat other than attack. Has no out-of-combat utility. Feats don't make up for class features. Some fighting styles are lackluster.
+Has higher AC and SP since they don't need Cha. Gains a bunch of feats which can be used to shore up defenses(iron will, lightning reflexes, etc) and later may make feat trees/combos easier to get.
Let me know what you guys think and if I made any errors.
I think there are a couple things you missed (which I brought up way down in an earlier thread):
1. There's nothing stopping solarians from using soldier weapons. In fact, they often should. However, mathematically comparing advanced melee weapons to the solarian's solar weapon is instructive, because it brings out how solar weapon is behind the curve.
2. Assume item level = character level + 1; that's what you can typically buy (p. 167) and for your main weapon it's worth the cost. So, 10th level, the soldier should be using a 4d8 ultrathin longsword (11th level), at 15th, an 8d10 buzzsaw curve blade (16th level),* which gives the soldier an edge.
3. It's probably a good idea to assume the solarian has plasma sheath going.
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* in fact, the buzzsaw curve blade in particular is probably too damaging for its level (compare to the level 17 and 18 longswords) and suspect its damage may have been a misprint; 7d10 would fit the normal progression.
... and a couple more notes not directly about the math:
4. Solarians only need to make Cha their second-best stat if they take a lot of revelations with save DC's. Otherwise, they can advance Dex from 14, take solar armor, and save the feat. imo this is probably the best solarian build right now.
5. Soldiers, especially ranged soldiers, are better out of combat than you might think. Since they need at most 12 Str (14 at 10th) to use heavy weapons, and can certainly get by with less, they can advance Int as well as Dex, Con, and Wis, yielding a reasonable number of skill points.
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Ludovicus wrote: I think there are a couple things you missed (which I brought up way down in an earlier thread):
1. There's nothing stopping solarians from using soldier weapons. In fact, they often should. However, mathematically comparing advanced melee weapons to the solarian's solar weapon is instructive, because it brings out how solar weapon is behind the curve.
That's true but this is simply a damage comparison to demonstrate that the solar weapon can keep up just fine, and isn't "behind the curve".
Ludovicus wrote:
2. Assume item level = character level + 1; that's what you can typically buy (p. 167) and for your main weapon it's worth the cost. So, 10th level, the soldier should be using a 4d8 ultrathin longsword (11th level), at 15th, an 8d10 buzzsaw curve blade (16th level),* which gives the soldier an edge.
3. It's probably a good idea to assume the solarian has plasma sheath going.
Alright I made a new sheet with those changes. The results? The numbers fluctuate some but the overall results are the same, Soldier does more at 1st and 5th but Solarion does at 10th, 15th, and 20th.
Updated Sheet
Ludovicus wrote: ... and a couple more notes not directly about the math:
4. Solarians only need to make Cha their second-best stat if they take a lot of revelations with save DC's. Otherwise, they can advance Dex from 14, take solar armor, and save the feat. imo this is probably the best solarian build right now.
True, I just figured the Solarion would be using the ones with saves because those are fun things you can do. And again this is just to show that the Solar Weapon is just as good as a Soldier using a melee weapon.
Ludovicus wrote:
5. Soldiers, especially ranged soldiers, are better out of combat than you might think. Since they need at most 12 Str (14 at 10th) to use heavy weapons, and can certainly get by with less, they can advance Int as well as Dex, Con, and Wis, yielding a reasonable number of skill points.
Correct, but remember that going ranged lowers your damage. Also keep in mind that some revelations can do things that skills can't.
sunderedhero wrote: And again this is just to show that the Solar Weapon is just as good as a Soldier using a melee weapon. But is it as good as a solarian using a melee weapon?
Give the solarian the curve blade at 15th and 20th levels; you'll find it outdamages a solarian with solar weapon. That's all I'm saying.
Ludovicus wrote: sunderedhero wrote: And again this is just to show that the Solar Weapon is just as good as a Soldier using a melee weapon. But is it as good as a solarian using a melee weapon?
Give the solarian the curve blade at 15th and 20th levels; you'll find it outdamages a solarian with solar weapon. That's all I'm saying. True, going from solar weapon to curved blade increases average DPR at level 15 by 12.76 and at level 20 by 4.25. However the solar weapon is a one-handed weapon and the curved blade is two-handed, which lets the Solarian have a ranged weapon ready. The curved blade user would need to draw the weapon and then wouldn't threaten since they can't use the sword one-handed. Oh course if you're a Kasatha it's a moot point.
Hey sunderedhero, thanks for running the calculations for this. I suspected their math would match pretty well, as neither class has a clear edge in terms of bonuses to hit and damage, based on their class features.
I'd say another thing in the soldier's favor is that they can move and full attack with their melee weapon due to "Nimble Fusillade" under the Hit and Run style. The Solarion equivalent (Solar Acceleration) is available 4 levels later and requires you to be fully attuned to photon for each use. In a combat system where you can't even 5ft step and full attack, I think this is going to be a big deal.
Cellion wrote: Hey sunderedhero, thanks for running the calculations for this. I suspected their math would match pretty well, as neither class has a clear edge in terms of bonuses to hit and damage, based on their class features.
I'd say another thing in the soldier's favor is that they can move and full attack with their melee weapon due to "Nimble Fusillade" under the Hit and Run style. The Solarion equivalent (Solar Acceleration) is available 4 levels later and requires you to be fully attuned to photon for each use. In a combat system where you can't even 5ft step and full attack, I think this is going to be a big deal.
Just a note: Soldiers can't full attack on a charge until level 11, and then it's 2 attacks instead of the 3 they could get.
Cellion wrote:
I'd say another thing in the soldier's favor is that they can move and full attack with their melee weapon due to "Nimble Fusillade" under the Hit and Run style. The Solarion equivalent (Solar Acceleration) is available 4 levels later and requires you to be fully attuned to photon for each use. In a combat system where you can't even 5ft step and full attack, I think this is going to be a big deal.
A point in the Solarians favor in that exact comparison is that Solar Acceleration is not restricted to a half speed move or guarded step, so it is far more flexible. You can use any other move action (draw a weapon, use a move action Solarian power, etc). There's also the other half of the rules associated with Solar Acceleration which can make the rest of the party able to move and full attack for the rest of that combat.
I think the ability to move and full attack will be pretty common from 8th level onwards, as it can be found as a 3rd level spell effect and purchasable in equipment form. So non-Solar Acceleration Solarians can get the effect as well.
Cellion wrote: Hey sunderedhero, thanks for running the calculations for this. I suspected their math would match pretty well, as neither class has a clear edge in terms of bonuses to hit and damage, based on their class features.
I'd say another thing in the soldier's favor is that they can move and full attack with their melee weapon due to "Nimble Fusillade" under the Hit and Run style. The Solarion equivalent (Solar Acceleration) is available 4 levels later and requires you to be fully attuned to photon for each use. In a combat system where you can't even 5ft step and full attack, I think this is going to be a big deal.
The thing with "Nimble Fusillade" is that you'd need to take the Hit and Run style, compared to "Solar Acceleration" which any Solarion can pick up. Also as Hiruma Kai mentioned it has an additional effect that's really good, although you do need to wait till the fourth turn to activate it.
citricking wrote: Cellion wrote: Hey sunderedhero, thanks for running the calculations for this. I suspected their math would match pretty well, as neither class has a clear edge in terms of bonuses to hit and damage, based on their class features.
I'd say another thing in the soldier's favor is that they can move and full attack with their melee weapon due to "Nimble Fusillade" under the Hit and Run style. The Solarion equivalent (Solar Acceleration) is available 4 levels later and requires you to be fully attuned to photon for each use. In a combat system where you can't even 5ft step and full attack, I think this is going to be a big deal.
Just a note: Soldiers can't full attack on a charge until level 11, and then it's 2 attacks instead of the 3 they could get. That's only one of two options they have for making multiple attacks and moving, the one I mentioned is under the Hit and Run style rather than the Blitz style.
Hiruma Kai wrote: A point in the Solarians favor in that exact comparison is that Solar Acceleration is not restricted to a half speed move or guarded step, so it is far more flexible. You can use any other move action (draw a weapon, use a move action Solarian power, etc). There's also the other half of the rules associated with Solar Acceleration which can make the rest of the party able to move and full attack for the rest of that combat.
I think the ability to move and full attack will be pretty common from 8th level onwards, as it can be found as a 3rd level spell effect and purchasable in equipment form. So non-Solar Acceleration Solarians can get the effect as well.
Good point (and goes to show I'm still thinking from a Pathfinder perspective)! They really broadened access to full attacking while moving.
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I would like to identify a few problems with the solarian.
• Solarian Problem #1: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, with mandatory class features that key off melee attacks. Despite this, it starts with only light armor proficiency, and its solar armor can be used only in light armor (whether or not it works in powered armor is ambiguous). Therefore, right from the start, solar armor is a useless class feature, and a solarian is behooved to blow their 1st-level feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency.
465 credit hidden soldier armor might impose -5 speed, but it grants 2 more EAC and KAC than 460 credit kasatha microcord I.
2,970 credit lashunta ringwear II has 3 more EAC and 4 more KAC than a 2,980 credit D-suit I.
The difference only increases from there.
Solar armor can be vindicated by allowing it to work with powered armor, but that is currently a grey area in the rules.
• Solarian Problem #2: The solar weapon is all but useless from 1st to 5th level. It is much better for a solarian to pick up a tactical pike and avail of 1d8 damage and reach that can still target adjacent creatures. 1d6 damage is pathetic.
The solar weapon finally vindicates itself at 6th level as it finally attains 2d6 damage, which goes up to 2d6+1d4 (critical bleed 1d6) with a 3,050-credit least W-boson crystal. Hooray!
Unfortunately, by 9th level, the solar weapon reaches 3d6 damage, which rises to 5d6 (critical bleed 2d6) with a 26,200-credit lesser W-boson crystal. Meanwhile, an 18,100-credit ultrathin curve blade deals 3d10 damage (critical bleed 2d6), only 1 less on average, and is significantly more economical.
In other words, the solar weapon is totally useless at 1st to 5th level, fairly useful from 6th to 8th level, and back in the dumpster from 9th to 11th level. It flip-flops back and forth between "useless" and "good" depending on the level and the affordable weapons then. This is not a good sign for a class feature.
• Solarian Problem #3: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, yet its key ability modifier is Charisma. This means that a human, half-elf, or half-orc solarian is going to start with Strength 18 and Charisma 14, thereby screwing a solarian out of Resolve Points compared to a soldier. This also means that a solarian has no room for Dexterity, which would have improved their durability as a frontliner. In contrast, a human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier can easily have Strength 18 and Dexterity 14, giving them more Resolve Points, initiative, AC, Reflex, and ranged attack bonus. Skill bonuses are nice, but a frontliner has to actually survive over the course of the day.
• Solarian Problem #4: Both of the mandatory 1st-level revelations are not that good. They are very positioning-dependent, and a solarian can use them only during their third turn and onwards. By that time, there is absolutely no guarantee that the solarian will be in a good position to use Black Hole or Supernova. They require saving throws from a Charisma secondary class, and Black Hole is a dangerous proposition for a frontliner with middling EAC and KAC.
• Solarian Problem #5: There is a "one true build" for solarians from 2nd to 7th level, and that involves taking Stellar Rush at 2nd, Plasma Sheath at 4th, and Corona at 6th, always staying photon mode (extra damage beats a bonus to Reflex, obviously), and then completely ignoring Black Hole and Supernova. This results in raw melee mobility, damage, and counterdamage. Absolutely no other solarian build can compete with this. There is no reason to bother with any other photon revelations from 2nd to 7th level, let alone any graviton revelations from 2nd to 7th level. Yes, that means sucking up the fact that attunement now takes 4 points. It does not inspire much confidence in the class's design when it is clear that this one build outshines every other.
• Solarian Problem #6: Well, #5 is not necessarily true. Depending on how Blazing Orbit works, if the fire damage applies with each square a creature is forced into, it could very well be the solarian's greatest source of damage by 6th level. This could stand to be patched.
Is this assessment accurate?
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #1: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, with mandatory class features that key off melee attacks. Despite this, it starts with only light armor proficiency, and its solar armor can be used only in light armor (whether or not it works in powered armor is ambiguous). Therefore, right from the start, solar armor is a useless class feature, and a solarian is behooved to blow their 1st-level feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency.
465 credit hidden soldier armor might impose -5 speed, but it grants 2 more EAC and KAC than 460 credit kasatha microcord I.
2,970 credit lashunta ringwear II has 3 more EAC and 4 more KAC than a 2,980 credit D-suit I.
The difference only increases from there.
Solar armor can be vindicated by allowing it to work with powered armor, but that is currently a grey area in the rules.
Agreed, it's similar to it being a very good idea for the Envoy to pick up proficiency and specialization with longarms.
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #2: The solar weapon is all but useless from 1st to 5th level. It is much better for a solarian to pick up a tactical pike and avail of 1d8 damage and reach that can still target adjacent creatures. 1d6 damage is pathetic....... Yes and no, you're comparing a solar weapon(one-handed) with two-handed weapons. A better comparison would against a longsword, which is still 1d8 but doesn't have reach. So still an average of +1 damage but doesn't have reach and it can be sundered/disarmed/confiscated. At 9th level it'd be against a Microserrated Longsword which does 2d10, avg of 11 compared to a solar weapon w/crystal 5d6 avg 17.5.
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #3: The solarian is a Strength-based melee class, yet its key ability modifier is Charisma. This means that a human, half-elf, or half-orc solarian is going to start with Strength 18 and Charisma 14, thereby screwing a solarian out of Resolve Points compared to a soldier. This also means that a solarian has no room for Dexterity, which would have improved their durability as a frontliner. In contrast, a human, half-elf, or half-orc melee soldier can easily have Strength 18 and Dexterity 14, giving them more Resolve Points, initiative, AC, Reflex, and ranged attack bonus. Skill bonuses are nice, but a frontliner has to actually survive over the course of the day. Agreed, running off of Cha while still needing the other stats is a huge detriment. If you want to ignore your abilities that force a save you would normally be able to ignore Cha but your resolve points are governed by it and you really want those.
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #4: Both of the mandatory 1st-level revelations are not that good. They are very positioning-dependent, and a solarian can use them only during their third turn and onwards. By that time, there is absolutely no guarantee that the solarian will be in a good position to use Black Hole or Supernova. They require saving throws from a Charisma secondary class, and Black Hole is a dangerous proposition for a frontliner with middling EAC and KAC. Agreed.
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #5: There is a "one true build" for solarians from 2nd to 7th level, and that involves taking Stellar Rush at 2nd, Plasma Sheath at 4th, and Corona at 6th, always staying photon mode (extra damage beats a bonus to Reflex, obviously), and then completely ignoring Black Hole and Supernova. This results in raw melee mobility, damage, and counterdamage. Absolutely no other solarian build can compete with this. There is no reason to bother with any other photon revelations from 2nd to 7th level, let alone any graviton revelations from 2nd to 7th level. Yes, that means sucking up the fact that attunement now takes 4 points. It does not inspire much confidence in the class's design when it is clear that this one build outshines every other. If you're going for "optimization" yeah, but not everyone will, that said I agree. That's the same issue with the Envoy, there are some options that are strictly better than other ones.
Colette Brunel wrote: • Solarian Problem #6: Well, #5 is not necessarily true. Depending on how Blazing Orbit works, if the fire damage applies with each square a creature is forced into, it could very well be the solarian's greatest source of damage by 6th level. This could stand to be patched. I'm assuming it's only once regardless of how many squares you go through, but that really should be clarified.
Colette Brunel wrote: Is this assessment accurate? Pretty much.
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