It might be a biiiit too early to be theorycrafting houserules, but I'd like some input on this--what would the implications be were I to give an Operative had the ability to Trick Attack within the base range increment of the sniper weapons--would this be too powerful?
Honestly, probably.
For a test, have the GM try it out on your party first. Being trick-sniped from 'Oh Shelyn why?!?' distances should be educational.
I have to assume that since "give sniper rifles trick attack damage" is a pretty obvious idea the designers probably had it work that way at some point. The fact that it doesn't work that way now implies that there's a reason for it.
Personally, I suspect they figured out that "the operative sits 500 yards away and headshots people" was not a fun way for ALL the battles to play out, so they tried to balance it so that even characters who are built to be snipers are also going to be almost as effective at other things.
Doesn't Trick Shot already work at range? Or is it one of those "Only within 30 feet" things?
Unless one of you have read the CRB and know better.
Ah, I was referring to the range that snipers have without taking the move action to ready--80 feet for most of them, about the range of a pistol.
It would make sniper rifles worth using, which would be nice. Right now, they don't really serve much purpose outside of being a very situational toy (That operatives get basically zero use out of despite the proficiency)
"Debilitating Sniper" covers this under 6th level Operative abilities, but is clear about not allowing the damage (just grants Flat-Footed and debilitating tricks). I checked, and there's no "advanced" version that allows the damage, so it seems pretty deliberate that sniper weapons do not allow Trick Attack.
I'd imagine part of this may have to do with the ability to perhaps get out of your ship (any armor at all provides vacuum protection) and one-shot the Captain of an enemy vessel through a window or something.
That said, I'd probably try it for a bit to figure out what the exact problem is. Trick attack damage doesn't start getting really high until higher levels, at which point weapons start doing a lot of damage anyway.
I'd imagine part of this may have to do with the ability to perhaps get out of your ship (any armor at all provides vacuum protection) and one-shot the Captain of an enemy vessel through a window or something.
Oddly enough: Even if sniper rifles could be used with Trick attack, you couldn't do that. Sniper takes a move action to aim and Trick Attack is a full round action. So you'd be using the default sniper rifle range (Lower than many longarms).
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"Debilitating Sniper" covers this under 6th level Operative abilities, but is clear about not allowing the damage (just grants Flat-Footed and debilitating tricks). I checked, and there's no "advanced" version that allows the damage, so it seems pretty deliberate that sniper weapons do not allow Trick Attack.
I'd imagine part of this may have to do with the ability to perhaps get out of your ship (any armor at all provides vacuum protection) and one-shot the Captain of an enemy vessel through a window or something.
That said, I'd probably try it for a bit to figure out what the exact problem is. Trick attack damage doesn't start getting really high until higher levels, at which point weapons start doing a lot of damage anyway.
From a math standpoint, if you have trick attack with longarms, heavy weapons, sniper rifles, etc you will wind up dealing (significantly) more damage than any other character in the game, soldier included. Remember that right now, they work with small arms and operative weapons, which aren't the ones that do a lot of damage at higher levels.
Oddly enough, triple/quad attack means that Operatives stop using Trick Attack at higher levels if they are going for raw damage as the damage from being able to make 3x/4x as many attacks is better than the bonus dice.
As written, how does the Debilitating Sniper ability work with the sniper weapons in the book? Does it override the limitation that you can't use Trick Attack with unwieldy weapons? And is it intended that you can't use the "Sniper" ability with Trick Attack? The fact that a Laser Pistol has a greater range and can be used for trick attacks without any limitations makes me think you were supposed to be able to use the Sniper feature, otherwise there wouldn't be a much of a benefit.
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Oddly enough, triple/quad attack means that Operatives stop using Trick Attack at higher levels if they are going for raw damage as the damage from being able to make 3x/4x as many attacks is better than the bonus dice.
Occasionally, but it depends on what you're fighting. There's actually probably more times from an expected damage standpoint that you'd rather make one trick attack against flat-footed than four attacks with the penalty, but it depends on other factors. You very rarely want to make three attacks instead of a trick attack, but you might if you have multiple soft targets where a hit is enough to drop them and the trick attack damage is overkill (or one target that is really low and you just want to maximize your chance you hit at all).
From a math standpoint, if you have trick attack with longarms, heavy weapons, sniper rifles, etc you will wind up dealing (significantly) more damage than any other character in the game, soldier included. Remember that right now, they work with small arms and operative weapons, which aren't the ones that do a lot of damage at higher levels.
Why were they given sniper rifle prof if they can't actually use any class features with them then? Giving them say, half trick attack dice when using sniper rifles would have at least let them use their kinda superfluous proficiency.
From a math standpoint, if you have trick attack with longarms, heavy weapons, sniper rifles, etc you will wind up dealing (significantly) more damage than any other character in the game, soldier included. Remember that right now, they work with small arms and operative weapons, which aren't the ones that do a lot of damage at higher levels.Why were they given sniper rifle prof if they can't actually use any class features with them then? Giving them say, half trick attack dice when using sniper rifles would have at least let them use their kinda superfluous proficiency.
With their extreme range, I think there are times when a Sniper weapon would be preferable to a close range, high damage trick attack. Sniper weapons seem like a niche option, though. The fact that you can't actually make your trick attack at the Sniper range (even without the bonus damage) is weird though, and my gut says it's unintentional. Like a sentence got cut out of Debilitating Sniper or something.
I would not want to play in a game where trick attack could be applied to a sniper rifle. Would make all other characters pretty mush useless. I have played games where you feel underpowered compared to someone else and its not fun. In my opinion the operative gets too many abilities compared to other classes as is.
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The fact that you can't actually make your trick attack at the Sniper range (even without the bonus damage) is weird though, and my gut says it's unintentional. Like a sentence got cut out of Debilitating Sniper or something.
Yeah, it does seem odd. Using sniper rifles to apply debilitating conditions sounds neat to me (all damage considerations aside), but my mind immediately suggests an operative a thousand feet out making the precise shot to apply the condition. However, the rules only let you walk around near the enemy with a clumsy longer-than-longarm and try to firefight with it. You could still be concealed, and you don't have to move, but it doesn't fit what I'd expect the use to be.
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From a math standpoint, if you have trick attack with longarms, heavy weapons, sniper rifles, etc you will wind up dealing (significantly) more damage than any other character in the game, soldier included. Remember that right now, they work with small arms and operative weapons, which aren't the ones that do a lot of damage at higher levels.I made a damage comparison, it took me a while to prepare but I think it's worth a look. I'm using this damage calculator, it should work the same with Starfinder data, hopefully.
** spoiler omitted **...
The postmonster ate my longer post where I did some math :(
Anyways, the short version is: Great work on the spreadsheet! Trick Attack is going to be against -2 AC, so though it's not on the chart right now, even if you assume that the trick attacking small arm operative is the same operative who bought two pistols instead of one bigger pistol and took the Multiweapon feat (and presumably the exploit for debilitations), the damage on trick attack small arms is going be higher than triple attack (28.5 vs 21.97 at level 10 on the highlighted row) and about the same as quad attack (52.65 vs 52.95 on the highlighted row). So triple attack is slightly lower expected damage and probably won't debilitate, but it has a niche for dropping several weaker foes (possibly after the technomancer blew them up). Quad attack is about equal, so it's better against mooks and worse against bosses or DR, so depending on the situation, you might choose one or the other (if you don't prepare for Quad Attacking with feat/exploit/gear support, the breakpoints are different and more in favor of trick attack, but even then quad is still a good bet against mooks or if you have an envoy). If this conclusion seems similar to what I said above, it's because I've done something similar to what you did here with spreadsheets during Starfinder math time! :)
Another cool thing your spreadsheet showed was how much that -2 AC (effective +2 to hit) makes a difference. An envoy is going to make things a lot better for the quad attacker. Good work!
Oh right, I forgot about that. If anyone wants the numbers I threw together two more sheets, comparing small arm full attack with small arm trick attack. Sheet 1 Sheet 2 And surprise surprise it comes out exactly as you said.
Conclusions:
At super long range use a sniper rifle(duh) otherwise ignore them.
From level 1-12 a single attack trick attack is better than a full attack, as long as you can reliably hit the skill DC.
From level 13+ full attacks and trick attacks are roughly equal with full attack being better against multiple mooks and trick attack being favored against single enemies.
You used a similar methodology to check it as I did to build it, so it's fairly expected, but I'm from a scientific research background where they hammer peer review into us, so I do appreciate the independent verification!
Sniper rifles are mean against people without sniper rifles. You just sit back, and kill people up to a mile away until they get under full cover. If they run, you clear the area. If they hide, you advance. If the charge, you get free shots in, and when they reach you, Operative doesn't really need to switch weapons to be useful- start slapping bleed effects on them with your trick attack close-range sniping.
Slight sniper-related tangent but I imagine Envoy could make use of the sniper pretty well, though probably only at higher levels. A lot of Envoy abilities key off of standard action attacks so unweildy weapons are probably better for them, if you took the improvisation that doubles the range of all other improvisations you can just sit 100ft. away and buff/debuff to your heart's content without risking yourself too much.
As written, how does the Debilitating Sniper ability work with the sniper weapons in the book? Does it override the limitation that you can't use Trick Attack with unwieldy weapons? And is it intended that you can't use the "Sniper" ability with Trick Attack? The fact that a Laser Pistol has a greater range and can be used for trick attacks without any limitations makes me think you were supposed to be able to use the Sniper feature, otherwise there wouldn't be a much of a benefit.
Looks like this hasn't been answered yet. There's a 6th level Operative ability you can choose that lets you make Debilitating Shots (but still no trick attack damage) with sniper rifles.
Actually, this is possible at sniper range, just not with Trick damage.
Envoy + Hurry & Improved Hurry
Operative + Debilitating SniperYou get the sniping 250+ft range, with flat-footed, debilitating trick - just not the trick attack damage.
Ooooh! Now it all makes sense! And it fits with how snipers usually have spotters.
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Actually, this is possible at sniper range, just not with Trick damage.
Envoy + Hurry & Improved Hurry
Operative + Debilitating SniperYou get the sniping 250+ft range, with flat-footed, debilitating trick - just not the trick attack damage.
Looking at the Hurry text, the move action can be used to "take a guarded step, move up to her speed, or draw or sheathe a weapon." I don't think it works for activating the Sniper ability, unfortunately! ( I hoped that it did too :D )
Edit: Separately, the last line of Trick Attack specifically disallows unwieldy weapons. I assume that Debilitating Sniper circumvents this?
From level 1-12 a single attack trick attack is better than a full attack, as long as you can reliably hit the skill DC.
Since an operative can generally take 10 on that check, it's safe to say it would be pretty reliable most of the time.
The last line of Trick Attack specifically disallows unwieldy weapons. I assume that Debilitating Sniper circumvents this?
Obviously it does, otherwise Debilitating Sniper accomplishes absolutely nothing.
You're not. There's a class ability you can choose to apply your debilitating thingy to someone you hit twice with a triple/quadruple attack, but no damage option.
Generally speaking, sniper rifles /are/ niche weapons, your averase infantryman doesn't carry one around, he carries an assault rifle or carbine.
Sniper Rifles are long range weapons, and in trained, skilled hands they can be accurate to incredible distances, but that comes at a cost: sniper rifles are long in the barrel for accuracy and heavy to resist recoil (and as a result of aforesaid long bareel, and sighting mechanisms), which means that they aren't nimble weapons.
Despite what Call of Duty tells us, you can't really take potshots on the run with a long rifle and expect to hit.
I wouldn't have a problem with this. Right now sniper rifles are a joke, most longarms are better.
The only benefit of a sniper rifle is its range, but combat in SF normally don't take place over hundreds of feet.
Also the damage of a sniper rifle is ridiculous, a level 13 sniper does 4 to 40 damage (av. 24).
A level 13 NSC has 190 to 225 hp, so you need around ~ 8 shots to kill it with a sniper rifle. That didn't sound very "sniper" to me.
With trick attack this level 13 sniper would do 12 to 94 damage, still no one shot, but definitly a little more intressting.
Another idea would be to grant the sniper rifle a general damage bonus, if the player use one round to aim.
e.g.:
Basic shot = one shot/round, normal damage
Aimed shot = one shot every two rounds, damage x 2.5 (or so)
This would also transport the fantasy of a sniper without making it overpowered.
And meanwhile Operatives are over here like "I can turn off their flashlight, or make them a little slower for a bit!" It's kinda BS
Have you looked at Bleeding Shot? There's no way to stop bleeding outside a medicine check or healing. And Stagger can essentially cripple flying creatures and seriously debuff anyone else. It is even worse if you're shooting from range and can just keep them buttoned down and afraid to move out of cover.
Sniper Trick Attacks are no joke.
Honestly, sniper weapons are just in a rough place because you're either far away from the party and shooting (or else what was the point, you could have used a longarm) or you're the only one engaging the enemy.
Honestly, the problem isn't even with trick attack and operatives with sniper rifles. It's just sniper rifles with their extreme possible range just create a party problem where either the person using them isn't getting the benefit of range, or the whole party isn't engaged, or the sniper sets up camp a mile away and follows the party while either never being challenged or in danger or gets ganked far away from where anyone can help.
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Sniper rifles are just filling a niche situation. They are no weapons to specialize in, just a tool you can sometimes draw to solve a problem.
Also, there are a few classes which can act at long range. Soldiers and Operatives thanks to sniper rifles, Mystics and Technomancers thanks to summons (air elementals run 500ft per round) or fog cloud. And the Envoy can still heal his comrades. So, a sniping battle is far from a boring one, especially if you find a few things to do with the short range classes (protect civilians, open the locked door, whatever).
In my opinion, a sniping/counter sniping fight with a few objectives to fulfill during the fight can be a tremendous amount of fun.
My group loves sniper rifles. My group is currently 8th level.
Both the operative and soldier in my group have taken far shot.
They both have a Series 37 Plasma Guide Sniper Rifle (Range 500 feet).
They both have a laser scopes on them. This doubles the base range to 1000 feet.
But additionally the laser scope negates range penalties by 4.
This effectively gives the Series 37 a base range of 5,000 feet with no penalty on the to hit roll.
The also both have silenced flash suppressors attached so at 5,000 feet away the sniper's location is very difficult to detect.
Think of how many rounds you have verses creatures with a move of 30 feet. Its going to take them 66 rounds doing nothing but a double move to get to within 1000 feet of the sniper. Even a flying speed of 60 takes 33 rounds to get within a 1000 feet.
So my 4 players have 2 snipe and 2 spot for the snipers. Assume that my players only hit 50% of the time. Each sniper is going to get off 55 shots in the 66 rounds (Have to reload after 5 shots). That is 55 hits each a 2d8+8 or 110d8 +440 points of damage dealt. Verses the flying creature with of speed of 60 the snipers will each get off 28 shots for 56d8 +224 points of damage.
In most cases, not much is left by the time the enemy reaches the 1000 feet away mark.
And yes I use snipers against my players too.
I second SuperBidi's comment about sniper / counter sniping fights being a tremendous amount of fun.
Think of how many rounds you have verses creatures with a move of 30 feet. Its going to take them 66 rounds doing nothing but a double move to get to within 1000 feet of the sniper. Even a flying speed of 60 takes 33 rounds to get within a 1000 feet.
Conversely, as someone who isn't playing a character with that long of range or especially a melee character this sounds like the worst thing ever and I would absolutely hate to deal with it in the group.
Both on my team and against.
Also most of the time there isn't 200' of clear line of sight to an enemy, let alone 5000'.
Conversely, as someone who isn't playing a character with that long of range or especially a melee character this sounds like the worst thing ever and I would absolutely hate to deal with it in the group.
Both on my team and against.
First, you can have a sniper rifle yourself. Being bad with it doesn't mean you can't use it. When my mystic is in a ship she's not much usefull than you would be.
Also, you can think of something to do in such case. You know it can happen, so why haven't you something to do? It's like complaining because your character can't do anything in a ship, and do nothing to change that matter of fact.
Different things you can do:
- Smoke grenades (in counter sniping)
- Spell Ampoules to give bonuses to your sniping teammates
- Spell Gems (with a weapon fusion to use them) to help your teammates
- Covering or harrying fire with a sniper rifle
The game give you lots of things to do actually.
Think of how many rounds you have verses creatures with a move of 30 feet. Its going to take them 66 rounds doing nothing but a double move to get to within 1000 feet of the sniper. Even a flying speed of 60 takes 33 rounds to get within a 1000 feet.Conversely, as someone who isn't playing a character with that long of range or especially a melee character this sounds like the worst thing ever and I would absolutely hate to deal with it in the group.
Both on my team and against.
Also most of the time there isn't 200' of clear line of sight to an enemy, let alone 5000'.
I guess I am extremely fortunate to have a table that thinks team first and has no problems with different people shining at different times. In my sniper battle the spotters have as much fun as the snipers.
I let them make a perception roll with range finding binoculars. If they succeed I pass them a note with range, wind speed and direction and any other pertinent info. The player spotting calls out the info and I award the sniper a +2 to hit as they have been aided.
As for a 5,000' line of site it is not that uncommon. The scenario that I laid out happened. The group was in a settlement outpost on a barren planet (think Eos Mass Effect Andromeda)on high ground over looking a vast plain. I sent 300 Kett to wipe out the outpost. The PCs spotted the dust clouds from several miles away and were waiting. The 6 PCs organized the defenses and placed the NPCs. The Kett attacked 50 at a time in 6 waves with each wave about 750 feet apart. Also each wave was slightly more challenging then the last. The last wave had snipers in it; to keep the PC snipers busy.
The Kett did get into the perimeter and thats when the tecnomacher and Envoy took over as well as the two PCs spotting (both rangers one H2H themed and an elf with a bow themed)and a wild melee ensued.
A couple of hours latter the handful of Kett retreated (while being sniped at the whole way). A few NPC settlers were lost. 1 Operative had a broken collar bone from a fall off a building, the other operative finished with about 10 hit points, the technomancer fared the best just running out of stamina, the H2H ranger was unconscious and clinging to life, the elf bow ranger had about half her hit points left and the envoy had about 25% left.
The outpost held the Kett were broken (but far from defeated yet).
The players still revel in talking about this battle. It was great.
Everyone participated and everyone shined at different times.
I could, but I shouldn't have to. I should be able to play my melee character and do my thing without the party sniper saying "No I'd like the rest of the party to not do their thing while I get to do mine". It's simply not an egalitarian way of playing. If the whole party wanted to be snipers it would be one thing. But most characters aren't designed to operate at those ranges, including enemies. Party members can shine in a scenario, that's fine, but when other characters are effectively non-participants that's just not acceptable in my opinion.
I can think of things to do while snipers are shooting, but the party shouldn't have to wait to perform their roles. Sniping is simply a bad role because it's not useful if you're not at extreme range, and nothing else in game has the range that sniper rifles can achieve.
I understand why they're in the game, but they're simply bad for cooperative play in my opinion.
Melee characters should get to be in melee, spell casters should get to cast, longarm users should be able to shoot their guns normally. All of these work fine at the same sort of ranges. Sniper rifles are the ones that standout as not working well with the others.
I could, but I shouldn't have to. I should be able to play my melee character and do my thing without the party sniper saying "No I'd like the rest of the party to not do their thing while I get to do mine". It's simply not an egalitarian way of playing. If the whole party wanted to be snipers it would be one thing. But most characters aren't designed to operate at those ranges, including enemies. Party members can shine in a scenario, that's fine, but when other characters are effectively non-participants that's just not acceptable in my opinion.
I can think of things to do while snipers are shooting, but the party shouldn't have to wait to perform their roles. Sniping is simply a bad role because it's not useful if you're not at extreme range, and nothing else in game has the range that sniper rifles can achieve.
I understand why they're in the game, but they're simply bad for cooperative play in my opinion.
Melee characters should get to be in melee, spell casters should get to cast, longarm users should be able to shoot their guns normally. All of these work fine at the same sort of ranges. Sniper rifles are the ones that standout as not working well with the others.
I understand what you are saying and ideally yes I would love for all PCs to be equal participants all the time, but there are times were is just is not going to happen.
Look at the Starfinder Society Scenario: "Duskmire Accord 9" The PCs had a 4 pack of envoy, operative, Soldier and H2H ranger (Starfarer's Companion). The envoy and operative talked their way through the entire scenario with the soldier and ranger contributing almost nothing as not one fight broke out. And believe me I tried to provoke them. But superior roleplay with quality diplomacy and bluff roles ruled the day.
As I said earlier my group is team focused so the solider and ranger were ok with this. I could see how others might not be so ok.
Some scenarios and situations just let certain classes shine better than others.
For example this weekend will see a heavy combat scenario with close ranges. It is going to be a 5 pack of 2 operatives, A bow using mystic ranger (Starfarer's Companion), a technomancer and a soldier.
The soldier better outshine the others or it could be a rough weekend for all.
My group consists of an Operative, a Mystic (focusing on undead stuff), drone mechanic, a biohacker and my melee Soldier.
Sure different characters can contribute more in different scenarios, but in combat situations we should avoid characters not be able to contribute in their desired way. This is my reasoning for despising sniper rifles, because it's either a slow firing longarm when the user is with the group, or the rest of the group isn't really involved while the range of the sniper rifle makes it so there's not really sufficient challenge from the enemy.
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I really look at it the other way. Most combats will take place in circumstances where all the characters can try to use their preferred tactics, but I also figure that it's on my character to have a backup plan for when that doesn't work.
So my spellcasters need to have a plan for what they can do when they're out of spells after a grueling day, or the enemies have SR, or an anti magic zone exists.
My melee fighters need a plan for how to cover long and/or vertical distances, and how to fight things they have a hard time reaching.
The character who likes their sniper rifle needs to consider whether to carry something else for close quarters.
Everyone needs a plan for what to do in case of a swarm that is immune to their favorite single target attack.
Etc.
I wouldn't run a game where every combat was an exercise in getting across a sniper killzone, but there's no reason I wouldn't throw something like that in occasionally. Everyone should sometimes have to deal with what their character is bad at. Using preferred tactics all the time gets stale much more quickly.
My group consists of an Operative, a Mystic (focusing on undead stuff), drone mechanic, a biohacker and my melee Soldier.
Sure different characters can contribute more in different scenarios, but in combat situations we should avoid characters not be able to contribute in their desired way. This is my reasoning for despising sniper rifles, because it's either a slow firing longarm when the user is with the group, or the rest of the group isn't really involved while the range of the sniper rifle makes it so there's not really sufficient challenge from the enemy.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I feel my job is to create challenging combat encounters for my players and its my player's job to overcome these challenges.
If I create combat encounters that cater to every characters ability then they cease to be challenges and become a situation of who rolls dice better.
I routinely create combat encounters that put my players at a disadvantage or on their heels. I challenge them.
Rest assured they are more than happy to put plans in place that put the NPCs of the galaxy at a disadvantage.
To me it makes for realistic, vibrant and challenging combat scenarios.
In my encounter above: It was my players who asked how far can we see, it was my players who said let's get the snipers on the highest points and get them spotters. It was my players who said you 2 other PCs who cannot help at 5,000' hunker down and keep the civilians down.
They also could have easily said: well all stay in cover until the first group is 400 feet away and then we ALL blast them together.
Would that have worked? I don't know, maybe, but probably they would have over run by numbers.
In my mind my players' plan was brilliant with the situation given.
Also historically a sniper or two could keep a platoon or company of soldiers at bay for hours.
I don't see an issue with the sniper rifle.
Edit: a properly equipped longarm person can make life difficult for a sniper.
A corona laser rifle has a base range of a 120 feet. Add a laser scope and the base range is now 480 feet and the first -4 of penalties is negated. Give that longarm character the far shot feat and now they can shoot to 2400 feet with no penalty and they can shoot out to 4800 feet with a -5 penalty. So the sniper's life can be made difficult.
Also the laser scope can be added to heavy weapons! Think of the possibilities.
The morale of the story is: get a laser scope! LOL!
This isn't a discussion about the effectiveness of the sniper rifle, sniper rifles are historically quite effective.
It's a discussion about what is the most fun for the group.
I am of the opinion that a majority of people are having less fun when they have almost nothing to do while other characters snipe and engage the enemy. I'm not saying all players are this way, but not everyone wants to be a spotter or keep the civilians calm.
My objective is maximizing all the players fun at the table, and doing essentially nothing (for combat) doesn't sound like fun to me. And to expand on why it's a problem, is because it usually takes the most game time. The other parts of game, RP sections, making skill checks for diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, usually move way faster than any combat section of the game.