GM Dinketry (PFS 08-16) and the House of Harmonious Wisdom Discussion


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Grand Lodge

Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly

Out of curiosity as I think about my next move, can any of these Jade Ogre maneuvers be performed at the end of a charge?

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

I think they are all standard actions, so they can't be performed as a charge.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Ok, clarifications:

Scorpion A - the female one; currently wrecked unconscious on the floor (black-white upside down icon)

Scorpion B - male, blue

Scorpion C - male, black

Scorpion D - male, yellow; has been tagged by L'Mont

Apologies for confusions.

Grand Lodge

Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly
Ushi Goroshi wrote:
I think they are all standard actions, so they can't be performed as a charge.

Generally I think you're right, but there are a few combat maneuvers that can be done on a charge (bull rush, overrun), so I figured I'd ask.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

None of the Jade Ogre moves are charge-worthy, unfortunately.

Scarab Sages

Female N Kitsune Sorcerer 1 | hp -5/8 4nl | AC 12, tch 12, ff 10 | CMD 11 | Init +2 | Perc. +0 S. Motive +0

Couldn't Mongo charge yellow? He has a straight line path without obstacles.

The Jade Ogre style says that the moves are attack actions, not standard actions. So, they should be usable with a charge.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Perhaps if you were more than 24hr students of the School of the Jade Ogre, a charge and Jade Ogre attack could be allowed, but I'm ruling for now, no.

Grand Lodge

Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly

Fair enough. Most combat maneuvers can't be done on a charge.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

Oops - just realized I've been using L'Mont's normal unarmed strike damage instead of what's in the Jade Ogre Style document! Sorry gang.

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

I assume that small creatures should be a d4 instead of a d6, which is what I used.

GM Dinketry can correct me, of course, if I am wrong.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

Still beats 1d2.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

That's true, Glastor. But what's done is done.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.
GM Dinketry wrote:
That's true, Glastor. But what's done is done.

Was he wrong?

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

No. I'm not bothering to have you go back and reroll damage from 2 combat rounds ago. We are moving forward.

Scarab Sages

Female N Kitsune Sorcerer 1 | hp -5/8 4nl | AC 12, tch 12, ff 10 | CMD 11 | Init +2 | Perc. +0 S. Motive +0

but, should he be rolling d4s or d6s now...?

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Small folk should be rolling d4s for damage moving forward. Sorry for not being clear enough.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

Thanks. I don't think anyone was looking to retcon, I certainly wasn't - just trying to figure out what we should do going forward.

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

Nope, just confirming the correct die size

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

So, I confess that I'm not certain about your ability, Ushi, to use Disarm to grab an object from someone, as opposed to using it to knock an object out of the opponent's hands.

RAW, the Disarm combat manoeuvre states that if you beat the combatant's CMD, your opponent drops one item of your choice. It states nothing about your ability to snatch that item from his hands.

Additionally, Ushi is wearing a shield and (EDIT: not) wielding a weapon (EDIT: D'oh!), so I'm (EDIT: not) strongly leaning towards not allowing you to grab the item, but simply knocking it out of his hands.

Thoughts?

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

Ushi is not wielding a weapon, he is using unarmed strikes, which thankfully do not provoke when he uses Jade Ogre for this quest.

Disarm wrote:
If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.

He will be unable to perform strikes until he can pocket the potion however.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Hmmm...it says "pick up the item dropped", not snatch from them. The RAW would imply that the item was dropped before you picked it up.

I'll rule that, on your turn, you can spend a move action to pick up the dropped vial without needing to search for it, but it's not a free action. What do you think?

I realise that this has no practical bearing on the outcome of the combat, likely. I'm simply clarifying it for my own purposes. Apologies if the discussion seems pedantic or needlessly dense, from the GM's end of things.

FYI, please notice my edits on my previous post. OF COURSE you're not using a weapon. *face palm*


Sign-Ups
GM Dinketry wrote:
I'll rule that, on your turn, you can spend a move action to pick up the dropped vial without needing to search for it, but it's not a free action. What do you think?

I'm not sure if that qualifies as "automatic." It's hard to imagine a sense of that word that isn't "as a free action as part of the maneuver."

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

Referencing the 3.5 text under Grabbing Items.

Grabbing Items wrote:

You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.

If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.

You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.

All of this text was reduced down to the single line mentioned previously. If you want to say in Pathfinder items cannot be snatched from opponents, that's fine. Ushi had not taken a move action in that round and I don't know if the Scorpion had Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the second AoO, but it's a chance Ushi is willing to take.

Grand Lodge

Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly

It seems reasonable to say it hits the floor before Ushi can grab it (and thus has a chance of breaking), but the quoted disarm rule does say "automatically pick up the item", which to me means Ushi shouldn't have to spend an action to do it.

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

Personally, I read "automatically pick up the item dropped" to not take an action. However, since the potion was not a weapon, really,she should have done the steal maneuver rather than disarm. Same CMB roll vs CMD, so as a GM I would probably let the person do it...

Since we're not monks or brawlers, we can't unarmed strike with any limb, so Ushi is right. This effectively disarms him until he puts the potion away. Which, as a GM, I'd let go any time >:)

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

Good point Glastor, I always forget about the non-Core maneuvers.


Sign-Ups

Steal is used for objects and weapons that are not in hand. Disarm was appropriate for the potion. I do think that Ushi should have taken the "unarmed" penalty, though.

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

What unarmed penalty? Edit: Ah, how did I miss that? >.< So 4 lower.

(I swear, unarmed combat is the second-most exceptioned style in d20.)

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Interesting. I'm still not clear on the "4 lower" thing mentioned here. Could someone clarify that for me?

Looking at it again, it seems that the majority agree that "automatically" equates with "free action", so I'm happy to rule in that way.

REVERSAL OF CALL. Ushi has said potion in hand.

Could someone clarify the -4 thing, please. Also, I'm not sure if I'm going to accept 3.5 rules as current canon, but it doesn't matter in this case.

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer
Disarm wrote:
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

L'Mont checks in after an hour away, sees 11 new posts in the discussion thread about a combat maneuver he has never used, waits until the issue is resolved.

"Yes, I agree!"

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Ah yes. I read that and interpreted that you were armed from the Jade Ogre manuevers, but in thinking it through, I previously ruled that someone else (Mongo) couldn't make a complex combat action (charge) using Jade Ogre, so if I were to be consistent with my ruling, then you wouldn't be able to use Jade Ogre to act as armed for the purposes of a Disarm, either.

So Ushi's original move would've been at a -4, which would've been 18, which still would've succeeded.

YAYYYY.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Ah yes. I read that and interpreted that you were armed from the Jade Ogre manuevers, but in thinking it through, I previously ruled that someone else (Mongo) couldn't make a complex combat action (charge) using Jade Ogre, so if I were to be consistent with my ruling, then you wouldn't be able to use Jade Ogre to act as armed for the purposes of a Disarm, either.

So Ushi's original move would've been at a -4, which would've been 18, which still would've succeeded.

YAYYYY. Thanks for the clarification, y'all.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

If everyone is OK with the plan as proposed by Mongo, we will continue with the Constellations scene later on tonite.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

Yup!

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

Works for me!

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.
GM Dinketry wrote:
Crap, folks. I just realised that Document #2 and Document #1 are flipped from their position in the scenario. I've put you guys in the non-calligraphy scene. If you guys would like me to wave my magic wand and try again, I can do so. sorry.

Excrement occurs. I suggest we just play through - do the communications station, then the calligraphy school.

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

Seconded. The order was randomized anyway, now it's just doubly random!

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Right. And, for those of you who might be thinking of running this (more skillfully) in the future, the documents in the scenario are correctly ordered. Your Honourable GM just reversed #1 and #2 when placed them in the links.

So, to clarify, we are currently on the 'Constellations' scene. The 'Inkstains' (calligraphy) scene will be coming up next.

Apologies for confusions.

-Dink

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Human Bolt Ace 6 HP 9/46 | AC 22 T 17 FF 15 CMD 23 | F +9 R +12 W +5 | Init +9 | Perception +11 Grit (2/2)

I like to imagine one of the non-Tien speakers got directions and we ended up at the wrong quest.

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

It is never the wrong quest, it is the quest we needed to do.

FYI. Never follow a gnome.

Grand Lodge

Male N Wayang Unchained Rogue (Shadow Walker) | HP 15/17 | AC 19 T 16 FF 14 | CMB +1, CMD 16 | F: +1, R: +7, W: +0 | Init: +5 | Perc: +6 (darkvision 70'), SM: -1 | Speed 20ft | Rapier or Silver light mace +6, 1d4+1; Lt. crossbow +6, 1d6 | Active conditions: None.

All I know is, L'Mont is going to be very disappointed if he does not eventually get to rob the calligraphy school.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly
Glastor Gilderhoff III wrote:

To L'Mont

"That's dwarves, not gnomes, silly! The other dwarven song goes something like 'gold, gold, gold, gold, gold, GOLD!'"

First Brooks, now Pratchett. Well done.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |
Mongo DePon wrote:
First Brooks, now Pratchett. Well done.

Now we just need a Gilliam reference and we'll have a TERRY TRIFECTA.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Sorry y'all. Too busy past three days. I'll get back on the train tonite.

Silver Crusade

Male CG Gnome Cleric of Desna 6 | HP: 45/45| AC: 20 (12 tch, 19 Fl) | CMB: +3, CMD: 14 | F: +7, R: +3, W: +9; +2 vs. illusions | Init: +1 | Perc: +6 [low-light], SM: +8 | Speed 20 | Channel (positive) energy 9/9 (53d6, DC16) | Reroll: 1/1, Coin: 1/1, Pearl 1/1, Bit of Luck: 6/6, Agile Feet: 6/6| Active conditions:

FYI - Starting 5/20 I will be on vacation, in Seattle. I don't know what my status will be for wireless, and time, but I will do my best to post. I will be back in town 5/29 (after Paizo Con)

Grand Lodge

Male Half-Orc Fighter (siegebreaker) 8 | hp 69/69, temp 4/4 | AC 27 (haste +1) T 13 (haste +1) F 26 | DR 3/- (adam. armor) | CMB +13 (+2 Bull Rush/Over.) CMD 25 (27 Bull Rush/Overrun, 32 Grapple/Trip) (haste +1) | F +11, R +6 (haste +7), W +6 | Init +1 | Perc +1 (Dark 60), SM +13 | Speed 30' (haste 60')| Breaker Rush: 9 dam on Bull Rush/Overrun | Armored Vigor (4 temp hp) 3/5 | Current conditions: heroism, haste, fly
Glastor Gilderhoff III wrote:
FYI - Starting 5/20 I will be on vacation, in Seattle. I don't know what my status will be for wireless, and time, but I will do my best to post. I will be back in town 5/29 (after Paizo Con)

I will also be at PaizoCon and may have limited posting capability, though only from the 26th to the 29th.


I'll also be at PaizoCon, what gives?

The Exchange

M Nagaji Oracle6 HP 48/48 AC25(27)/TC15(17)/FF20 F+5 R+8(10) W+7 (+2/mind-affecting&poison) CMB+5 CMD15 Spd30ft Init+8 Perc+3 Spell Slots: 1st-7/8|2nd-1/6|3rd-3/4|Active Buffs: Blessing of Fervor (AC/Reflex), Prayer

I'll be busy with Phoenix Comicon at the same time. Probably still post daily.

Grand Lodge

The Mountain's Maw |

Ushi, did I miss your Knowledge check roll?

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