Mongo DePon |
Out of curiosity as I think about my next move, can any of these Jade Ogre maneuvers be performed at the end of a charge?
GM Dinketry |
Ok, clarifications:
Scorpion A - the female one; currently wrecked unconscious on the floor (black-white upside down icon)
Scorpion B - male, blue
Scorpion C - male, black
Scorpion D - male, yellow; has been tagged by L'Mont
Apologies for confusions.
Mongo DePon |
I think they are all standard actions, so they can't be performed as a charge.
Generally I think you're right, but there are a few combat maneuvers that can be done on a charge (bull rush, overrun), so I figured I'd ask.
Feng Luwei |
Couldn't Mongo charge yellow? He has a straight line path without obstacles.
The Jade Ogre style says that the moves are attack actions, not standard actions. So, they should be usable with a charge.
GM Dinketry |
Perhaps if you were more than 24hr students of the School of the Jade Ogre, a charge and Jade Ogre attack could be allowed, but I'm ruling for now, no.
Mongo DePon |
Fair enough. Most combat maneuvers can't be done on a charge.
L'Mont Penumberton |
Oops - just realized I've been using L'Mont's normal unarmed strike damage instead of what's in the Jade Ogre Style document! Sorry gang.
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
I assume that small creatures should be a d4 instead of a d6, which is what I used.
GM Dinketry can correct me, of course, if I am wrong.
L'Mont Penumberton |
That's true, Glastor. But what's done is done.
Was he wrong?
GM Dinketry |
No. I'm not bothering to have you go back and reroll damage from 2 combat rounds ago. We are moving forward.
GM Dinketry |
Small folk should be rolling d4s for damage moving forward. Sorry for not being clear enough.
L'Mont Penumberton |
Thanks. I don't think anyone was looking to retcon, I certainly wasn't - just trying to figure out what we should do going forward.
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
Nope, just confirming the correct die size
GM Dinketry |
So, I confess that I'm not certain about your ability, Ushi, to use Disarm to grab an object from someone, as opposed to using it to knock an object out of the opponent's hands.
RAW, the Disarm combat manoeuvre states that if you beat the combatant's CMD, your opponent drops one item of your choice. It states nothing about your ability to snatch that item from his hands.
Additionally, Ushi is wearing a shield and (EDIT: not) wielding a weapon (EDIT: D'oh!), so I'm (EDIT: not) strongly leaning towards not allowing you to grab the item, but simply knocking it out of his hands.
Thoughts?
Ushi Goroshi |
Ushi is not wielding a weapon, he is using unarmed strikes, which thankfully do not provoke when he uses Jade Ogre for this quest.
If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
He will be unable to perform strikes until he can pocket the potion however.
GM Dinketry |
Hmmm...it says "pick up the item dropped", not snatch from them. The RAW would imply that the item was dropped before you picked it up.
I'll rule that, on your turn, you can spend a move action to pick up the dropped vial without needing to search for it, but it's not a free action. What do you think?
I realise that this has no practical bearing on the outcome of the combat, likely. I'm simply clarifying it for my own purposes. Apologies if the discussion seems pedantic or needlessly dense, from the GM's end of things.
FYI, please notice my edits on my previous post. OF COURSE you're not using a weapon. *face palm*
GM OfAnything |
I'll rule that, on your turn, you can spend a move action to pick up the dropped vial without needing to search for it, but it's not a free action. What do you think?
I'm not sure if that qualifies as "automatic." It's hard to imagine a sense of that word that isn't "as a free action as part of the maneuver."
Ushi Goroshi |
Referencing the 3.5 text under Grabbing Items.
You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack.
If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.
You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.
All of this text was reduced down to the single line mentioned previously. If you want to say in Pathfinder items cannot be snatched from opponents, that's fine. Ushi had not taken a move action in that round and I don't know if the Scorpion had Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the second AoO, but it's a chance Ushi is willing to take.
Mongo DePon |
It seems reasonable to say it hits the floor before Ushi can grab it (and thus has a chance of breaking), but the quoted disarm rule does say "automatically pick up the item", which to me means Ushi shouldn't have to spend an action to do it.
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
Personally, I read "automatically pick up the item dropped" to not take an action. However, since the potion was not a weapon, really,she should have done the steal maneuver rather than disarm. Same CMB roll vs CMD, so as a GM I would probably let the person do it...
Since we're not monks or brawlers, we can't unarmed strike with any limb, so Ushi is right. This effectively disarms him until he puts the potion away. Which, as a GM, I'd let go any time >:)
GM OfAnything |
Steal is used for objects and weapons that are not in hand. Disarm was appropriate for the potion. I do think that Ushi should have taken the "unarmed" penalty, though.
Ushi Goroshi |
What unarmed penalty? Edit: Ah, how did I miss that? >.< So 4 lower.
(I swear, unarmed combat is the second-most exceptioned style in d20.)
GM Dinketry |
Interesting. I'm still not clear on the "4 lower" thing mentioned here. Could someone clarify that for me?
Looking at it again, it seems that the majority agree that "automatically" equates with "free action", so I'm happy to rule in that way.
REVERSAL OF CALL. Ushi has said potion in hand.
Could someone clarify the -4 thing, please. Also, I'm not sure if I'm going to accept 3.5 rules as current canon, but it doesn't matter in this case.
Ushi Goroshi |
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.
L'Mont Penumberton |
L'Mont checks in after an hour away, sees 11 new posts in the discussion thread about a combat maneuver he has never used, waits until the issue is resolved.
"Yes, I agree!"
GM Dinketry |
Ah yes. I read that and interpreted that you were armed from the Jade Ogre manuevers, but in thinking it through, I previously ruled that someone else (Mongo) couldn't make a complex combat action (charge) using Jade Ogre, so if I were to be consistent with my ruling, then you wouldn't be able to use Jade Ogre to act as armed for the purposes of a Disarm, either.
So Ushi's original move would've been at a -4, which would've been 18, which still would've succeeded.
YAYYYY.
GM Dinketry |
Ah yes. I read that and interpreted that you were armed from the Jade Ogre manuevers, but in thinking it through, I previously ruled that someone else (Mongo) couldn't make a complex combat action (charge) using Jade Ogre, so if I were to be consistent with my ruling, then you wouldn't be able to use Jade Ogre to act as armed for the purposes of a Disarm, either.
So Ushi's original move would've been at a -4, which would've been 18, which still would've succeeded.
YAYYYY. Thanks for the clarification, y'all.
GM Dinketry |
If everyone is OK with the plan as proposed by Mongo, we will continue with the Constellations scene later on tonite.
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
Works for me!
L'Mont Penumberton |
Crap, folks. I just realised that Document #2 and Document #1 are flipped from their position in the scenario. I've put you guys in the non-calligraphy scene. If you guys would like me to wave my magic wand and try again, I can do so. sorry.
Excrement occurs. I suggest we just play through - do the communications station, then the calligraphy school.
GM Dinketry |
Right. And, for those of you who might be thinking of running this (more skillfully) in the future, the documents in the scenario are correctly ordered. Your Honourable GM just reversed #1 and #2 when placed them in the links.
So, to clarify, we are currently on the 'Constellations' scene. The 'Inkstains' (calligraphy) scene will be coming up next.
Apologies for confusions.
-Dink
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
It is never the wrong quest, it is the quest we needed to do.
FYI. Never follow a gnome.
L'Mont Penumberton |
All I know is, L'Mont is going to be very disappointed if he does not eventually get to rob the calligraphy school.
Mongo DePon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To L'Mont
"That's dwarves, not gnomes, silly! The other dwarven song goes something like 'gold, gold, gold, gold, gold, GOLD!'"
First Brooks, now Pratchett. Well done.
GM Dinketry |
First Brooks, now Pratchett. Well done.
Now we just need a Gilliam reference and we'll have a TERRY TRIFECTA.
Glastor Gilderhoff III |
FYI - Starting 5/20 I will be on vacation, in Seattle. I don't know what my status will be for wireless, and time, but I will do my best to post. I will be back in town 5/29 (after Paizo Con)
Mongo DePon |
FYI - Starting 5/20 I will be on vacation, in Seattle. I don't know what my status will be for wireless, and time, but I will do my best to post. I will be back in town 5/29 (after Paizo Con)
I will also be at PaizoCon and may have limited posting capability, though only from the 26th to the 29th.