So ... Ghorans look fun, I appear to be on a nature magic trip at the moment and looking at the racials for a Ghoran a sorcerer seems obvious. Equally verdant seems like a thematic choice and it would be fun to make a nature Druid that wasn't a Druid. So with all that in mind! What should I be doing because that spell list is underwhelming, entangle is fun of course but speak with plants less so. Lol.
I've looked at the wildblooded thing and it's fun for summoning but not particularly remarkable and very not fun for not summoning. Also photosynthesis seems fun although there isn't much in the bloodline to build around in terms of bloodline powers or spells.
Now with all that in mind transmutation or conjuration seem like fun roads to go down for environment effecting spells, the more I think about it the more I think I want to make a controller but I've no idea what feats I should be looking towards for that kinds of caster.
So my friends got any hidden gems or nifty tips and tricks one can pull off as a controller or any experience with Verdant at all?
If you're looking at transmutation for control you're looking at really close range spells for the most part. Either close (25' + 5'/2) or spells like tremor blast with a 30' cone, or even touch range debuffs. Plus some personal buffs and the one odd spell out, pyrotechnics - that spell generally requires some setup to use though. I'd probably get reach spell so that I didn't have to be in the enemies' faces but you could try to make a sorcerer who can fight in melee if necessary. There are a couple of feats which are specific to this school, energy attunement (which can be abused) and tenacious transmutation (use if your GM likes dispel magic.)
Conjuration is the standard school that sorcerers and wizards use for control. Basically everything you want for control is in this school, there's not much to say. After getting SF (conjuration) it's only one more feat to get augment summoning - having the odd summoning spell is a temptation if you go this way.
If you don't care about the bloodline powers there are archetypes to trade some of them out. Tattooed sorcerer or seeker or eldritch scrapper. Mongrel mage trades the whole bloodline out.
Any touch spells in particular standing out? I don't really get tremor Blast if I'm remembering right it doesn't say you use your CL for BAB or casting stat for strength so it seems useless to me. Pyrotechnics is a fun spell :)
If I do end up going to touch spell route reach spell would be a thing, although I will say Verdant seems to kind of want you to get up in their face a bit. Maybe it would make a decent Eldritch knight?
Conjuration is of course walls and pits and clouds and so fourth that's pretty easy me thinks. I've made two characters who like summoning monsters before though and two that use it occasionally so that's not too exciting to me.
I'll take a look at those archetypes Eldritch scrapper sounds interesting although I do kind of like Verdant powers I just don't see how you could build around them.
Also thanks avr I see you in all my random character threads xD
Okay aside from the obvious walls and pits and maybe clouds I've been doing a bit of a search through transmutation spells.
Telekinetic Volly seems fun for a damage Spell early on but not not particularly good, excruciating defomation is quite kewl especially for reach Spell. Strangling hair is really kewl and good and control so a big win at level 6.
Obsidian flow is where things get really fun damage and a condition on a AOE I like this.
Hungry Earth sounds fun but in practice I imagine it is just a worse pit spell especially with roaming pit happening at the same level. Eventually reverse gravity comes online which will be fun.
So with entangle at 3 I'm now just wondering what this guy does at level 1 and 2 because 4-5 is entangle, glitter dust and create pit, with a whole bunch of options thereafter.
Grease is an option I guess touch of gracelessness would be kewl were it not touch as at these levels reach spell ain't a thing. Snap dragon firework seems fun I guess but at level 1 it's literally 1D4 + a minor debuff so I feel like it's not that much better than acid splash it has range but these are limited spells we are talking about. Did I just talk myself into grease? I feel like I just talked myself into grease.
I guess I could swap it out at 4 for snapdragon
Ekujae Jungle armor 3900gp(inner sea combat)- Can be used as a source of plants for entangle
Low level control: Glue seal, color spray(taste the rainbow), expeditious evacuation
If you want to play a druid that is not a druid may I recommend Magaambyan Arcanist PRC wizard or the Magaambyan arcanist archetype.
Wouldn't that armour give me Arcane spell failure?
I can't find the classes you mention when I searched for them this came up Collegiate Arcanist
Which seems kinda underwhelming especially since it's for prepared casters and Ghoran have a negative int score. Also I'm not really finding that I'm missing out on too many thematic spells, thorny entanglement is the only one that I really miss and I couldn't get that till level 9 if I'm not mistake.
I like building characters, so sue me.
Yes, I just mentioned tremor blast as an exception to the close, touch and personal range spells in the transmutation school. Besides that and pyrotechnics they're very consistently in one of those range categories. Though... the very fact it doesn't change your CMB suggests that trip feats do apply, which could be useful.
Grease, color spray or sleep are standard starting spells for sorcs/wizards. If you want to do control even at first level then grease or silent image work.
Verdant eldritch knight. It's an interesting idea. Would you go for the paladin 2/sorc 6/EK route or something like swashbuckler 1 or bloodrager 1 (w/mad magic) as the martial dip? Getting +1d4 AC for a round whenever you cast a personal range spell might be handy for an EK.
One neat thing about Conjuration is it includes a lot of acid damage spells. Bloodline Havok (without or without a damage boosting bloodline arcana) means you can actually double decent blast damage on top of all the control options being boosted by spell focus and such.
Yes the armor would give you arcane spell failure. If your allowed to modify it darkleaf + 1 re trainable feat would let you use it till quicken spell is available. Then you can give it to your familiar/cohort/party member/animal companion/hireling.
Forgot about the int penalty. Magaambyan arcanist is just my go to nature themed arcane caster. Pathfinder savant would be a better option if you wanted to grab some more druid spells
Grow Plant Creature is an option if you wanted some plant friends and have some extra feats + gold to burn
@avr Hmmm maybe building a trip caster with Tremor blast would be kewl then, I think it would work better on a 3/4 class though.
Silent image - I always forget silent image don't know why.
For Eldritch Knight, I agree a Paladin would be best but I don't want to be Lawful Good :L. I was thinking either Sorc6/Swash1/EK and go Dex based wasn't sure what to do for strength based. I Suppose it would be blood with mad magic. Why would I take 1 level of Swash and 1 of Blood?
The AC bonus doesn't stack with any other bonuses sadly so its still a bit tricky, the Tanglevine might come in handy though.
@Captain Morgan Blood Havoc was probably going to replace a bonus feat since they're not very exciting.
@Datis question, can my body count for entangle? Given I'm a plant, I assume no but it would be jokes if it did xD
Grow plant creature would be fun actually Leshy Gardens!
EDIT: Okay I've been doing some thunking
1 - Spell Focus Transmutation
2 -
3 - Improved Initiative (slot filler)
4 -
5 - Who freaking knows
6 -
7 - Swashbuckler, inspired blade, Weapon Focus Rapier + Swash Finesse + Fencing Grace
8 - Eldritch Knight ... Improved Disarm? oh I'd need combat expertise thats a bother .-.
9 - Energy Attunement
Okay so the idea is go Dex to damage and then use Monstrous Physique Burrowling for small size dex bonus at 10 I get Monstrous II and I can retrain Monstrous I, but I don't know any tiny monstrous humanoids? would be good though if we could find some. A Diminutive form would be amazing with a +7 to hit and +8 to AC with a +3 to damage. Before any of the monsters actual abilities. Don't think they can disarm though, maybe they still could with the vine?
and I could use Energy Attunement to jump between different forms if I'm understanding things. Which is pretty cray. There is probably also an argument for Elemental body, but I believe elementals can't cast and some monstrous humies can I think?
Anyway I'm thinking of making a crit fisher who can disarm when its handy to do so then when I get spell critical the crit fishing pays off, although my spell critical of choice is still a mystery, there is certainly something to be said for excruciating deformation. I guess Flesh to Stone would be an option.
I'd meant one or the other of the 1 level dips, not both. Bloodrager's a strength option by default tho' urban bloodrager does exist and isn't bad.
If you go with eldritch knight then those archetypes - eldritch scrapper for a bonus/floating feat, or tattooed sorcerer for a familiar that may be a bit tougher than usual and varisian tattoo to keep your caster level up - may be slightly more useful than usual.
re entangle, "This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around creatures in the area of effect or those that enter the area" suggests you wouldn't get much out of your own body. Maybe an effect on someone you grappled. The jungle armor's ability is special.
Sorry I feel like my edit has wiffled you up xD
Eldritch scrapper would be kewl if I can trade out photosynthesis instead of Tanglevine, its not technically a natural attack but I think an argument could be made.
Although actually Scrapper would only grant one combat feat with combat flex until like level 20 because of EK so I'm not sure how good it is.
On a PB a 25 (which is what my group uses) could look like this. I raised Int because skills man .-. I mean he needs 7 Spellcraft already.
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 18
Edit:Hmmm
Somehow we've ended up with two character concepts, that seems quite apart from the original plan.
I'm wondering if the controlling stuff with the sorc casting would still be viable with the EK? Cause they seem like they overlap in such away that either I wanna be controlling or I wanna be turning into a tiny thingy and killing things.
What do we think of being a caster based around conjuration and come controlling transfiguration's, particularly strangling hair into obsidian flow, who could turn into a little monster as a fall back? Is the investment in EK worth it for it to be only like 40% of the characters MO?
Or would it make more sense for the tiny guy to be his first line of attack and then control to be a fall back? I'm doubting this one because using control is normally something one wants to do early combat, using it as a oh s~%@ button doesn't sound too effective to me.
EDIT EDIT: Discarding the Disarm stuff since I don't think you can do it when you're tiny I'm thinking of taking Arcane Strike at 7 and Fencing Grace as the combat feat from EK.
1) Spell focus Transfiguration
3) Improved Initiative
5) Steadfast Personality
7) Weapon Focus Rapier + Swash Finesse + Arcane Strike
8) Fencing Grace
9) Energy Attunement
So his new favorite moves at the following levels are
at
1-2 - he's casting grease
3 - Entangle
4-5 - Create Pit
6-7 - Strangling Hair
8-9 - Monstrous Physique I Transfiguration I Dex Striker
10-11 - Monstrous Physique II and Obsidian Flow comes online. Probably take Monstrous Physique at 10 retrain and then take Obsidian Flow at 11.
After that we continue upgrading monstrous physique unless there are no smaller forms and things like Roaming pit start to come online.
To my knowledge there are no tiny or diminutive monstrous humanoids. Their mention in spells is future-proofing only. There are some tiny magical beasts with hands e.g. the xiao, flying monkeys. They can talk so I suspect they can cast. Several small monstrous humanoids do exist.
Not all combat maneuvers are limited by size and tiny creatures use dex for their CMB by default. Reach would be an issue, but you don't take AoOs when you're invisible so do that.
A single floating feat doesn't sound like much but if you pick up Dirty Fighting it translates as 'whichever combat maneuver you want'. Or combat casting or arcane strike. Also as a low level sorcerer you don't have a lot of options - with your current thoughts maybe grease and mage armor at 1st, which makes your combat options something like cast grease, acid splash, or stab someone with a longspear - and martial flex gives you more options.
Since the first transmutation spell you're likely to get is entangle at 3rd level you won't need spell focus until then. I'd suggest something like
1: dirty fighting
3: spell focus (trans.)
5: varisian tattoo (trans.), or steadfast personality if you're feeling defensive.
7: dex to damage feats via swash.
8: improved disarm
9: energy attunement
11; quicken spell
Once you have +6 BAB at level 9 you could martial flex greater disarm if you want, and if you're an eltdritch scrapper of course.
If you've gone off the combat maneuvers now then
That is a sad time indeed.
On the otherhand using beastshape IV to turn into a Xiao would actually be stronger than turning into a diminutive monstrous creature. so
Level 14 is gonna be a fun level xD
Well with Disarm I'd have to go dirty fighting at 7 Fencing Grace at 8 and improved disarm at 9?
Or go scrapper then I wouldn't have to pick up improved disarm I guess, that still doesn't seem like a massive benefit to me.
It would mean at like level 8 I could take a standard to cast monstrous Physique into a small creature and taken improved disarm/arcane strike as a move. On the other hand I could just take Arcane Strike at 7 and Fencing Grace at 8.
I'm kinda turning off the disarm thing the more I think about it honestly.
Mage Armour is an interesting option since with the bloodline arcana that is actually a +5 to AC. given like probably only for 2/3 rounds.
I do like your re-arrangement of feats though.
I'm seeing a few options
Eldritch Scrapper
1: dirty fighting
3: spell focus (trans.)
5: varisian tattoo (trans.)
7: Swash Finesse, Weapon Focus, Arcane Strike
8: Fencing Grace (can't take arcane strike at this level or I would swap em)
9: energy attunement
Use Flex for disarm if I see someone I want to disarm
None Eldritch Scrapper, none combat maneuver
1: Noble Scion
3: Spell Focus
5: Varisian Tattoo
7: Swash Finesse, Weapon Focus, Arcane Strike
8: Fencing Grace
9: energy attunement
One thing I'm wondering is would this character be better off using their natural attacks.
So I'mma math it out here.
at level 9 BAB6 + Size1 + Dex5(+2 belt +2 Monstrous) + Enhancement +2 (amulet)
thats +14 to hit and I've given up the amulet slot but 5 attacks if he is a Charda. doing 1D6+2 + 1D4+2 x4
as opposed to
BAB6 + Size1 + Dex5 + WF1 + AS2 + Enhacement1
thats +16 1D4+8 crit range 15-20
Conclusion - both options are horrid. Oh dear xD
when we hit Xiao though
BAB11 + Size2 + Dex11 (+8 size +6 enhancement +2 level) + WF1 + AS3 + Enhacement 3
thats +31/26 1D3+17 crit range 15-20
A vast improvement what do we think? is that worth the investment. Of course at at when you hit the Eldritch Cap its a wash. But I'm thinking maybe it worth delaying the feat investment a little bit? Also I'd guess its worth grabbing Combat reflexes because parrying would really boost this build a lot.
The disarm build would of course have disarming to do, but then how much disarming will he actually get to do?
EDIT: also the Xiao AC is pretty nice too
10 + Size 2 + Dex 11 + Natural 3 + Mage Armour 4 + Ring of Deflection 3 + Amulet of Natural Armour 3 + Insight 1 = 37
in fact we could drop a singular bonus off the ring and the amulet and save 20K. Depends what else the character would want to buy.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: Noble scion isn't actually bringing anything to the table xD improved initiative would be better. me thinks.
Okay
Time out
This Monkey fencer is so far from my concept I just described it to a friend as a controller sorcerer whose a tree man who becomes a tiny swashbuckling flying wizard monkey.
Is that not kind of ridiculous and bazaar?
I think maybe the Eldritch Knight thing was a bad idea after all. Trying to make the most of my new martial abilities whilst remaining a control caster is really complicated, and it what brought about this weird messy monkey thing. All the prestige class actually achieved was weakening the control casting aspect of the build and muddying the concept in return for a decently powerful Dex based martial.
Mayhaps I need to take a break and come back to this with fresh eyes.
Sorry for wasting all y'alls time. If someone else wants it though a Dex Based Sorc/Swash/EK using beast shape IV seems like it has the potential to be a pretty powerful build. Although I'd hazard that Sorc/Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple/EK transfiguring with form of a Dragon III is still probably stronger than this. 16Str + 4 levels + 2DD + 4 rage + 6 belt + 10 size = 42 Strength before wishes. lol.
Okay - so I took the idea to my group and most of them actually thought it sounded kewl so ignore my little panic. Here is what I've got.
Sorc8/Swash1/EK10/Sorc1
Str: 8
Dex: 16 (3 in here)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 18 (2 levels go in here)
Feats
1) Improved Initiative
3) Spell Focus Transmutation
5) Varisian Tattoo
7) Energy Attunement
7) Blood Havoc
9) Swashbuckler Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier, Arcane Strike
10) Eldritch Knight - Bonus Feat - Fencing Grace
11) Extend Spell
13) Quicken Spell
15) -
17) -
19) -
1) Mage Armour, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Entangle, Snowball, Floating Disk.
2) Create Pit, Stone Call, Barkskin, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, False Life.
3) Strangling Hair, Ice Spear, Haste, Heroism, Monstrous Deformation, Speak with plants.
4) Wandering Star Motes, Emergency Force Sphere (retrained from Monstrous Transformation II at 12), Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, command plants.
5) Hungry Pit, Overlandflight (retrain Beast Shape III at 14), Wall of Stone, Teleport.
6) Beast Shape IV, Dispel Magic Greater, Sirocco
7) Reverse Gravity, Limited Wish, Prismatic Spray (this is a guess)
8) Rift of Ruin, Temporal Stasis
9) Time Stop
He'd be a controller mostly with the potential for some transformation combat at 10 I've delayed EK for a couple levels because at level 8 it wasn't adding anything really and only takes off properly when you get to 14. At which point he'd be a pretty powerful melee combatant with some still potent casting abilities. Also how fun is Rift of Ruin? its like the pit to end all pits.
Also I'm kind of just assuming that there will be a good small magical beast that works. So any advice in that regard would be kewl.
Small monstrous humanoid you mean? A charda is your basic blender with 4 claw attacks and a bite, various others have climb, swim or burrow speeds. No flyers though.
There's loads of small magical beasts. Just one which might be able to wield a rapier and cast spells, the muckdweller, but the paizo version moves at 10' which is crippling. Unlike the tiny xiao or ratlings.
Rift of ruin: for when you've finished pretending you're not chaotic evil.
No I mean a small magical beast, for him to use with Beast Shape III turning into a since being a small magical beast is actually better than being a small Monstrous Humi. I've found some 3rd party stuff but no first party yet. Which is a bumber.
Its not really a big enough bonus to make the character combat effective to use Monstrous transformation I for a small form. Hmmm I'll see if I can work out a way for Mukdwellers to work. I'm thinking maybe I take Overland Flight as my first 5th level, and Beast Shape III to make Mukdweller work. Which means delaying Hungry Pit till like.. twelve? I think the maths a bit foggy on when I get spells of the top of my head.
Tis a real shame moongoose folk are 3rd party.
Also I've just remembered Obsidian Flow is a thing, sooo of Wandering Star Motes and Black Tentacles which would you swap out?
Its a ... means to an end <.< >.>
Black tentacles is better than WSM, but WSM is more different to obsidian flow. Reflex saves and CMD are more correlated than Will saves and Reflex saves, and both black tentacles and obsidian flow need the ground handy, you can't cast them while flying or swimming. On that basis I'd get WSM and obsidian flow.
BTW, given the cost of a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell I'd get quicken spell at 11. The spells you'll want to extend at level 11 are all 3rd level or lower. Quickened obscuring mist - or at level 12 quickened mirror image - are respectable panic buttons. If you're thinking extended overland flight, I think at level 12-13 two 5th level slots are about the same cost as one 6th level slot.
I was thinking along similar lines, thanks avr. My logic was the situations wherein I'd cast one I'd want to cast the other too, I.e they overlap.
Oh good idea there two will do a swap then :P
Any idea for 15, 17 and 19?
You need one more metamagic feat before you get spell perfection, maybe encouraging (?) spell?. The one which increases morale bonuses of the metamagiced spell by one, e.g. heroism. If getting a feat for just one spell seems a bit much, then persistent spell to help lower level spells stick, or piercing spell because everything has SR now, or fleeting spell to remove your own battlefield control spells when they get in the way sounds good.
At level 19 you could pick up another of the above, or you could get spell penetration perhaps.
What spell would you pick for perfect spell in that case? Cause my list isn't grabbing me.
There is something to be said for Magical lineage on Temporal Stasis I guess. Then I'd have a Persistent Temporal Stasis with a DC+2.
an Encouraging Extended Heroism would be 6 hours +3 to hit save and skills, which isn't too bad. Honestly Fleeting Spell has some obvious merit particularly for reverse gravity and hungry pit but then I'm at a loss as what to do with the perfect spell. I guess it might be good with Emergency Force Sphere too. Same goes for piercing spell although I do have a pretty large chunk of list that ignores spell resistance. with Strangling hair, Obsidian Flow, the pits and the rift.
With heroism the attack routine caps at
39/34/29 or 40/40/35/30 with haste for 1D3+20 x2 15-20 coming off 44AC
which is actually decently scary given spell critical, however I'm not sure the encouraging heroism is making much of a difference there.
given I'm hitting average CR20 AC on 2/2/7 and 2/2/2/6 already.
and I could get a Pale Green Prism.
Look at free quicken spell on the spell of your choice 5th level or less - maybe some polymorph spell if you keep any, maybe dimension door, or even hungry pit. The 3rd metamagic doesn't have to be one you put on your perfect spell. Though casting a persistent hungry pit at one enemy and a quickened hungry pit at another has its merits.
You know you're right perfect spell hungry pit isn't a bad idea and at 19 I might grab conjuration focus to boost the DC of it and the rift a little bit assuming +3 from level a belt and 3 manuals thats 30 Cha, so 27 on the pits and 29 on the rift, which is reasonable as just a part of the arsenal.
So we're looking at
11) Quickened
13) Extend
15) Fleeting
17) Perfect Hungry Pit.
19) Conjuration Focus.