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Hello everyone!
A thing I read on another thread spun an idea in my head... villain points!
It's true that lone enemies in Pathfinder are generally not a big threat due to action economy, and it's a pity because the idea of the "final boss" fight is very cinematic.
In D&D 5e they try to fix this with legendary actions (and the likes): I find that a very cool idea, though I don't know if it really works or not.
So, I thought about a way to introduce a similar thing in Pathfinder: giving some special enemies their own Hero Points - Villain Points!
The rules would be similar to the PC counterpart; in particular:
Act Out of Turn: ok, helps with action economy.
Bonus: ok, should help the villain making his escape or passing save-or-suck checks, giving him survaivability.
Extra Action: ok, helps with action economy.
Inspiration: doesn't make sense, removed.
Recall: ok, gives one more trick to the villains, though they usually don't fight more than once during the day.
Reroll: ok, helps survaivability.
Special: being total GM fiat, I'm wary about this. I'd say this kind of usage is removed.
Cheat Death: this one works differently. Cheating death but falling unconscious is useless to the lone NPC, so I'm inclined towards toning up this option: the villain can ignore and remove all hostile conditions, or heal up to half his maximum HP.
The number of Villain Points available would depend on the importance of the enemy: a mini-boss will probably have 1 (thus denying him the Cheat Death ability), while the campaign final boss ultra-BBEG could have 3, or even more.
As a GM, I would be careful about using rerolls and bonuses offensively, as the problem with lone bosses is that they are usually lethal enough on their own, but could miss the opportunity to much due to lack of actions and/or a poorly rolled save. On the other hand, succesfully landing their signature ability on a particularly resilient PC, or making an expecially deadly attack just before falling, could be interesting options.
What do you think about it?
To some extent, villain points are outlined in APG:
Although NPCs do not generally receive hero points, there are ways that they can use these mechanics. A number of spells and magic items, as well as the Hero’s Fortune feat, grant hero points to a character. Such hero points should be used sparingly, and should be reserved for major villains or truly important characters.
Alternatively, a pool of 3 villain points might be worth a +1 CR template - if used cleverly.
I had missed that...
Still, I would like to know if anyone has used them, and how did it go.
I have allowed important plot villains to have their own hero points and it helps with one dealing with unexpected things when you don't want him dead yet, and two keeping the party on their toes.
I recently had an idea for "Loser Points" where a player can beseech the DM for a re-roll or other break but thereby grants the DM the ability to make a re-roll for a monster later on.
Another thing you could check into might be using the Mythic rules to amp up your big monster. There are mythic surges, mythic abilities, and even mythic templates which include stuff like being able to act twice in a round. Going overboard with this could probably make the players feel like the PCs are being oppressed, but used sparingly the idea of "regular folks" taking on mythic threats could probably be sort of exciting.
To some extent, villain points are outlined in APG:
Although NPCs do not generally receive hero points, there are ways that they can use these mechanics. A number of spells and magic items, as well as the Hero’s Fortune feat, grant hero points to a character. Such hero points should be used sparingly, and should be reserved for major villains or truly important characters.Alternatively, a pool of 3 villain points might be worth a +1 CR template - if used cleverly.
Anyone who uses pre-printed material is, I suspect, unlikely to find Hero Point spells, items, or feats granted to an NPC. I like the idea of adding 3 HP to major nasties, but accounting for it by adding +1 CR.
Or you could even give them to an unnamed monster from the Bestiary, if you have decently-optimized PCs & a need to up the CR.
I recently had an idea for "Loser Points" where a player can beseech the DM for a re-roll or other break but thereby grants the DM the ability to make a re-roll for a monster later on.
Another thing you could check into might be using the Mythic rules to amp up your big monster. There are mythic surges, mythic abilities, and even mythic templates which include stuff like being able to act twice in a round. Going overboard with this could probably make the players feel like the PCs are being oppressed, but used sparingly the idea of "regular folks" taking on mythic threats could probably be sort of exciting.
That's a lot like what I am working adapting from the Cortex system with its trouble pool.
@bitter lily - In my limited experience with Paizo APs, the encounters usually seem to be the right CR though sometimes the NPCs could use a tweak (like I update the Rogues in Council of Thieves to Unchained Rogues and maybe apply an interesting archetype)
@bitter lily - In my limited experience with Paizo APs, the encounters usually seem to be the right CR though sometimes the NPCs could use a tweak (like I update the Rogues in Council of Thieves to Unchained Rogues and maybe apply an interesting archetype)
Whereas, I've complained on these boards because the encounters are not! LOL
What I've heard is that the APs are written assuming 4 players with mediocre skills. If you have highly optimized characters, or more than 4 characters, or characters of certain classes... I've got a hunter with a tiger and a highly-optimized bladebound magus in my party. Both of those theoretically don't change the APL, but in practice really do add +1 APL between them. (At least.) If I don't up the CRs to compensate, the magus, or the magus & tiger together, kill the nasty in the first round, and the other players are bored. Better to fiddle and make the game fun for everyone.
Fiddling could mean adding minions to a scene, to give less optimized characters someone to beat up on. But it could mean (I'm learning here) giving one baddie "luck" that could let it survive a bad blow from the magus long enough for everyone else to pile on. As an example.
You can also check out Mythic. Mythic gives the enemy more options, such as extra standard action, extra move action, surging a die roll by 1d6 (or more), etc.
Along those lines the naruto D20 system has templates to allow alot of this type stuff.
@bitter_lily - That's interesting. How many PCs are in your party?
To Devilkiller: I originally had 3 -- a highly optimized bladebound magus; a decently-built hunter with a tiger; and a druid waiting sadly for his build to pay off. The magus was stealing the show, hands-down. And supposedly, this was an under-APL-4 party that needed help facing an AP. So I let the other two players add subsidiary characters, one level behind -- but what the party got was a heavens shaman & a life oracle. So I was still having trouble coming up with encounters that would challenge everyone. (The magus was still stealing the show quite handily.) That's when I heard about a wonderful doc: The GM's Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters. I've been living by it since, and doing fairly well (in my own estimation). I am sooooo grateful to the author, Alex Augunas!
Ok, I suspect that the philosophy and approach we have on the CR of encounters might be quite different, but that's OK. Anyhow, we both probably agree that "big" enemies, especially ones who might be encountered alone, could use some help surviving long enough to create an interesting encounter. Maybe some "Villain Points" would help. Certainly Mythic templates could though some DMs might feel dirty using Mythic monsters on non-Mythic PCs. Stuff like the ability to act twice in a round can really help a lone monster though.
On a different note, redesigning many or most of the encounters in an AP sounds like a depressing prospect to me since the reason I'd run an AP would probably be to save on prep time. If your group really needs more encounters at APL+4 or whatever I wonder if there could be a market for "Extra Tough" APs of some sort. Maybe it wouldn't be a big enough market for Paizo to bother with, but perhaps some 3rd party could fill a niche. I've certainly seen plenty of folks complain that APs are too easy. Would you be interested in such a product? Maybe the publisher could be "Meatgrinder Games" or "Killer DM".
On a different note, redesigning many or most of the encounters in an AP sounds like a depressing prospect to me since the reason I'd run an AP would probably be to save on prep time. If your group really needs more encounters at APL+4 or whatever I wonder if there could be a market for "Extra Tough" APs of some sort. Maybe it wouldn't be a big enough market for Paizo to bother with, but perhaps some 3rd party could fill a niche. I've certainly seen plenty of folks complain that APs are too easy. Would you be interested in such a product? Maybe the publisher could be "Meatgrinder Games" or "Killer DM".
Oh, it is depressing. While I don't think I'd like a "Killer DM" product, an "Extra Tough AP" could be truly useful. Preferably with built-in scaling. "There are so many monsters of this type in this room, plus the bonus from the box" where the box lists extra mobs for a variety of APLs. (If I'm discovering due to whatever method that my party is an effective APL-5, but the story expects APL-4, it would tell me how many mobs to add for the extra CR.) And ideally, it would avoid single-boss encounters from the get-go!
"Killer DM" was just a proposed name for the "Extra Tough" product. I guess maybe it would scare people off though. Old Dungeon magazine adventures often included a "Scaling the Adventure" sidebar, and maybe that could be helpful in an AP too, like, "If you think your group needs a higher CR add these monsters/templates/environmental factors". When I run a prefab adventure I want everything there for me in advance.
Anyhow, Big Boss encounters are so iconic that I think it could be not only tough to remove them from games entirely but also sort of restrictive in terms of story development. It seems like if the BBs are going to hold up long enough to provide an interesting encounter without instantly slaughtering PCs they probably need some defensive scaling that PCs wouldn't have, perhaps advancing defense faster than offense. I suppose that a potential problem with that is the expectation that BBs will play by the same rules as the PCs and anything else would be "unfair" (especially if the BB is an NPC with class levels)
A GM of mine uses Villain points, and I've taken to using them as well in campaigns.
Other things they can do include:
Take half damage from a single attack
Force another creature to re-roll
Cancel a hero point being used (Opposed Charisma checks are made)
Also, if any of the PCs are evil or do evil things, they may gain villain points in place of hero points occasionally.
Bitter Lilly has it right: The APs are written under the assumption of 4 PCs of 15-point buy, of average player ability (both in terms of character build sophistication and general skill at playing an RPG).
If you have more than 4 PCs, and/or your PCs have pets/cohorts, and/or you're using 20- or 25-point buy, and/or your PCs are hightly optimized, and/or you have veteran players who know to expect twists and turns, then you'll need to increase the level of challenge in some way to make the game interesting.
Some things I do in this situation (mix and match)...
- Give the bad guys maximum hp for their hit dice
- Give the bad guys some minions, or increase the number of minions in the encounter
- Give the bad guys the Advanced Simple template
- Give the bad guys (more) character levels
- Give the bad guys DR and/or SR if they don't have it already; increase it if they do.
- Give the bad guys some Mythic abilites... Dual Initiaitve is particularly useful when the PCs fight a single boss.
You can also pull a few tricks from D&D 5e, such as the Legendary Creatures rules. I particularly like Lair Actions.
Sure, if you have more than 4 PCs or they have higher point buy you should expect that adjustments might be needed. Bitter Lily had just 3 PCs though. It sounds like some groups need tougher APs. If only I were a little more creative and not a little lazy perhaps I'd write some. At least I'd try to include some sidebars for scaling the encounters.
I've been talking about trying 5e but haven't gotten around to it yet. A friend of mine is eager to try it since he likes to use Roll20 and they seem to be adding a lot of 5e content lately.