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None of your arguments actually address any of my complaints. Nor do they counter what I would consider solutions.
Do you think a Fighter is approximately as useful in a level 20 party as a Wizard? I'm not asking if they're balanced, I'm saying approximately as useful.
I don't need Fighters that are perfectly balanced to Wizards, what I want is for them to not feel redundant and useless. Right now they feel redundant and useless.
Are you opposed to making them unique and useful?
Do you think that the players who want a 100% mundane fighter feel redundant and useless? Are they having fun?
How many parties get to 20th level, anyway? Never seen one.
If they wanted a martial with spells and supernatural abilities, there are many such. So, they CHOOSE to play a 100% martial. Why cant they make that choice?
Its not like they didnt know and played for 19 more levels without a chance to change characters. I mean, sure, some parties do get to 20th level, but hardly with the same starting characters. If he felt useless, then he could refuse raise dead or ask the DM to switch out.
When we played thru TotRL, out fighter was the most dangerous member of the party. Buffed up, sure.
which complaints? That you, personally, feel redundant and useless playing a Fighter in a 20th level game? Then, I suggest you play one of the other 34 classes.
What is your solution? Cant we leave one class of 35 for players that want a pure mundane class? What is wrong with that?
If the best solution you have is to not play the class, that means there's something wrong with the class.
You're right, I avoid the class. I love playing simple classes from time to time, but Fighter is dull, boring and offers nothing as a class. I WANT to play Fighters. The idea of a zero-magic class appeals to me. Why is it so sacrilege to ask for one that is actually useful in a world of wizards/clerics?
I wish for the same thing for the Rogue class.
Also, to reiterate, you're opposed to my ideas without even knowing what they are. Which by the way, does not incentivize me to bother sharing them. You, along with several other people in this thread, seem opposed to change based on the mere fact that it is change.
There is one class out of 35 that's pretty much 100% mundane.
I count Fighter, Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
There is one class out of 35 that's pretty much 100% mundane.I count Fighter, Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
What about Cavalier, Brawler, and Slayer?
What about Cavalier, Brawler, and Salyer?There is one class out of 35 that's pretty much 100% mundane.I count Fighter, Swashbuckler, Rogue, and Gunslinger.
That too. I keep forgetting the Cavalier class exists; I've never seen anybody play one.
So that's 8 classes that are pretty much wholly mundane.
I call this pretty awesome.Why should they have to switch? The concept of a mundane hero is an awesome one. It's 3.P's execution that is lacking, not the premise.It's as awesome as playing a character in a modern-day military game who can't use guns.
Very nice compilation. But seriously Saitama is very high into Epic Levels.
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if fighters could do the same things wizards can do why would wizards ever bother training to be a wizard.
Wizards don't do the same things fighters can do. To even get close they need long periods of time and simple dispelling magic can instantly reverse everything.
Wizards are not as good at fighting as fighters that has pretty much been agreed. The beefs people have with wizards is that they can do other things, teleport etc. Why this is a problem mystifies me but there you are.
Even I don't want Fighters doing the same things as Wizards.
BUT, right now Wizards do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter [starting at a certain level, certainly by 9 in my opinion.]
So shouldn't you be asking that question in reverse, The Sword?
Since Wizards can do the same things Fighters can do why do Fighters even bother training to be Fighters? [If your answer is that most people never get high enough level to have that kind of power as wizards, that's a fair answer but does nothing for Player Characters.]
What exactly are your expectations then? and lets maybe break them down by level, because everyone is going back and forth about 20th level play which is the most idiosyncratic area of this game given how highly DM and player dependent it can be.
I don't think there's any serious debate that Fighters can do very well in the low level 1-6 games and remain competitive in the 7-12 area where 90 percent of campaigns terminate. Lets try keeping discussion to these two areas and see if we can come to a consenus about 11th level and below.
Everyone cannot have their fantasies in a single system.
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Even I don't want Fighters doing the same things as Wizards.
BUT, right now Wizards do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter [starting at a certain level, certainly by 9 in my opinion.]
So shouldn't you be asking that question in reverse, The Sword?
Since Wizards can do the same things Fighters can do why do Fighters even bother training to be Fighters? [If your answer is that most people never get high enough level to have that kind of power as wizards, that's a fair answer but does nothing for Player Characters.]
What exactly are your expectations then? and lets maybe break them down by level, because everyone is going back and forth about 20th level play which is the most idiosyncratic area of this game given how highly DM and player dependent it can be.
I don't think there's any serious debate that Fighters can do very well in the low level 1-6 games and remain competitive in the 7-12 area where 90 percent of campaigns terminate. Lets try keeping discussion to these two areas and see if we can come to a consenus about 11th level and below.
Well past level 6 martial classes need abilities that give them versatility. That includes combat versatility. Tome of Battle has a number of useful maneuvers that allow martials to have versatility on combat whether through moving through shadows, shrugging off damage, gaining blindsense, ignoring DR and hardness, restoring allies hp, running up walls, granting morale bonuses to checks, replacing saves, just plain not dying, using tactics to buff your allies and debuff enemies, etc. This is the kind of range of things a level 7+ marital should be getting access to.
Very nice compilation. But seriously Saitama is very high into Epic Levels.I call this pretty awesome.Why should they have to switch? The concept of a mundane hero is an awesome one. It's 3.P's execution that is lacking, not the premise.It's as awesome as playing a character in a modern-day military game who can't use guns.
Nope. Compare Saitama to the ridiculousness of 9th level spellcasting.
Saitama caps around level 20. MAYBE Level 20 Mythic 1 at most.
Level 20 1d2 Crusader. It's pretty obvious he has an Aura of Chaos really if you think about it.
For everybody who insists that level 20 is a legendary thing, I just wanted to point out that it exists. If a game I'm running doesn't reach at least 20, I feel like I haven't done something right.
They could be using the ISWG classification of levels 16+.
Well past level 6 martial classes need abilities that give them versatility. That includes combat versatility. Tome of Battle has a number of useful maneuvers that allow martials to have versatility on combat whether through moving through shadows, shrugging off damage, gaining blindsense, ignoring DR and hardness, restoring allies hp, running up walls, granting morale bonuses to checks, replacing saves, just plain not dying, using tactics to buff your allies and debuff enemies, etc. This is the kind of range of things a level 7+ marital should be getting access to.Even I don't want Fighters doing the same things as Wizards.
BUT, right now Wizards do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter [starting at a certain level, certainly by 9 in my opinion.]
So shouldn't you be asking that question in reverse, The Sword?
Since Wizards can do the same things Fighters can do why do Fighters even bother training to be Fighters? [If your answer is that most people never get high enough level to have that kind of power as wizards, that's a fair answer but does nothing for Player Characters.]
What exactly are your expectations then? and lets maybe break them down by level, because everyone is going back and forth about 20th level play which is the most idiosyncratic area of this game given how highly DM and player dependent it can be.
I don't think there's any serious debate that Fighters can do very well in the low level 1-6 games and remain competitive in the 7-12 area where 90 percent of campaigns terminate. Lets try keeping discussion to these two areas and see if we can come to a consenus about 11th level and below.
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Well past level 6 martial classes need abilities that give them versatility. That includes combat versatility. Tome of Battle has a number of useful maneuvers that allow martials to have versatility on combat whether through moving through shadows, shrugging off damage, gaining blindsense, ignoring DR and hardness, restoring allies hp, running up walls, granting morale bonuses to checks, replacing saves, just plain not dying, using tactics to buff your allies and debuff enemies, etc. This is the kind of range of things a level 7+ marital should be getting access to.Even I don't want Fighters doing the same things as Wizards.
BUT, right now Wizards do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter [starting at a certain level, certainly by 9 in my opinion.]
So shouldn't you be asking that question in reverse, The Sword?
Since Wizards can do the same things Fighters can do why do Fighters even bother training to be Fighters? [If your answer is that most people never get high enough level to have that kind of power as wizards, that's a fair answer but does nothing for Player Characters.]
What exactly are your expectations then? and lets maybe break them down by level, because everyone is going back and forth about 20th level play which is the most idiosyncratic area of this game given how highly DM and player dependent it can be.
I don't think there's any serious debate that Fighters can do very well in the low level 1-6 games and remain competitive in the 7-12 area where 90 percent of campaigns terminate. Lets try keeping discussion to these two areas and see if we can come to a consenus about 11th level and below.
In other words, you are looking for magical powers. There are composite martial classes that do at least some of what you're looking for. whether it's magi, rangers, monks, etc. Fighters get the option of combat versatility due to their sheer number of combat feats. Fighters are the non-magical warrior heroes and many of us like them as they are. If you want a martial with magical powers, there are plenty of options to do so. Why do you insist that the Fighter incorporate these?
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In other words, you are looking for magical powers.
Only a single thing on that list was magical (moving through shadows).
Anzyr may be looking for magical powers, I am not. However out of that list he provided the only actual magical power I see is 'moving through shadows.'
I would qualify "not dying" "running up walls" like Spiderman, as well as ignoring DR and hardness as magical powers, among others, given that it takes magical powers for any other class to do these. They may or may not be spells, but they're pretty much on the same level of out of the ordinary.
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ignoring DR and hardnessI'm not confident this one is necessary, but it's not magical it's nothing more than becoming better at bypassing defenses.
given that it takes magical powers for any other class to do these.
That's right Kyrt, penetrating strike is not magical. Or perhaps the feat is just "too anime" and paizo have to allow it only to non-fighter because realism.
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I would qualify "not dying" ...as magical powers...
True Resolve (Ex)
At 17th level, a samurai can spend uses of his resolve to avoid death. If he has at least two uses of his resolve remaining, he can spend all of the daily uses of his resolve that he has available to him to avoid death. Regardless of the source of the attack that would have killed him, he is left alive, at –1 hit points (or lower if he was already below –1), unconscious, and stable.
It seems samurais were some kind of wizards all this time.
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Anzyr may be looking for magical powers, I am not. However out of that list he provided the only actual magical power I see is 'moving through shadows.'I would qualify "not dying" "running up walls" like Spiderman, as well as ignoring DR and hardness as magical powers, among others, given that it takes magical powers for any other class to do these. They may or may not be spells, but they're pretty much on the same level of out of the ordinary.
Smasher (Ex)
Benefit: Once per rage, whenever the barbarian makes an attack against an unattended object or a sunder combat maneuver, she can ignore the object’s hardness. This ability must be used before the attack roll or sunder check is made.
Flesh Wound (Ex)
Prerequisite: Barbarian 10Benefit: Once per rage, the barbarian can try to avoid serious harm from an attack. The barbarian must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the damage that would be dealt by the attack. The barbarian’s armor check penalty applies on this saving throw. If the save succeeds, the barbarian takes half damage from the attack and the damage is nonlethal. The barbarian must elect to use this ability after the attack roll is made, but before the damage is rolled.
Even the rogue has one of these in the CRB:
Resiliency (Ex)
Benefit: Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.
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SAITAMA AM ABLE TO TAKE RAGELANCEPOUNCE FROM BARBARIAN, NOT SMASH IN HALF ROUND. AM ALMOST EVEN ABLE DEAL DEEPS LIKE BARBAIAN AM DEALING.
BARBARIAN OF OPINION SAITAMA AM MIGHTYFINE VIABLE GOAL FOR ASPIRING FIGHTY.
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Also I wish people would stop putting Saitama forward as a viable goal. He's a gag character not meant to be taken seriously even by his creator.
It's like putting forth Bugs Bunny as an example of a Rogue.
Note, Saitama's power is literally just high physical ability scores and high base land speed.
While everyone else around him is doing super moves with fancy stuff and names, he just does a full-attack of normal attacks. Saitama is actually a great portrayal of a high level fighter in a world of mid-level initators
Note, Saiatama's power is literally just high physical ability scores and high base land speed.Also I wish people would stop putting Saitama forward as a viable goal. He's a gag character not meant to be taken seriously even by his creator.
It's like putting forth Bugs Bunny as an example of a Rogue.
And the ability to apply that high physical ability and mobility such as attacking on the move, wall/water running etc.
Also very high saves all across the board.
Easy in 3.5, you can do that if you make outrageous skill checks.
These rules were introduced in books after Core, epic handbook says they work pre-epic.http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSkills.htm
If you can make DC 90 Balance checks, you can walk on water.
You can walk up a wall DC 70/Ceiling 100 even if both perfectly smooth.
Jump should have an epic thingy, but it doesn't.
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Fighters can do a wide range of things that are extraordinary. Using feats and archetypes. They are getting twice as many feats as most other characters. Feats let you do cool things. Blind fight for instance. They don't let you do everything, but then again neither should they.
Anything else is for mixed martial caster classes of which there are plenty to choose.
Regarding the tiers and media characters how did you decide where to put people?
Surely demi-God status is what mythic is for? The ability to not die and/or high star points/templates.
Sorry for sort of throwing that here, but I was considering shaving 1 spell slot per level off the maximum for every caster - so wizards top at 3 spell slots per level (before bonuses), sorcerers at 5, etc. Do you think this would be a meaningful limitation on casters at mid-levels by making them be more conservative with spells without making them too weak, and what do you think about the ideas in Unchained?
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Surely demi-God status is what mythic is for? The ability to not die and/or high star points/templates.
Why do martials have to be mythic to do demi-god status stuff while caster don't need a single mythic rank to do god status stuff?
Surely demi-God status is what mythic is for? The ability to not die and/or high star points/templates.Why do martials have to be mythic to do demi-god status stuff while caster don't need a single mythic rank to do god status stuff?
Because he takes weaker physical attributes and reduced hp, and protection in order to be able to use magic. It isn't that it's Demi-God equivalent stuff it's that it's magic, which by definition breaks reality. Casters can also use magic to make fighters better. It's called teamwork. Haste, fly, magic weapon, keen edge, enlarge, are all much better cast on the fighter than on the wizard.