My group is trying to build characters and we're looking for an official answer.
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My understanding is that Firearms are super rare outside of Alkenstar. That said if there is any place else that Gunslingers might gravitate toward it would be Numeria.
I'd recommend you do what makes it work best for your game. If you have a player that wants to be a gunslinger throw a retired Gunslinger in Torch who now sells and makes guns and teaches shooting to those interested. Toss another in Starfall who gets harassed by the Technic League, but they never really go hard after him because his guns aren't 'real' tech.
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We left that unsaid since not every GM is into using firearms in games... even in one like Iron Gods, where they're still not a natural thematic fit.
That said, the base assumption we make for all our adventures is that firearms, while rare, are available in the same way magic items or other pricy purchases are available—depending on the cost and the size of the city and, most important of all, upon whether or not the GM says they're for sale.
The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.
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The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.
Yeah, those NPCs weren't the best world-building decision.
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The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.Yeah, those NPCs weren't the best world-building decision.
Being the developer of said adventure, I respectfully disagree. Said "gunslinger mooks" are intended to be a specific group of scavengers who operate in a relatively specific part of Numearia and are not the type spread throughout the entire nation, and thus should not imply "guns everywhere."
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Being the developer of said adventure, I respectfully disagree. Said "gunslinger mooks" are intended to be a specific group of scavengers who operate in a relatively specific part of Numearia and are not the type spread throughout the entire nation, and thus should not imply "guns everywhere."The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.Yeah, those NPCs weren't the best world-building decision.
Then why are then not using something more advanced? They wouldn't find flintlock pistols in a Numerian ruin.
And Pathfinder has made crafting a firearm hard to do.
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Being the developer of said adventure, I respectfully disagree. Said "gunslinger mooks" are intended to be a specific group of scavengers who operate in a relatively specific part of Numearia and are not the type spread throughout the entire nation, and thus should not imply "guns everywhere."The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.Yeah, those NPCs weren't the best world-building decision.Then why are then not using something more advanced? They wouldn't find flintlock pistols in a Numerian ruin.
And Pathfinder has made crafting a firearm hard to do.
Because they're backwards feral scavangers who are using the pistol they gained as a bonus for being a 1st level gunslinger as a weapon. They're only 2nd level, and as 2nd level NPCs, they can't afford anything else. They can certainly afford the "gunslinger pistol" they're listed as having, which is a standard class feature and one we programmed into the class SPECIFICLALY because at 1st level, a gunslinger can't afford her signature weapon.
Further details on how this works can be found in the gunslinger class writeup in Ultimate Combat, under the "Gunsmith" class ability (which covers how a 1st level gunslinger starts with a gun and can maintain the gun without having to rely on buying one at the store or making it via Craft or other methods).
Because they're backwards feral scavangers who are using the pistol they gained as a bonus for being a 1st level gunslinger as a weapon. They're only 2nd level, and as 2nd level NPCs, they can't afford anything else. They can certainly afford the "gunslinger pistol" they're listed as having, which is a standard class feature and one we programmed into the class SPECIFICLALY because at 1st level, a gunslinger can't afford her signature weapon.Being the developer of said adventure, I respectfully disagree. Said "gunslinger mooks" are intended to be a specific group of scavengers who operate in a relatively specific part of Numearia and are not the type spread throughout the entire nation, and thus should not imply "guns everywhere."The AP also features several gunslinger mooks in the second adventure, suggesting that slug-throwers are moderately more common than they might otherwise be outside of Alkenstar.Yeah, those NPCs weren't the best world-building decision.Then why are then not using something more advanced? They wouldn't find flintlock pistols in a Numerian ruin.
And Pathfinder has made crafting a firearm hard to do.
This avoids the question.
Why do "backwards feral scavangers" have any levels in Gunslinger? Which is to say, why do they have any firearms at all?
Further details on how this works can be found in the gunslinger class writeup in Ultimate Combat, under the "Gunsmith" class ability (which covers how a 1st level gunslinger starts with a gun and can maintain the gun without having to rely on buying one at the store or making it via Craft or other methods).
Any game master wishing to run this Adventure path had better understand the firearm rules from Ultimate Combat pages 135 to 143.
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I'm toying with a somewhat different approach. I still need to write it up, but it's basically a merger of the Bolt Ace and Techslinger archetypes, which I like to call the Taboo Marksman.
A Taboo Marksman is typically a Kellid who's broken the tribal taboos against using tech. He's learning how to use dangerous technology, making do with what he can find. Because at first level, that isn't all that much.
The TM does not specialize in a single type of gun (unlike the Techslinger) because timeworn stuff eventually runs out and you can't count on getting the same type of gun to replace it.
The TM starts out with a crossbow, and that continues to be a viable weapon later on, because he learns to attach grenades to it (or anything else explosive that he finds) similar to a grenadier alchemist. He can also use it to hit touch AC sort of like a Bolt Ace (perhaps cheaper though, within point blank range?).
Eventually the TM gets better and better at maintaining and assembling guns, borrowing some tricks from the Technomancer PrC, and becomes able to recharge timeworn firearms and keep them from glitching, comparable to how gunslingers cope with misfires. He also learns to assemble volatile junk into grenades (cutting down on the typical 750gp price tag; perhaps making them harder to use by other people, like alchemist bombs, to keep it balanced).
I still want to work more "taboo" elements into it, to make it clear that this isn't just a tech geek archetype, but also very much a barbarian messing around with stuff his family thinks is evil.
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Because they're backwards feral scavangers who are using the pistol they gained as a bonus for being a 1st level gunslinger as a weapon. They're only 2nd level, and as 2nd level NPCs, they can't afford anything else. They can certainly afford the "gunslinger pistol" they're listed as having, which is a standard class feature and one we programmed into the class SPECIFICLALY because at 1st level, a gunslinger can't afford her signature weapon.This avoids the question.
Why do "backwards feral scavangers" have any levels in Gunslinger? Which is to say, why do they have any firearms at all?
Partially agreed. There needs to be some in universe explanation for where/how a given gunslinger acquired his broken gun. Whether it's an origin in Alkenstar, origin in some other community that for some reason has a gun manufacturing capacity, former apprentice to a wandering gunslinger/gunsmith (from Alkenstar) who handed down his old gun, whatever.
That said, it's not hard to believe gunslingers from elsewhere have gravitated towards Numeria and legends of fancier guns, allowing a plausible background for a few to pop up here and there.
Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
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Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
Exactly. The creature descriptions for these guys even mention that their guns look like they were peiced together from scrap.
Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
And then people cry "realism" about the Chainmail Bikini. It's the same logic.
Because they're backwards feral scavangers who are using the pistol they gained as a bonus for being a 1st level gunslinger as a weapon. They're only 2nd level, and as 2nd level NPCs, they can't afford anything else. They can certainly afford the "gunslinger pistol" they're listed as having, which is a standard class feature and one we programmed into the class SPECIFICLALY because at 1st level, a gunslinger can't afford her signature weapon.This avoids the question.
Why do "backwards feral scavangers" have any levels in Gunslinger? Which is to say, why do they have any firearms at all?
Partially agreed. There needs to be some in universe explanation for where/how a given gunslinger acquired his broken gun. Whether it's an origin in Alkenstar, origin in some other community that for some reason has a gun manufacturing capacity, former apprentice to a wandering gunslinger/gunsmith (from Alkenstar) who handed down his old gun, whatever.
That said, it's not hard to believe gunslingers from elsewhere have gravitated towards Numeria and legends of fancier guns, allowing a plausible background for a few to pop up here and there.
Those gunslingers in Lords of Rust are very much an exclusive gang, the Smilers. Not all of them are gunslingers, Ewhar Vress uses hatchets and Birdfood uses bow and arrow, but all except Marrow have the distinctive scars.
They rely on the pharmaceutical Soothe, which suggests they are from Numeria, because it requires a pharmaceutical lab to craft. Yet they lack a pharmaceutical lab. Therefore, I find it plausible that they are the remains of a gunslinging gang from an odd corner of Numeria. Perhaps the Technic League took over their lab, and the Smilers fled to Scrapwall to hide. The high-level gunslinger who taught the 2nd-level Smilers died in the tussle.
Valley of the Brain Collectors has a gunslinger outlaw, Nemgedder Janz, who fled from Alkenstar and replaced his gunpowder pistols with technological pistols. He was pursued by a gunslinger bounty hunter, Temma Benoche, who used enchanted gunpowder pistols.
James Jacobs said that gunpowder firearms are not a natural thematic fit Iron Gods, but the adventure path has a roleplaying purpose for including low-level enemies armed with firearms. The party will encounter powerful technological firearms at higher levels. As a GM, I add minor threats to teach the players about similar major threats they will face later. Meyanda's Inferno Pistol and the Smiler's pistols are the advance warnings that teach tactics against firearms.
This advance-warning reason, however, does not mean that gunpowder firearms have to be available to the PCs. That is GM's choice.
Though the Iron Gods adventure path does not have a built-in gunpowder theme, my players added it themselves. One chose to play a gunslinger. The fighter likes gunpowder grenades. The party recruited NPC Val Baine (aged to 17), and I made her a fusion of all the other player's classes to be the perfect sidekick, so she has a firearm, too. I declared that Gerrol Sonder, an adventurer who had accompanied Khonnir Baine on the fifth expedition, was a gunslinger and had taught the two gun-wielding party members how to use firearms.
And that theme gathered momentum. The PCs mastered mundane and magical crafting. In the rivalry against the Technic League, it is not the evil technologists against the good purists. Instead, it is the evil monopolists who hoard alien technology against the good craftsmen who teach homemade technology. They used the business rules out of Ultimate Campaign to create new workshops and smelters in Torch, filled with hired townsfolk and escaped slaves. My players are weaving a marvelous story of innovation that builds upon the adventure path.
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Why do "backwards feral scavangers" have any levels in Gunslinger? Which is to say, why do they have any firearms at all?
Gunslinger is a natural class fit for a region with lots of high tech firearms, first of all. And those firearms are expensive, so you generally can't afford them when you first start out. Certainly, from a game balance/design angle, you can't give a laser pistol to a 2nd level character, especially when multiples of those characters are encountered. They have to start somewhere. These gunslingers start at 1st level, like all gunslingers, and while they may hope to some day find a laser gun or get high enough level to buy one, until then they make do with what they can, by scavenging together the standard starter gunslinger pistol their class grants them.
"Backwards feral scavenger" is not in this case the same as "low-tech feral scavenger" but more talking about how they're not a polite part of society. Being a self-mutilating cannibal is a legitimate way to be backwards while still embracing technology enough to be able to build guns out of spare parts you found in the giant junkyard you live in. None of this makes gunpowder weapons any more common in Numeria than they already are.
Anyway, obviously that's enough justification to me to have put them into the adventure, and it looks like from other posts that folks are okay with it as well. Feel free to change that if you think it doesn't make sense, but don't expect me to agree with you.
In any event, I think that's enough said by me on the subject, so I'll be bowing out of the thread before it gets too hostile or argumentative. Please be good to each other, folks, and remember, regardless of what you read here or in a book or anything else... it's YOUR GAMEMASTER who gets the final say in things like "how available are guns in the game you're running for me?"
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I haven't seen anyone complaining about the Smilers being included in the adventure as Gunslingers. We're just observing that when an adventure prominently features a large gang whose rank and file members primarily use gunpowder firearms in combat, it creates a suggestion that firearms are, at the least, a known quantity in the region. Obviously, the more high-tech firearms are more emphasized, but I'm not sure I see a real distinction between 'Gunslinger is a natural thematic fit' and 'Guns are to some degree more common than in the rest of the world.'
(Incidentally, I think high-tech firearms would *totally* be balanced at a lower price point that accommodates availability to lower level characters, at least for the ones that do straightforward energy damage. Touch attacks doing energy damage are much easier to deal with in the existing mechanics of the game than reliably available touch attacks doing weapon damage.)
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Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
Why are there flintlock guns to be scavenged from Androffan wrecks? Where did they learn to make gunpowder? An ancient Androffan hobby book on horribly obsolete technologies? How did they translate it?
(Incidentally, I think high-tech firearms would *totally* be balanced at a lower price point that accommodates availability to lower level characters, at least for the ones that do straightforward energy damage. Touch attacks doing energy damage are much easier to deal with in the existing mechanics of the game than reliably available touch attacks doing weapon damage.)
Yes, it's easier for a gun to overcome DR/hardness than for a tech gun to over come energy resistance/hardness, and at close range they're more deadly because of the superior crit multiplier. Tech guns are strictly inferior unless you're spraying fast shots from a distance against enemies without resistances.
Why are there flintlock guns to be scavenged from Androffan wrecks? Where did they learn to make gunpowder? An ancient Androffan hobby book on horribly obsolete technologies? How did they translate it?Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
Ascalaphus's idea of exploding crossbow bolts (via the Bolt Ace archetype) has merit though. This would still require someone in the Smilers (or a captive craftsman) who has the secret of black powder.
That said, Mathmuse is also onto something:
James Jacobs said that gunpowder firearms are not a natural thematic fit Iron Gods, but the adventure path has a roleplaying purpose for including low-level enemies armed with firearms. The party will encounter powerful technological firearms at higher levels. As a GM, I add minor threats to teach the players about similar major threats they will face later. Meyanda's Inferno Pistol and the Smiler's pistols are the advance warnings that teach tactics against firearms.
This advance-warning reason, however, does not mean that gunpowder firearms have to be available to the PCs. That is GM's choice.
Incidentally, no one would have brought this up if a Smiler leader type was a gunslinger. One Alkenstar dissident who fell in with the wrong crowd would be much more credible then a whole gang of them. (Actually, one leader type gunslinger would have justified the scavenged guns of the lower level mooks.)
In any event, Mr. Jacobs has, understandably, bowed out of this argument.
Incidentally, I think high-tech firearms would *totally* be balanced at a lower price point that accommodates availability to lower level characters, at least for the ones that do straightforward energy damage. Touch attacks doing energy damage are much easier to deal with in the existing mechanics of the game than reliably available touch attacks doing weapon damage.)Yes, it's easier for a gun to overcome DR/hardness than for a tech gun to over come energy resistance/hardness, and at close range they're more deadly because of the superior crit multiplier. Tech guns are strictly inferior unless you're spraying fast shots from a distance against enemies without resistances.
This is a long running discussion on this sub-forum. :(
Nice thing about tech guns is you don't need rapid reload. :-)
Plus, you know they go "pew pew"
Nice thing about tech guns is you don't need rapid reload. :-)
Indeed, they can fire as fast as the trigger can be pulled - beware of high level fighters.
Plus, you know they go "pew pew"
IMHO, "coolness" has never been a game balance factor.
Uh, they scavenged them.
No need to over think it.
Why are there flintlock guns to be scavenged from Androffan wrecks? Where did they learn to make gunpowder? An ancient Androffan hobby book on horribly obsolete technologies? How did they translate it?
Yes, it's easier for a gun to overcome DR/hardness than for a tech gun to over come energy resistance/hardness, and at close range they're more deadly because of the superior crit multiplier. Tech guns are strictly inferior unless you're spraying fast shots from a distance against enemies without resistances.
(Incidentally, I think high-tech firearms would *totally* be balanced at a lower price point that accommodates availability to lower level characters, at least for the ones that do straightforward energy damage. Touch attacks doing energy damage are much easier to deal with in the existing mechanics of the game than reliably available touch attacks doing weapon damage.)
As far as I'm aware, they didn't scavenge them whole, but cobbled them together using parts they did scavenge.
I'll reiterate if you like, but no need to over think it. :-)
I'll reiterate if you like, but no need to over think it. :-)
Yes, but how did they get the Knowledge to do so.
Nice thing about tech guns is you don't need rapid reload. :-)Indeed, they can fire as fast as the trigger can be pulled - beware of high level fighters.
Plus, you know they go "pew pew"IMHO, "coolness" has never been a game balance factor.
No offense, but I don't really care what you think about it. :-)
Good old fashioned ingenuity. Knew a guy in high school, dumb as hell, but the guy could put together working machines with scraps around the farm. Built his own custom tractor using parts of a car and two other non working tractors.
I wouldn't dismiss the possibilities so handily, give a person time and a bunch of junk and they can make anything, imagination is the limit.
So no, I don't think it's so farfetched. :-)
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Well, what with Numerian fluids everywhere, who's to say the Smilers' guns run on gunpowder instead of some other volatile concoction?
Likewise, I wouldn't quite consider Soothe to be on par with the high-grade pharmaceuticals you'd make in a lab. Soothse seems more "meth lab" than "nanotech lab" to me.
But when I ran it I rebuilt them as unchained rogue/savage technogist builds. Scared the crap out of my players.
(And then came the level 2 orc barbarians. Rebuilding NPC goons can get scary.)
Gunpowder is easy. Getting it to detonate without blowing yourself up is the hard part. Having futuristic scrap that can stand up to the forces involved would go a long way.
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They got the knowledge when they acquired the Gunsmithing feat because they're gunslingers...I'll reiterate if you like, but no need to over think it. :-)Yes, but how did they get the Knowledge to do so.
This is circular reasoning.
How could they have become Gunslingers in the first place without access to firearms?
They got the knowledge when they acquired the Gunsmithing feat because they're gunslingers...I'll reiterate if you like, but no need to over think it. :-)Yes, but how did they get the Knowledge to do so.This is circular reasoning.
How could they have become Gunslingers in the first place without access to firearms?
Circular reasoning? Well, how about this.
There are laser guns in Numeria. All of them know about these guns. Their shape isn't exactly a secret, either. They even have a laser-rifle turret in their base, so they have something to base it off of!
They also have a character with Craft(alchemy) in the gang, so he can make gunpowder to begin with, though it probably took him trial and error.
So this leads to them trying to build firearms from junk, over and over again, with him giving them gunpowder, and eventually they got it right.
And even if that wasn't the case, it specifically says in the description of Gunshy that another gang filled him full of lead. So presumably regular firewalls in that area are not necessarily uncommon.
And if you don't like those answers? So what, at this point you seem to be looking for reasons for guns to not make sense in the region.
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Meanwhile in another section of the forum, an argument ensues over water being wet.
At what point did players refuse to suspend disbelief to just enjoy the game?
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And even if that wasn't the case, it specifically says in the description of Gunshy that another gang filled him full of lead. So presumably regular firearms in that area are not necessarily uncommon.
And if you don't like those answers? So what, at this point you seem to be looking for reasons for guns to not make sense in the region.
...That's precisely our point, actually. All the evidence *is* that firearms are not uncommon in Numeria, or at least less uncommon than they are anywhere but Alkenstar. But when we said that, citing the fact that the Smilers clearly consider gunpowder combat to be something like a commonplace, James Jacobs specifically stated that the Smilers were not intended to be official evidence of gunpowder weapons being more common in the region.
We're not trying to find reasons for guns to not make sense in the region. We're not saying the Smilers shouldn't have been Gunslingers. We're saying that *if* guns are not supposed to 'make sense' in the region, *than* the Smiler rank and file should not have been Gunslingers. Fundamentally, there is a contradiction between 'Guns are not intended to be any more common in Numeria than they are anywhere else on Golarion' and 'Almost every member of this scavenger gang uses a gunpowder pistol in combat, and backstory indicates they have tangled with at least one other gang with access to gunpowder'.
And even if that wasn't the case, it specifically says in the description of Gunshy that another gang filled him full of lead. So presumably regular firearms in that area are not necessarily uncommon.
And if you don't like those answers? So what, at this point you seem to be looking for reasons for guns to not make sense in the region.
...That's precisely our point, actually. All the evidence *is* that firearms are not uncommon in Numeria, or at least less uncommon than they are anywhere but Alkenstar. But when we said that, citing the fact that the Smilers clearly consider gunpowder combat to be something like a commonplace, James Jacobs specifically stated that the Smilers were not intended to be official evidence of gunpowder weapons being more common in the region.
We're not trying to find reasons for guns to not make sense in the region. We're not saying the Smilers shouldn't have been Gunslingers. We're saying that *if* guns are not supposed to 'make sense' in the region, *than* the Smiler rank and file should not have been Gunslingers. Fundamentally, there is a contradiction between 'Guns are not intended to be any more common in Numeria than they are anywhere else on Golarion' and 'Almost every member of this scavenger gang uses a gunpowder pistol in combat, and backstory indicates they have tangled with at least one other gang with access to gunpowder'.
*twitches* I just noticed that my autocorrect said 'firewalls' instead of 'firearms'. That's going to bug me.
Anyway, here's the thing. Yes, it says that. I agree! But the thing is, you're arguing at cross-purposes with JJ. Here are excerpts from what he said initially.
We left that unsaid since not every GM is into using firearms in games...That said, the base assumption we make for all our adventures is that firearms, while rare, are available in the same way magic items or other pricy purchases are available—depending on the cost and the size of the city and, most important of all, upon whether or not the GM says they're for sale.
Said "gunslinger mooks" are intended to be a specific group of scavengers who operate in a relatively specific part of Numearia and are not the type spread throughout the entire nation, and thus should not imply "guns everywhere."
Emphasis mine.
He's effectively said that firearms are common in that city and region, relatively speaking. But he's also saying that because he doesn't want to force that 'flavor' on GMs who don't like guns but don't mind laser guns (I'm one of these, as odd as it may seem), they chose not to directly address it.
Plus, 'guns everywhere' has dramatic impacts on proficiencies, prices, and other such aspects of the game. Technically, Golarian uses the rules for Emerging Guns, which still says they're rare, but generally available. It's actually right there in Ultimate Combat.
So anyway, again, my two cents.
Edit: This is my interpretation of what he's saying, not literally what he's saying. *shrugs* Sorry, habit there.
This is far too much for me. In german we call this "Regelfickerei".. Don't know how to translate it :)
I think there is some way, they can get to firearms, maybe the gang salvaged one from an adventurer and reverse engineered the rest, or the gang just bought the blueprints from the black market to equip new gang members with a basic weapon. As long as my players don't ask too much, I really don't care.
And if you feel you can't explain the appearance of firearms in that area, just leave them out.
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Good old fashioned ingenuity. Knew a guy in high school, dumb as hell, but the guy could put together working machines with scraps around the farm. Built his own custom tractor using parts of a car and two other non working tractors.
I wouldn't dismiss the possibilities so handily, give a person time and a bunch of junk and they can make anything, imagination is the limit.
So no, I don't think it's so farfetched. :-)
Yeah, prisoners have sometimes created (actually deadly) paper mache crossbows. Nature of the humans will always find a way to make something deadly xP
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Hopefully exposed nipples are next. :-)