|
In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once .. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
I've argued before that reading a very good book about a subject (a Pathfinder Chronicle) only gives you a +2 bonus, so you shouldn't get more than that from the help of people who know less than you do, or are less intelligent than you.
The person giving aid must be capable of making the same skill check, so must be trained in the Knowledge skill, edit: or have a class ability to make the check untrained, leaving aside the possibility that a lead character might ask for help to make DC 10.
There's a teamwork feat that lets you aid another in knowledge checks. I use it with my Inquisitor.
Collective Recollection
You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat attempts a trained Knowledge skill check while within 30 feet of you, you may attempt an aid another check as a free action to improve that ally's skill check. You must have at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill to be aided in order to use this feat. If you succeed at the aid another check, you automatically know any information your ally gains from the Knowledge check as if you had rolled the Knowledge check. Whether or not your aid another check is successful, you cannot attempt a Knowledge check to determine the same information as your ally after using this feat.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's a teamwork feat that lets you aid another in knowledge checks. I use it with my Inquisitor.
Collective Recollection
You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat attempts a trained Knowledge skill check while within 30 feet of you, you may attempt an aid another check as a free action to improve that ally's skill check. You must have at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill to be aided in order to use this feat. If you succeed at the aid another check, you automatically know any information your ally gains from the Knowledge check as if you had rolled the Knowledge check. Whether or not your aid another check is successful, you cannot attempt a Knowledge check to determine the same information as your ally after using this feat.
While I have seen some GMs infer that this feat means you can't Aid Another on knowledge checks, most of the GMs in our area don't read it that way.
We tend to read it as "everyone can make an Aid Another on knowledge checks, and the feat lets you do it better." In particular, the benefit of the feat is that you can make the aid check as a free action (perhaps even off your turn) and you know the same information your ally does without any communication necessary.
The feat does not say "this feat allows you to aid another on knowledge checks" or "you normally can't do that at all."
There's a teamwork feat that lets you aid another in knowledge checks. I use it with my Inquisitor.
Collective Recollection
You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat attempts a trained Knowledge skill check while within 30 feet of you, you may attempt an aid another check as a free action to improve that ally's skill check. You must have at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill to be aided in order to use this feat. If you succeed at the aid another check, you automatically know any information your ally gains from the Knowledge check as if you had rolled the Knowledge check. Whether or not your aid another check is successful, you cannot attempt a Knowledge check to determine the same information as your ally after using this feat.
While I have seen some GMs infer that this feat means you can't Aid Another on knowledge checks, most of the GMs in our area don't read it that way.
We tend to read it as "everyone can make an Aid Another on knowledge checks, and the feat lets you do it better." In particular, the benefit of the feat is that you can make the aid check as a free action (perhaps even off your turn) and you know the same information your ally does without any communication necessary.
The feat does not say "this feat allows you to aid another on knowledge checks" or "you normally can't do that at all."
Our DM had always ruled that knowledges couldn't be aided. same as Perception. There were just some things you had to do on your own. Finding this feat lets me aid another and as an Inquisitor, the other player doesn't need to have it.
Honestly, that makes it a pretty useful feat. Your interpretation... pretty much makes it useless. Using it as a free action is irrelevant, since the actual knowledge skill is described as:
Knowledge skills:
Monster Lore: You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
Check: In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster’s CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster’s CR or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Action: Usually none. In most cases, a Knowledge check doesn't take an action (but see “Untrained,” below).
Free action to aid... but a 'none' action to just roll knowledges. (The 'see untrained simply says you can't roll over DC10 if you are untrained). Free action doesn't really help much there.
Not needing to verbally commune the information... First of all, how did the character aid if there was no conversation... But mostly, as a teamwork feat, how useless would it be for 2+ characters to waste a non-combat feat on something like that?
Even the ability to aid giving a +2 is pretty weak sauce, but if the only ability is to not need to speak the knowledge, it's downright worthless. I'm not a HUGE fan of teamwork feats in the first place... but further nerfing them kind of sucks.
There's a teamwork feat that lets you aid another in knowledge checks. I use it with my Inquisitor.
Collective Recollection
You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts.
Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat attempts a trained Knowledge skill check while within 30 feet of you, you may attempt an aid another check as a free action to improve that ally's skill check. You must have at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill to be aided in order to use this feat. If you succeed at the aid another check, you automatically know any information your ally gains from the Knowledge check as if you had rolled the Knowledge check. Whether or not your aid another check is successful, you cannot attempt a Knowledge check to determine the same information as your ally after using this feat.
While I have seen some GMs infer that this feat means you can't Aid Another on knowledge checks, most of the GMs in our area don't read it that way.
We tend to read it as "everyone can make an Aid Another on knowledge checks, and the feat lets you do it better." In particular, the benefit of the feat is that you can make the aid check as a free action (perhaps even off your turn) and you know the same information your ally does without any communication necessary.
The feat does not say "this feat allows you to aid another on knowledge checks" or "you normally can't do that at all."
Our DM had always ruled that knowledges couldn't be aided. same as Perception. There were just some things you had to do on your own. Finding this feat lets me aid another and as an Inquisitor, the other player doesn't need to have it.
Honestly, that makes it a pretty useful feat. Your interpretation... pretty much makes it useless. Using it as a free action is irrelevant, since the actual knowledge skill is described as:
...Knowledge skills:
Monster Lore:
The knowledge skill rule does nothing to change the "aid another" rules though, so you would still need that feat to "aid another" as a free action.
As an example attacks of opportunity don't take an action at all, but you can't aid another on one without using an action. You would still need to spend the standard action to aid another if you knew the attack roll was going to take place.
The knowledge skill rule does nothing to change the "aid another" rules though, so you would still need that feat to "aid another" as a free action.
As an example attacks of opportunity don't take an action at all, but you can't aid another on one without using an action. You would still need to spend the standard action to aid another if you knew the attack roll was going to take place.
What kind of action is Aid Another normally?
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
If you're making the same kind of skill check... in this case knowledge, that action is 'None'. Not a standard, or swift, or even immediate... It's 'none'. No action at all. Making it a free action actually makes it worse then just a normal 'aid' check as it touches on whatever limits your DM wants to put on Free Actions.
I'd say FAQ it, but I don't really see how this interpretation has much merit. The Feat seems pretty self explainatory to me, and it seems the PFS DMs rule the same way.
Granted, it's one of the things I actually HATE about Pathfinder. That overabundance of Feats that you are required to take, just to do basic stuff... but it fits with their design model.
Our DM had always ruled that knowledges couldn't be aided. same as Perception. There were just some things you had to do on your own.
Except there is actually a rule that covers why perception can't be aided (usually), and it's this quote from Core:
"Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus."
Combined with this:
"You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort."
You can't have a cooperative effort to an individual's response to an observable stimulus. At least, not normally.
Knowledge checks are fair game, so long as the character doing the aiding is also capable of achieving the result on their own (meaning, the person doing the aid has to have the specific knowledge skill, or be capable of an untrained knowledge check). Realistically speaking, aiding another in a Knowledge check is a little thing called "putting your heads together", aka pooling your knowledge to attack a problem. We do it in the real world all the time.
What kind of action is Aid Another normally?
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
It is a standard action. If you go to the combat chapter, and look at the table for actions it is listed as a standard action.
The text also list it as a standard action.
Aid Another
In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you're in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent's next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character's skill check.
|
What kind of action is Aid Another normally?
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort.
"Same kind of skill check" ≠ "same kind of action"
I think the evidence is strong that you can't Aid Another on Knowledge checks normally. I actually have a character working up to the point where his Familiar can Aid him on his (via Bonded Mind and Exceptional Aid).
So when I GM, I likewise tell my players that they can't, without significant investment.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Who's that actor?"
"Which one?"
"That one - the one on the left. I always like him in stuff, but I can never remember his name."
"Oh my god, I know...it's umm...He was Hellboy."
"Sons of Anarchy...With a "P"? His name starts with "P"..."
"Oh! Something Pearlson...? Pearlman?"
Sooo no one's ever had this kind of conversation irl? Because it's Aid Another on Knowledge Local incarnate. This should absolutely be allowed. It may be the GM's call on some more academic subjects, but this should always be at least considered any time a player wants to attempt to Aid Another on a Knowledge check.
No, the cooperative nature is like Aid Another. You can't get the same effect in your own.
Sounds more like Taking 20.
Multiple failures until you get it right.
Try "taking 20 with Aid Another".
If you want to argue that aiding someone is not something that can be done unless you are taking 20, then fine. Usually, a knowledge check isn't usually an action according to the rules, meaning it's just "did I know this or not". So under that rule, sure, there's a good argument that you can't AA.
But if a GM is going to deny AA + take 20, then as a player I am going to insist they show me the rule that says I can't do that. (I posit that most AA attempts on a knowledge check are with one person taking 20.)
You can take 20 if "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure."
If you fail a knowledge check, can you try again? "No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place."
Taking 20 represents an IRL time-saving device, on the theory that if you had sufficient time, eventually you would roll a 20. However, if you failed the first Knowledge check, you would not get a second (or nth) roll to try again.
Good point. Can't take a 20 there. This is what happens when I post at 6am.
Something has to cover the scenario in Cuup's post, though. Cooperatively working together to understand something is a thing people do.
And, I think I know what it is: "thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place". When you are aiding another, that's not what is happening. You are giving them more information that they can use to try the skill check.
Edited to add: this is what is meant in the rules by "making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort". You are no longer just trying to recall knowledge on your own as no action. You are working with others to talk it out. The GM may rule this takes a lot longer, but it should totally be allowed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I totally agree with you. If multiple PCs have ranks in a Knowledge skill, I almost always let them Aid Another. The only exception (for me) is Knowledge skills in combat, where they might not have much of an opportunity to collectively figure stuff out.
If they don't have ranks, unless the base DC is 10, I don't typically allow it, even though the Aid Another check is a 10. It just seems weird that Swordswing McPushups should contribute meaningfully to a discussion of quantum aboleths.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How was that taking 20? There were zero failures.Sounds more like Taking 20.
Multiple failures until you get it right.
Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
The entire exchange from topic generation to "success" would have been about 10 seconds. Knowledge doesn't have a listed action, but I'm fairly certain any rational GM would agree that 10 seconds isn't taking 20 on anything.
So you'd say "You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts"?
Yes.
So you'd say "You and your allies can quickly jog each other's memories to remember essential facts"?
I think what the feat does is add "quickly" to that sentence.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't see any logical reason to deny Aid Another on Knowledge skill checks. Reasonably, it should be one of the clearest cases of allies being able to help each other. Helping someone else perform a complicated acrobatic maneuver... that's weird. Helping them remember facts is basic everyday human interaction.
I agree with those who allow a standard action to use aid another on knowledge checks. This isn't usually a great option in combat, but if there is time to talk then they can pool thier resources.
It reminds me of the season one doctor who episode with the green baby faced aliens. The Doctor listened to the companions list facts until he could narrow the species down.
|
|
does this mean anyone can Take 20 on Knowledge checks at your table?Sounds more like Taking 20.
Multiple failures until you get it right.
Only those with a class ability allowing so.
No, the implication of my analogy was that you can't do that, either.
I don't allow Aiding on Knowledge checks unless you have an ability that does so.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't allow Aiding on Knowledge checks unless you have an ability that does so.
You're in luck, then. You do have such an ability. The ability is listed in the core rulebook: "You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort."
|
does this mean anyone can Take 20 on Knowledge checks at your table?Sounds more like Taking 20.
Multiple failures until you get it right.
Only those with a class ability allowing so.
No, the implication of my analogy was that you can't do that, either.
I don't allow Aiding on Knowledge checks unless you have an ability that does so.
At your table, without an ability that says someone CAN, which skill checks can a PC Aid Another with?
Clearly not UMD (the skill itself says it can't be Aided).
and you have stated Knowledge checks can't be Aided.
How about Appraise?
Craft?
Linguistics?
Spellcraft?
this makes me wonder... can someone use Aid another on Knowledge skill checks in a LIBRARY? I mean, if my PC is checking for what animals are found in Geb, can I get another PC or NPC to aid my check? or do they have to make their skill check separate from mine?
The Mummy's Mask AP actually has research rules for exactly this situation. In general, since you're in a library researching, you can have multiple people checking along different lines of inquiry, which ultimately results in aid another. "Hey Griswold, look what I found in this book, do ya think it's relevant?"
Note, however, that those rules are specific to a full adventure day (8 hours) of research, and are limited to 2 additional aid another helpers. Specifically for the AP, each topic of research had 2 or 3 skills that would apply (which also carried some sort of bonus). IIRC, if the helpers did not have one of the requisite skills, they could do a raw INT check instead (DC 10 as well).
|
|
As the GM at the table, he can restrict Aid Another if he feels it leads to a better game. The rules do say... "...The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well...".I don't allow Aiding on Knowledge checks unless you have an ability that does so.The ability is listed in the core rulebook: "You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort."
I'd really prefer if that wasn't my primary reason, and it hasn't been up to this point, so I've been researching old threads for the last couple hours to determine where I acquired my belief. At this point it's looking more like inductive logic:
• The Collective Recollection feat exists, so clearly someone else didn't think Aiding Knowledges was possible prior, either.
• 100 people shouting at the top of their lungs shouldn't grant +200 to Knowledge.
• Every mid-level PC with a Familiar would practically get Skill Focus (Knowledge, All)
• Research rules in various sources imply that aiding on Knowledge isn't normal.
I did come from 3.5 before Pathfinder, but I can't recall if you could Aid on Knowledge back then. If you couldn't, perhaps that's stuck with me as well.
|
|
At this point it's looking more like inductive logic:
• The Collective Recollection feat exists, so clearly someone else didn't think Aiding Knowledges was possible prior, either.
Not at all clear to me... nothing in Collective Recollection suggests that you can't perform a NORMAL aid another action without the feat. The feat is just giving you a special 'collective knowledge' option... not only do you aid on the roll, you get the BENEFITS of having actually MADE the roll yourself.
• 100 people shouting at the top of their lungs shouldn't grant +200 to Knowledge.
While I'd allow more people to aid on knowledge checks than most skills/actions, 100 is clearly excessive. Hence GM discretion on how many can contribute.
• Research rules in various sources imply that aiding on Knowledge isn't normal.
All of those I can think of allow it. How does that imply it is 'not normal'?
I did come from 3.5 before Pathfinder, but I can't recall if you could Aid on Knowledge back then. If you couldn't, perhaps that's stuck with me as well.
Me too (after 3, 2, 1, and earlier), and I don't recall any such rule there either.
Aiding knowledge as a free action isn't normally possible. Collective Recollection makes it so. Aiding knowledge as a standard action is, unless the gm makes a special call.
• 100 people shouting at the top of their lungs shouldn't grant +200 to Knowledge.
Actually, I think that's called "crowdsourcing," and there's an entire very successful industry built on the idea that it does. For that matter, that's the idea behind the "Ask the Audience" lifeline in the old "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" gameshow.
But in order for that to work, you need some sort of method to organize all of those responses. If you ask a mob what something is and 80+% of them don't all yell the same thing in unison, they won't be very helpful. On the other hand, if you can ask for a show of hands for a multiple choice poll, the responses are very likely to be helpful.
|
|
What skills are ones that you can't aid another with?
• Use Magic Device, as you mentioned.
• Survival to track, if you don't have 1 rank, and the DC is higher than 10.
• Disable Device to disarm magic traps, if you don't have Trapfinding.
• Technological checks, if you don't have the Technologist feat.
** spoiler omitted **But in order for that to work, you need some sort of method to organize all of those responses. If you ask a mob what something is and 80+% of them don't all yell the same thing in unison, they won't be very helpful. On the other hand, if you can ask for a show of hands for a multiple choice poll, the responses are very likely to be helpful.
I haven't seen "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" in several years, but the method I last saw used involved the audience pushing buttons on devices at their seats that were quickly tabulated into percentages by a computer networked with all of those devices. Asking for applause or a show of hands would be lower tech methods to accomplish the same result, specially if only an overwhelming majority response is of any use to you.
|
|
What skills are ones that you can't aid another with?• Use Magic Device, as you mentioned.
• Survival to track, if you don't have 1 rank, and the DC is higher than 10.
• Disable Device to disarm magic traps, if you don't have Trapfinding.
• Technological checks, if you don't have the Technologist feat.
but wouldn't all these be barred by the last paragraph in the Aid Another rules?
Indeed. That's why I listed them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
• Research rules in various sources imply that aiding on Knowledge isn't normal.All of those I can think of allow it. How does that imply it is 'not normal'?
Of course all those allow it: they are special rules that grant it. I think his point was that if there exists a special rule (and circumstance) to grant aiding another on a knowledge check, then doing so outside of said rule/circumstance must otherwise be abnormal.
I tend to allow these types of checks on a case by case basis. If circumstances indicate that having a partner in crime present is beneficial, I'll grant it. I think it is particularly useful in cases of synergistic skills, e.g., one PC has knowledge (history) and another knowledge (engineering) and they're trying to uncover information regarding some tomb that has some particularly unique architecture (there are probably better examples that I cannot fathom at the moment).
|
|
This rule would bar someone from using Aid Another on a Knowledge check at my table - if the DC for the Knowledge check was >10 and the person couldn't make the check (no ranks and no bardic knowledge and not in a library or such like...)
Yep, that's the way I do it. If you could theoretically succeed on the check yourself (even if only with a +infinite modifier) then you can aid another. You cannot aid another only if there is some rule preventing you from even attempting the check OR if there is no way for you to reasonably provide aid (i.e. GM ruling).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BTW: Wise Teacher trait states that it is possible to aid another on Knowledge checks.
|
|
BTW: Wise Teacher trait states that it is possible to aid another on Knowledge checks.
Clearly this trait is only useful if you have the Collective Recollection feat.
;-)