...Just flipped through the Alien Archive and I'm filled with the overwhelming fear that everyone is going to want to play a Shobhad blitz soldier.
I feel like they are WAY more powerful then the other playable races in the book.
Agree?
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Not really, no.
The +4 Strength doesn't mean much when you have ability score caps and you still only get to distribute 10 points on a 1 for 1 basis. It actually kind of limits you, forcing you more towards melee builds when you might want to try something else with it.
Four arms is not overpowered since it doesn't give you additional attacks or anything.
Large size without any bonuses to show for it can actually be a hindrance. There are likely going to be a lot of ships and urban areas that simply weren't made for someone of your size.
Not even reach is as big a deal nowadays as it once was, since you can only ever get one attack of opportunity.
They are powerful, but due to their available roles being more limited, and all of the reasons mentioned above, I don't think they are strictly better than any of the core races.
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...Just flipped through the Alien Archive and I'm filled with the overwhelming fear that everyone is going to want to play a Shobhad blitz soldier.
I feel like they are WAY more powerful then the other playable races in the book.
Agree?
Could you provide some context? Like the stats or abilities?
Most don't have the Alien Archive yet.
Not really, no.
The +4 Strength doesn't mean much when you have ability score caps and you still only get to distribute 10 points on a 1 for 1 basis. It actually kind of limits you, forcing you more towards melee builds when you might want to try something else with it.
Four arms is not overpowered since it doesn't give you additional attacks or anything.
Large size without any bonuses to show for it can actually be a hindrance. There are likely going to be a lot of ships and urban areas that simply weren't made for someone of your size.
Not even reach is as big a deal nowadays as it once was, since you can only ever get one attack of opportunity.
They are powerful, but due to their available roles being more limited, and all of the reasons mentioned above, I don't think they are strictly better than any of the core races.
It's the melee builds that I am worried about. The kind of player that will pick the Shobhad will not be interested in doing anything other than a blitz soldier.
I know four arms doesn't give you extra attacks, but having two, two handed weapons always at the ready is a big deal. easily switching between ranged and melee.
yeah, one aoo/round, but that aoo is going to be happening a lot.
I just feel like all that, plus 6 HP and 40 speed is a lot to give one beastly creature.
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Shobhad have +4 Str, -2 Int. Large Size. 40 foot movement. And a few ancillaries like most races (in their case, Darkvision, Cold Resistance and what's basically Orc Ferocity).
As Ravingdork notes, however, I don't think they're broken in the context of Starfinder, or even close. Though I will note that anyone who wants to use Heavy Weapons would need Str 14 (their minimum) eventually anyway, so I think they're less trapped into melee builds than they look at first glance, at least in regards to something like a Soldier.
Still, as compared to something like a Vesk, I don't think their advantages are hugely better.
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Yeah, I forgot about the speed. That is one of their better advantages, if you ask me. Still, getting lots of extra speed is seriously cheap in this game.
I do agree that, with all of these things together, that it makes for a pretty nice package. Just not an overwhelmingly good one.
Large size without any bonuses to show for it can actually be a hindrance. There are likely going to be a lot of ships and urban areas that simply weren't made for someone of your size.
As a GM I hate having to go, "Oh you can't fit in there" or "Oh your squeezed now"
It's no fun for player or GM.
(and is Squeezed even a thing in Starfinder?)
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Not really, no.
The +4 Strength doesn't mean much when you have ability score caps and you still only get to distribute 10 points on a 1 for 1 basis. It actually kind of limits you, forcing you more towards melee builds when you might want to try something else with it.
Four arms is not overpowered since it doesn't give you additional attacks or anything.
Large size without any bonuses to show for it can actually be a hindrance. There are likely going to be a lot of ships and urban areas that simply weren't made for someone of your size.
Not even reach is as big a deal nowadays as it once was, since you can only ever get one attack of opportunity.
They are powerful, but due to their available roles being more limited, and all of the reasons mentioned above, I don't think they are strictly better than any of the core races.
It's the melee builds that I am worried about. The kind of player that will pick the Shobhad will not be interested in doing anything other than a blitz soldier.
I know four arms doesn't give you extra attacks, but having two, two handed weapons always at the ready is a big deal. easily switching between ranged and melee.
yeah, one aoo/round, but that aoo is going to be happening a lot.
I just feel like all that, plus 6 HP and 40 speed is a lot to give one beastly creature.
You still can't get more than 18 str at creation, so the bonus str isn't better than any other race that gives str.
Four arms isn't much of an advantage. Sure you CAN hold a bunch of weapons, but can you afford all those weapons? Probably not. Keeping more than your primary weapon up-to-date (which means getting a new one about every 3 levels) is an unnecessary expense when there's so many other important things to spend wealth on.
Extra move speed is good, but the bliz soldier and solarian get an improved charge as a standard action early on. A melee character with only 30' move is still going to be able to reach their target when they can move 3x their speed and still attack.
The reach is, IMO, the biggest advantage. Reach means an enemy you close with cannot take a guarded step away and be out of your threatened area. Suddenly Step Up and Strike isn't a mandatory melee feat. This is actually a bigger deal for the Solarian, since soldiers get so many feats, mandatory feats are less of a burden.
Is the race good for melee builds? Obviously.
Is it overpowered? No.
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Large size without any bonuses to show for it can actually be a hindrance. There are likely going to be a lot of ships and urban areas that simply weren't made for someone of your size.
As a GM I hate having to go, "Oh you can't fit in there" or "Oh your squeezed now"
It's no fun for player or GM.
(and is Squeezed even a thing in Starfinder?)
Even if squeezing isn't a thing in Starfinder, and even if you assume most public places and ships are designed to accomodate many different sizes, the extra size and weight can still come into play fairly often; anything from weight triggered pressure plates, to rickety rope bridges and the like.
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Okay maybe saying it's OP isn't the right thing to say.
How about I say this:
I don't like the design of the Shobhad because it will only be used by people who want to do insane melee builds and nothing else. I like my players to be more creative than that,
there!
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Okay maybe saying it's OP isn't the right thing to say.
How about I say this:
I don't like the design of the Shobhad because it will only be used by people who want to do insane melee builds and nothing else. I like my players to be more creative than that,
there!
What's insane about it? It gives reach (easily gained by reach weapons) and move speed (easily gained from feats, upgrades, augments, ect). It doesn't give more overall benefits than races normally give.
Why can't your players choose a race that does melee well when they want to make a melee character? Do you disapprove of any race that applies to only one role? Seems arbitrarily restrictive.
I am just thinking that I would love to build one of these guys as a thrown weapon specialist. Not melee. Being large might allow you to ignore full cover some of the time, depending on the cover.
Is there a high ground advantage in starfinder? Does being large and throwing things give you that high ground advantage? :P
Here's another 4th ed-ism from me: Do reach weapons count as threatening reach in Starfinder? Are there any funky disadvantages to using reach weapons? What about natural reach?
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Any race with a +4 bonus is gonna be pigeonholed into one of a few different effective builds, and that's okay. Not every race is good at everything.
I don't like the design of the Shobhad because it will only be used by people who want to do insane melee builds and nothing else. I like my players to be more creative than that.
If someone wants to do a pure melee build, they're gonna do a pure melee build, and there's not that much you can do about it. Shobhads make for good melee characters, but pure blitz soldier isn't the only thing you can do. A Shobhad character makes a good Starfinder Forerunner, Solarian, Heavy/Melee/Longarm Envoy or Mystic are a fun options.
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Here's another 4th ed-ism from me: Do reach weapons count as threatening reach in Starfinder? Are there any funky disadvantages to using reach weapons? What about natural reach?
Reach weapons do threaten any space you can reach (for small or medium creatures, that's 10 ft., including corners).
Unlike Pathfinder, which had a "reach dead zone", reach weapons in Starfinder have no disadvantages.
Natural reach works the same as reach weapons (a creature with reach 10 ft. can make reach attacks with standard weapons), and stacks with reach weapons (a creature with reach 10 and a reach weapon threatens everything within 15 ft.).
Thanks Jimbles.
So here's how I'm seeing the Shobhad vs Vesk
Ability Score modifiers: The Shobhad is better if you planned to have at least Strength 14. Not having a con bonus means you can choose to have con 10 (dunno how advisable that is), whereas the Vesk will always have at least con 12.
HP: Same. Draw
Vision: Darkvision is better so Shobhad wins.
Speed: Shobhad wins with +10 ft speed.
Four Armed vs Natural Weapon: Natural weapon means the vesk can take attacks of opportunity while wielding a ranged weapon. Four arms means the Shobhad can as well. At level 10 the vesk deals 16.5 damage (+Str), the Shobhad deals 16.5 with a level 10 weapon (plus bleed on a critical). Draw/Edging towards Shobhad
Ferocity+Cold Resistant vs Armored Savant: Cold resistance is Meh most of the time given how easy it is to swap weapons. I'll take +1 AC vs ferocity as a 1/day ability.
Reach vs Easier cover: Being large means cover should be harder to get. Small disadvantage for reach. I think the Shobhad wins.
I think the two races are close. But I think the Shobhad edges a bit too far ahead. For this reason it seems a bit too good. Remove cold resistance and/or 40 ft speed and it'd probably be more in line.
How does a Shobhad do in most space stations and humanoid designed buildings?
@Xenocrat: That's a DM decision. If you want to constantly sideline the Shobhad player and/or give them a permanent -2 to everything, you could. But if my DM was going to do that I'd rather they just ban the race. Because after 3 levels of permanent -2 or constantly not being able to participate, I'm going to just retire the character and roll up a new one.
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@Xenocrat: That's a DM decision. If you want to constantly sideline the Shobhad player and/or give them a permanent -2 to everything, you could. But if my DM was going to do that I'd rather they just ban the race. Because after 3 levels of permanent -2 or constantly not being able to participate, I'm going to just retire the character and roll up a new one.
I don't know about banning it for that reason as there are some players who would relish the challenge of being a large creature in a small/medium creatures' world. BUT, anyone wanting to run a Large creature (or any creature that has significant potential problems) should check with their GM to find out how its going to play out in general (keeping in mind that there's always going to be specific situations that sideline you), then decide if they really want to run the character.
Even if a GM decided that public spaces, including most businesses open to the public are built to accommodate large creatures, there's always going to be potential issues for a large creature... attacking a tribe of space goblins in their home? Guess what, they probably live in a warren of tunnels and crawl spaces sized for small creatures... why would they make it easy for larger creatures to invade their home?
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The +4 Strength doesn't mean much when you have ability score caps and you still only get to distribute 10 points on a 1 for 1 basis. It actually kind of limits you, forcing you more towards melee builds when you might want to try something else with it.
Any race with a +4 bonus is gonna be pigeonholed into one of a few different effective builds, and that's okay. Not every race is good at everything.
I don't like the design of the Shobhad because it will only be used by people who want to do insane melee builds and nothing else. I like my players to be more creative than that
Starfinder also offers a way to use races in non-stereotypical ways by using the "quick picks" method of ability score generation. Since that approach has you ignore racial attribute bonuses and penalties, it provides players with a nice way to work out viable race-class combinations that run counter to type (e.g., a weak but brilliant Shobhad Technomancer who likes to stay away from the front lines).
This is one of the things I like best about Starfinder, actually. Whereas the number of viable race-class combinations in Pathfinder is relatively small -- you really want a race that has a bonus in your key stat -- Starfinder's ability score options make every race-class combination a viable option.
Do the race's ability score modifiers fit in with your class or character concept? Great, use the point-buy system! Do the race's ability score modifiers fail to fit your class or character concept? No problem! Use the quick picks system!
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Whereas the number of viable race-class combinations in Pathfinder is relatively small -- you really want a race that has a bonus in your key stat --
You don't. You really want a race that has a penalty in your dump stat, and that doesn't put a bonus anywhere you wouldn't have raised anyway. If you're only raising two attributes that's going to mean you do want a bonus in your key stat, but the penalty in your dump stat is more important if you can swing it.
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I feel that given the setting has a wide variety of aliens of different sizes, it'd make sense that most space stations and other cosmopolitan areas would have accomidations for most types of aliens. So it shouldn't come up too often honestly
Imagine the Citadel from Mass Effect and how big everything was there.
Whereas the number of viable race-class combinations in Pathfinder is relatively small -- you really want a race that has a bonus in your key stat --You don't. You really want a race that has a penalty in your dump stat, and that doesn't put a bonus anywhere you wouldn't have raised anyway. If you're only raising two attributes that's going to mean you do want a bonus in your key stat, but the penalty in your dump stat is more important if you can swing it.
Yeah, I don't think we're disagreeing.
(I completely agree with what you're saying in the context of Starfinder.)
Okay maybe saying it's OP isn't the right thing to say.
How about I say this:
I don't like the design of the Shobhad because it will only be used by people who want to do insane melee builds and nothing else. I like my players to be more creative than that,
there!
What's insane about it? It gives reach (easily gained by reach weapons) and move speed (easily gained from feats, upgrades, augments, ect). It doesn't give more overall benefits than races normally give.
Why can't your players choose a race that does melee well when they want to make a melee character? Do you disapprove of any race that applies to only one role? Seems arbitrarily restrictive.
I understand you can get reach and speed other ways, the problem is the Shobhad starts with these abilities.
They can also grab a reach weapon and add speed through feats and whatnot.
A Shobhad with 10ft more speed and 5ft more reach because of a reach weapon gives me the GM chills.
Do you disapprove of any race that applies to only one role?
Ummmmmmm, yeah, I think it's a boring design.
One thing to note with aliens you could easily find yourself on a space station made for very large or very alien body lay out people that would disadvantage small/medium races just as easily as others disadvantage large races.
Given some of the races in the pact worlds are pretty big I think most stations would at least have a fair amount of areas designed where they could visit.
Still your characters size will have impact on your play and players should understand that going into it. I know some really short people in real life and they have to come up with workarounds to a lot of basic things day to day because they simply are not at the expected height and so everything is a bit less convenient.
Given the Shobhad isn't a standard player race, I don't see why it has to be a good fit for every single campaign. The corebook choices are the ones intended to represent "typical" play involving common species. Just because a race is given PC rules doesn't mean it has to be equally broadly useful.
Hmm. Maybe the best idea is to outlaw any large species from my campaign.
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Couldn't you just tell your players that you don't like the idea of them playing melee specialists if they use races that make ok melee specialists? Let them know that you expect them to play against type, and that they need to make sure they aren't trying to gain benefits for their choices.
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Couldn't you just tell your players that you don't like the idea of them playing melee specialists if they use races that make ok melee specialists? Let them know that you expect them to play against type, and that they need to make sure they aren't trying to gain benefits for their choices.
This advice leads down a very bad path IMO. It's advocating that the DM ban against players, not against mechanics.
If a DM thinks a race is OP or doesn't belong in their world for any reason, they can ban it. But to say "This race is only banned if you're going to use it in a build that would take optimal advantage of its stats" is saying "You must build characters the way I want you to build, and I will ban you from choosing certain options to enforce it."
No matter how you look at it, that's simply not fair, and any player that's done to would be completely justified in feeling discriminated against.
Couldn't you just tell your players that you don't like the idea of them playing melee specialists if they use races that make ok melee specialists? Let them know that you expect them to play against type, and that they need to make sure they aren't trying to gain benefits for their choices.This advice leads down a very bad path IMO. It's advocating that the DM ban against players, not against mechanics.
If a DM thinks a race is OP or doesn't belong in their world for any reason, they can ban it. But to say "This race is only banned if you're going to use it in a build that would take optimal advantage of its stats" is saying "You must build characters the way I want you to build, and I will ban you from choosing certain options to enforce it."
No matter how you look at it, that's simply not fair, and any player that's done to would be completely justified in feeling discriminated against.
As I'm pretty sure that's in response to the guy that flat said he's against races that are good at one thing... I think that sensation that what's being said is wrong and not fun is exactly the goal he was going for.
I don't know about banning it for that reason as there are some players who would relish the challenge of being a large creature in a small/medium creatures' world.
Sure. If those challenges include clever thinking or selecting the right combination of things to overcome the problem, then some (including me) would find that fun. Not getting to participate or almost always having a flat penalty requires no clever thinking to overcome. It just means my actions fail more often than they otherwise would, or I have to spend portions of the game surfing the web because the DM decided I wasn't going to get to participate in that portion of the session. YMMV as to whether or not being told "You can't go into that place, you have to sit outside while everyone else gets to have the fun" is entertaining to that player or not.
Couldn't you just tell your players that you don't like the idea of them playing melee specialists if they use races that make ok melee specialists?
No-one's complaining about Vesk Soldiers. Or are you trying to say that Vesk don't make ok melee specialists?
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Well you pretty much summed it up why it's stupid to play a large creature in starfinder. Most of the time you would be squeezing.
Not necessarily true at all. But if that's the experience or situation you, as a GM, are going to bring to the table, you might as well save your PCs the trouble and tell them up front "large PCs get a -2 to everything combat related, except in very rare circumstances I will tell you when they occur, if they ever occur" so they know that when they select the race. Or just ban the race cause you don't like large PCs and will engineer situations where players of large PCs are punished.
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Maybe most was an incorrect word. There doesn't have to be any intent to "punish" a large creature to hand out penalties when a 12' tall creature tries to move around in a 8' high ceiling area (like one of the ships in AP1).
Sure there are areas where you could be without penalties (I would assume the cargo area of Absalom station would have high ceilings; the drift rock had 15' high ceilings). And of course when you are outside no penalties.
So this post indicates you believe Absalom Station would be inappropriate for large creatures for most parts. Having looked through the writeup on Absalom Station in Incident at Absalom Station, there is no height as far as I can tell for most of the station (the only one mentioned has 20 ft listed, and it is remarkable because it's 20 ft but is remarkable for other reasons). Unless I've missed something, you have manufactured the size penalty to large creatures for Absalom Station. It is not intrinsic to the location nor does the location require it.
There are 6 fights on Absalom station. There are 6 fights on the starship. There are 6 fights after the starship. So that's 1/3 of the fights with a "size penalty". Here's a question though: if I'm kneeling or prone, do I still incur a size penalty? Because that reduces the 6 fights even further.
Also, unlike what some GMs here have indicated, there are 0 situations in the entire adventure where a large character would have to wait outside. If a GM was to run it and cause large characters to get sidelined, that would be the GM causing that situation to occur, not because it has to as a natural matter of course.
As I'm pretty sure that's in response to the guy that flat said he's against races that are good at one thing... I think that sensation that what's being said is wrong and not fun is exactly the goal he was going for.
Hmmm, you could be right. I am suffering through a head cold today, and it's entirely possible my ability to detect sarcasm in text form is diminished.
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Finally: 8 ft is large as per the core rulebook, page 256.
If a 6 ft creature could fit in a room that is 6 ft in height, than an 8 ft creature should be able to fit in a room that is 8 ft in height. If humans can range in 4 ft to 8 ft in height, than a shobneh should be able to be 8 ft, which is still large (just as 4 ft is still medium).
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Given the Shobhad isn't a standard player race, I don't see why it has to be a good fit for every single campaign. The corebook choices are the ones intended to represent "typical" play involving common species. Just because a race is given PC rules doesn't mean it has to be equally broadly useful.Hmm. Maybe the best idea is to outlaw any large species from my campaign.
me ..im going to allow any of the races and then see if it causes issues, my guess is that it will not but we shall see,
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I think places like absallon station are going to have bigger interior spaces than people may expect. There are quite a few of the pact world races that are either large or borderline of it. It is still something to work in there from time to time but I think most major star ports seem likely to be sized big enough that most player races should not have to much problems.
Heck one of the major species of the pact worlds the brethdan(no clue how to spell that) the big gas giant dwellers are a major force and even their juvenile forms are large and the adults go from big to holy cow its gigantic depending how many of them merge together. Absallon station is listed as having an at least one wing where they do a lot of trading with.
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Heck one of the major species of the pact worlds the brethdan(no clue how to spell that) the big gas giant dwellers are a major force and even their juvenile forms are large and the adults go from big to holy cow its gigantic depending how many of them merge together.
If you are referring to the barathu, then you are mistaken about their "juvenile size." An early stage barathu is Medium, not Large.
I'm not trying to be a party pooper GM. I have always believed that rule #1 is make sure everyone is having fun.
I just feel like ruling out large characters, especially the shobhad, will help my player make more balanced and less disruptive characters.
When the most power-gamey of my players shows up with Stabby McStabface the shobhad soldier, with a reach weapon in two hands and a rifle in the others, I will wince in pain.
"I threaten all the squares!"
"Not that guy over there"
"Oh, I shoot him"
I would be more inclined to let people use the shobhad if there was more to them than, 'good at stab' and the only disadvantage will be me, as a GM enforcing the squeeze rules or targeting the shobhad with more attacks, both will make the player feel singled out.
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I tried making a level one Shobhad operative. Ended up switching to soldier...
That had a lot more to do with wanting to wield big guns then any lack of effectiveness though. Shobhad can be effective in most any class despite their skewed stat array. The current point buy system makes that pretty easy to deal with.
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When the most power-gamey of my players shows up with Stabby McStabface the shobhad soldier, with a reach weapon in two hands and a rifle in the others, I will wince in pain.If my most power-gamey player shows up with a character that gimmicky and non disruptive I'd probably give myself a high five tbh.
Think about it. Your grand fear is a... melee character who's going to be able to AoO a bit more reliably than normal. That's it.
Speed, extra arms, high HD,
I think it does more than just AoO
I would be more inclined to let people use the shobhad if there was more to them than, 'good at stab'But that goes back to the question of are you going to ban other races that are obviously better at one thing than another too?
You keep coming up with arguments as to why you think the Shobhad are problematic, yet don't seem to ever have that same issue with other races that are similarly niche. It leaves me scratching my head as to why you're so obsessed with Shobhad in particular (and as to why you even made this thread given how resistant you seem to be to actually discussing the issue).
You are right. I think the contemplative is just fine. If you want to play Brainy McBrainface the contemplative tecnomancer, I think that's okay, there are sufficient drawbacks, especially since there are no full casters in Starfinder.
Oh and I like discussing this issue, if I seem bull headed, I apologize. I want to know what other people think.
and the only disadvantage will be me, as a GM enforcing the squeeze rules or targeting the shobhad with more attacks, both will make the player feel singled out.And also also as to why the idea of just playing the game doesn't seem to occur to you as a valid option. Why are your only two options banning the race or trying to make players who play it miserable? It seems like there's more to this vendetta than the paper thin balance concerns being discussed.
No, it's just balance. I think the other races in Starfinder seemed well though out and very balanced, and the shohbad just threw a wrench in that.
I have thought about allowing all the races, because I hate to be the bad guy and I want to make my players happy, but I have found that one OP character throws the game off for all of the other players.