So I'm currently playing in a group that's near the end of module 2 of Carrion Crown (no spoilers in this thread), but unfortunately my Cleric RIP'd in our last session. Due to the enormous cost of reviving the character and removing the negative levels, and given that we are only level 6 (about to be 7) and without a huge amount of spare gold, I've decided to make a new character. With the party being a Paladin, a Spellslinger Wizard, an Investigator, and an occasional Amnesiac Psychic (he has to miss sessions on fairly regular occasion), I was thinking about making a Transmutation/Evocation Battlehost Occultist (current build can be found HERE), that would take Conjuration as my 3rd implement at level 10 so that I could pick up the Cure (X) spells. Are there any issues or shortcomings with my build, or any suggestions for a better choice with this party comp? As much as it would probably be useful, I don't want to play a dedicated healer, and I'm saving my Bard for a different campaign.
Are you using a 15 point buy?
If your aiming for really good social skills and being good in melee I would say you would be better off playing the bard as you seem like your investing a lot into it. I would just take the scholar trait for int to diplomacy and bluff for this character.
Your int really doesn't need to be that high
If I where DM'ing and a martial character had 7 strength it would be one of those rare circumstance I watch what someone carries although you may be in the limit or your dm may not consider it a big deal. 13 strength may be worth for power attack it's just that good, or consider half-elf and focus on strength.
Evocation implement is not very good for normal occultists, really bad for martial. Abjuration is the good secondary.
Get the illusion implement at level 10 or necromancy implement at level 10 for fun for the skeletons
If you like a solid combat ability mixed with some skill utulity, consider Divination as your secondary (after Transmutation). Plenty of bonuses you hand out on d20 rolls. Abjuration can wait a little, and by the time you pick Conjuration, your UMD will be high enough that you can just use wands. Now, if you had Restoration and such on your list I'd say go for it, but if it's just for hit point restocking - not worth it, at least until you get Heal.
Are you using a 15 point buy?
If your aiming for really good social skills and being good in melee I would say you would be better off playing the bard as you seem like your investing a lot into it. I would just take the scholar trait for int to diplomacy and bluff for this character.
Your int really doesn't need to be that high
If I where DM'ing and a martial character had 7 strength it would be one of those rare circumstance I watch what someone carries although you may be in the limit or your dm may not consider it a big deal. 13 strength may be worth for power attack it's just that good, or consider half-elf and focus on strength.
Evocation implement is not very good for normal occultists, really bad for martial. Abjuration is the good secondary.
Get the illusion implement at level 10 or necromancy implement at level 10 for fun for the skeletons
Yeah, it's a 15-point buy. I'm looking to keep solid social skills because my last character was the party face and I'm looking to keep that going since the only other character with any social skills is the Paladin, and they're just decent. I assume you're referring to the Student of Philosophy trait. I would, but in this group we're limited to one Splatbook (basically anything that isn't a hardcover) per character, so I wouldn't be able to take it. Regarding the 7 STR, luckily I don't have to worry about carry weight with this group, since we're fine with dump stats. Power attack is good, but I benefit more from having a much higher DEX through to-hit, to-damage (I'll be putting Agile on my sword), AC, Init, etc. I'll probably end up picking up Vital Strike though, since Lead Blades is going to be an integral part of the build. I picked Elf specifically because of the FCB and the weapon familiarity for the curved elven blade.
What makes Evocation not very good? Next level (which will probably be our next session, or the one after) will give me Fireball twice per day, in addition to basically having it up to 4 extra times per day with the Energy Blast focus power (one of the reasons my INT is so high, in addition to bumping up my spells/day, DCs, and skill ranks). Having 6 Fireballs per day is pretty ridiculous, to me. Necromancy would be great if I was going with a dedicated undead-themed character, but it would be spreading my priorities a little too thin for me. I've considered Abjuration, but I want to be able to bring some of the heals from my Cleric back through Conjuration at 10, and Evocation is just too good to pass up.
If you like a solid combat ability mixed with some skill utulity, consider Divination as your secondary (after Transmutation). Plenty of bonuses you hand out on d20 rolls. Abjuration can wait a little, and by the time you pick Conjuration, your UMD will be high enough that you can just use wands. Now, if you had Restoration and such on your list I'd say go for it, but if it's just for hit point restocking - not worth it, at least until you get Heal.
I can definitely see the "just use wands" argument, but playing in another campaign (same group) where we've had to rely on wands the whole time, I'm definitely hesitant to pass up free Cure spells.
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Personally, I think a STR focussed 2-handing Battlehost Occultist is an overall better build. Have your bonded item be full plate and all you need is a 12 dex for fairly good AC. Then just enchant that armor, pick up an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection.
Add in Power Attack and Voila! Instant damage dealing, tanky front liner. You don't need a super high INT if youre not focussing on offensive spells, so feel free to drop some points in charisma and be the party face as well.
I have a PFS character with this build and he's a ton of fun to play. Started with 18 STR 12 DEX and used the transmutation bonus to pump up STR even higher. Add in enlarge person from the Transmutation spell list and we really start to have some fun.
Edit: Almost forgot. Make sure to pick up Improved Initiative with this build so you don't go last every round.
blast spells without a lot of feat/metamagic/other bonus support are pretty lackluster, you get pretty limited spells per day, but they won't help you like they help a full caster, and they never apply to your resonant powers
Hmmm I can definitely see how they would be lackluster if they were my only source of damage, but having a 6d6+4 damage blast with a 20-foot radius in my back pocket as a martial 5 times/day at level 7 in addition to the two other 7d6 Fireballs that I would have per day at that level is hard to view as lackluster, especially when the build is still competent as a martial.
Personally, I think a STR focussed 2-handing Battlehost Occultist is an overall better build. Have your bonded item be full plate and all you need is a 12 dex for fairly good AC. Then just enchant that armor, pick up an amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection.
Add in Power Attack and Voila! Instant damage dealing, tanky front liner. You don't need a super high INT if youre not focussing on offensive spells, so feel free to drop some points in charisma and be the party face as well.
I have a PFS character with this build and he's a ton of fun to play. Started with 18 STR 12 DEX and used the transmutation bonus to pump up STR even higher. Add in enlarge person from the Transmutation spell list and we really start to have some fun.
Edit: Almost forgot. Make sure to pick up Improved Initiative with this build so you don't go last every round.
What kind of stat spread would you recommend with a 15-point buy? My main concern with spreading myself out like that is that the build will just end up being decent in all regards, rather than excellent in some sizable amount (like total damage output, ranged/melee versatility, and social skills). I definitely like the idea of being able to focus more on Strength since Lead Blades + Enlarge Person would give me 3d8 damage dice on my sword and a healthy bonus to STR, but I'm concerned with having to significantly drop my other stats which would affect my ranged offensive capabilities (less INT ---> less Mental Focus, fewer spells, and lower DCs).
6d6+4 is 25, not a lot at lvl 7, and on 15 pt buy your DC will be low and frequent saves will make it 12. This might be fine, if your campaign has a lot of little guys on a regular basis. If it's like PFS where almost everything's Cr is over APL, it's not worth much.
15 pt buy is pretty harsh for hybrids. If you went the trans, abj, and eventually illusion route then you would have great buffs for physical damage and stellar defenses
I definitely like Abjuration for the survivability (particularly since my Cleric just died), but as I'm unsure what my starting gold value will be (not using the character advancement table) I don't know how beefy I'll already be. More AC is always better, but at the cost of being able to consistently deal ranged damage (25 isn't amazing, but hitting multiple mobs at the same time with that is significantly better than just having a bow, as a martial, not to mention the spells that I would gain access to from Evocation). Illusion is honestly the least enticing of the Occultist schools to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
If you really want the Evocation school, you might be better off with a vanilla Occultist.
I haven't looked much. What would make the base version better?
at 10 when you take it, you can be running around with 30% miss chance until your first swing, and refresh it at no point cost.
that and spells like mirror image
That's a heavy investment just for a really weak miss chance oncer or twice per combat and some meh spells.
That's a heavy investment just for a really weak miss chance oncer or twice per combat and some meh spells.at 10 when you take it, you can be running around with 30% miss chance until your first swing, and refresh it at no point cost.
that and spells like mirror image
I think you underestimate how substantial a 30% miss chance is on top of everything else. That attack or touch spell that bypasses your other defenses now has another 30% chance of being negated.
The problem of evocation falls back on the idea that your feeding it resources that would have helped make you a better melee character. You want to do both but the resources you are using only help one or the other. As a medium bab class you need those focus points to stay competitive.
More importantly abjuration has better spells for melee characters. Evocation does not assist.
You want fun tricky spells look at node of blasting.
If you do want evocation wait till 10 when you can get access to etheric shards which is an amazing spell.
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Level 6, about to be 7th? Battlehost occultist with the Transmutation and Conjuration implement schools: Size Alteration, Conjure Implement (i.e., weapons), and Quickness; pick up Side Step and Mind Over Gravity at 7th level (using the Extra Focus Power feat). Take the Divination implement school at 10th.
Panoply bond with full plate, o-yoroi, or tatami-do, depending on Dex.
Create water, mending; cure light wounds, lead blades; glitterdust, plus one Transmutation spell (chill metal, ghostbane dirge, heat metal, or versatile weapon are probably among the best choices). Phantom steed and magic vestment at 7th (Legacy Weapon is better than greater magic weapon, since it stacks and/or can be used to add weapon abilities).
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I'm a big fan of the divination implement, especially on a combat occultist. Put enough points in it, and you get all day darkvision and see invisibility, and you can use those points to give yourself an attack bonus once per turn as a swift action.
Personally, I decided not to go Battlehost on my melee occultist. Really, the main reason to go with that archetype is the bonus feats. If you're just doing a simple combat style like two handed weapon and power attack, you don't need the archetype. You're probably better off not giving up the implements, for more powers and spells.
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What kind of stat spread would you recommend with a 15-point buy?
Assuming Human with racial bonus and level 4 stat bonus to STR.
STR:15+2+1=18
DEX:12
CON:13
INT:14
WIS:7
CHA:12
You won't be the most perceptive bloke, but overall I think its a pretty solid spread for what you're looking for. And assuming you take the Transmutation school, that's an additional +2 to STR for a total of 20. Use a 2-handed weapon and thats some serious damage output.
Feat wise, make sure to pick up Power Attack so you can really pump out the damage. Plus you can also pick up Furious Focus to get rid of the attack penalty.
My BH occulist has very similar stats (higher INT due to 20 pt buy) and he contributes fine to fights.
Oh, and for your Transmutation power I highly recommend Sudden Speed so you can move 50 ft in full plate (or take a 100ft charge!) as a swift action.
What kind of stat spread would you recommend with a 15-point buy?Assuming Human with racial bonus and level 4 stat bonus to STR.
STR:15+2+1=18
DEX:12
CON:13
INT:14
WIS:7
CHA:12You won't be the most perceptive bloke, but overall I think its a pretty solid spread for what you're looking for. And assuming you take the Transmutation school, that's an additional +2 to STR for a total of 20. Use a 2-handed weapon and thats some serious damage output.
Feat wise, make sure to pick up Power Attack so you can really pump out the damage. Plus you can also pick up Furious Focus to get rid of the attack penalty.
My BH occulist has very similar stats (higher INT due to 20 pt buy) and he contributes fine to fights.
Oh, and for your Transmutation power I highly recommend Sudden Speed so you can move 50 ft in full plate (or take a 100ft charge!) as a swift action.
So I'm trying that point buy out since it looks pretty decent. The damage is great and I like that I once again have Enlarge Person on my side (mostly like the damage dice increase in conjunction with the increase from Lead Blades), but the big drawback I'm seeing is the hit to my Mental Focus from the reduced INT and no longer getting the FCB from Elf. It's probably worth it in the end, but man is that change drastic.
Scratch that, I just read the FAQ which states that half-elves and half-orcs can count as full members of either of their races when it comes to FCB. So I can still get that sweet Mental Focus bonus, the same +2 to STR, and proficiency with the Curved Elven Blade.