Looing for combat clerification - weapons with shields and flatfooted

[Zarius]

I have four questions, which my DM and I just ran into. We would both like a little help from some dedicated rules lawyers (with citations if possible).

So, first question... if a weapon has a shield built into it (Custom weapon rules), can you use the shield on it to defend the same round you attack with it? You can't if you shield-bash, we know that, but do the weapon and shield count as one device for combat, or two? I'm asking specifically about a one handed martial weapon for one character and a light simple weapon for another

Second question is a follow-up to the first one, and only needs answered if the answer to the first one is "yes you can block and attack with the same thing, as long as you don't shield bash with that shield." If you're TWF with weapons that have shields built into them, can you block the same round you attack?

Third question, if a character is considered flat footed as a result of of a feat that that causes characters hit with an attack of opportunity to suffer the flat-footed state, does that character still count as a threat for the purposes of flanking?

Fourth question, if a character is knocked prone, can they take a 5-foot step before using their move action to standup?

[Lady-J]

i would say yes but you take a penalty to hit based on the armor check penalty of the thing which it should have if its part shield -1 if its a light shield -2 if its a heavy shield and -10 if its a tower shield if its made out of mithril the penalties would be reduced i think this is the best your gona get cuz i really don't think there's an official ruling for something like that any were out there but if you hold a weapon in the hand that has a bulker on it you take the bulkers armor check penalty to hit so i feel its pretty close to the same thing

[Lady-J]

if you are considered flat footed you would get the ac boost from the shield thing if you were wielding the thing in question but wouldn't get the shield bonus if you had it sheathed in a surprise round for example

[Lady-J]

and lastly per raw no but all the gms i play with let you do a 5 foot crawl or a 5 foot roll or let you stand up as a full round action that doesn't provoke

[Diego Rossi]

Zarius wrote:

Fourth question, if a character is knocked prone, can they take a 5-foot step before using their move action to standup?

PRD wrote:

Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

Crawling 5' is a move action.

For all the other question, where are those custom weapon rules? You should check them and see if there is something.
If those are something your GM made, you should ask him.

[Bob Bob Bob]

New weapons are Weapon Master's Handbook?

Creating New Weapons wrote:

Shield (1 DP): The weapon counts as a light shield made of wood or metal and can have armor spikes (your choice). Add the gp price of the shield and any armor spikes that the weapon gains from this quality to the weapon's gp price. This quality can be added only to one-handed melee weapons.

"counts as a light shield" means that if you attack with the weapon it's the same thing as attacking with the shield. They're one object, and treated as such. It's just a way to make other things like the klar.

[CBDunkerson]

1&2: All shields (with or without other weapons attached) in the game currently give up their AC bonus if they are used to attack... unless the user has a feat or other ability which allows them to do both. Thus, I would likely follow that precedent unless there was a good reason to do otherwise.

3: The rules are clear that you cannot normally make an AoO if you do not threaten. Whether you threaten when you cannot make an AoO has been debated many times with no firm answer that I have seen. Personally, I'd rule that since you cannot make an attack you do not threaten.

4: Not without a feat or other special ability (e.g. Monkey Moves).

[Tarantula]

Quote:

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Quote:

Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Cannot make attacks of opportunity is not the same as "cannot make a melee attack" so you can't make the AoO but you still threaten. IMO

[Claxon]

Zarius wrote:

I have four questions, which my DM and I just ran into. We would both like a little help from some dedicated rules lawyers (with citations if possible).

So, first question... if a weapon has a shield built into it (Custom weapon rules), can you use the shield on it to defend the same round you attack with it? You can't if you shield-bash, we know that, but do the weapon and shield count as one device for combat, or two? I'm asking specifically about a one handed martial weapon for one character and a light simple weapon for another

Second question is a follow-up to the first one, and only needs answered if the answer to the first one is "yes you can block and attack with the same thing, as long as you don't shield bash with that shield." If you're TWF with weapons that have shields built into them, can you block the same round you attack?

Third question, if a character is considered flat footed as a result of of a feat that that causes characters hit with an attack of opportunity to suffer the flat-footed state, does that character still count as a threat for the purposes of flanking?

Fourth question, if a character is knocked prone, can they take a 5-foot step before using their move action to standup?

For your first question you already have an exact analog, the shield. Shields also happen to be light or 1-handed weapons, if you look on the weapons list. In either event, you need the Improved Shield Bash feat to retain the AC from shield when attacking with it. I would set this as the basis, you need a feat to retain the shield bonus while attacking. The next closest thing is the Klar, which use to function differently but the description text now just tells you it functions like a light shield. So IMO, no matter what you need to spend a feat to retain that shield bonus.

Edit: Based on the wording posted by Bob, the weapon you made is functionally a shield, which means you absolutely need shield bash for it to retain that shield bonus.

Third question, yes. Despite being rendered flat-footed you still threaten the square. Flanking only requires that you threaten, not specifically be able to make an AoO. Threatening mentions that it enables you to make AoO, but they aren't the same thing. Threatened is defined as "all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn."

Fourth question no. You can't 5ft step while prone to move out of a threatened square and avoid the AoO. The good news is, you can't be tripped while attempting to stand up though.

[CBDunkerson]

Claxon wrote:

Threatened is defined as "all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn."

Exactly... and if you are flat-footed then you can't make a melee attack in to any square (unless you have Combat Reflexes or some similar option).

Let's look at other conditions which prevent you from attacking; dead, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, helpless... do you threaten while suffering from those conditions? I'd say no... because you can't attack. You also can't attack when you are flat-footed.

The only difference between flat-footed and those other conditions is that flat-footed usually ends the moment your turn begins... but that doesn't change the fact that you can't attack UNTIL that point. Any more than you'd threaten while paralyzed if the effect was set to wear off at the start of your next turn.

[Tarantula]

Flat-footed doesn't prevent you from making attacks. Flat-footed prevents you from making AoOs. There is a difference.

Dead, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, helpless, you cannot take the attack action. If you are flat-footed, because of some effect other than not having acted yet, and it is your turn, you can still make attacks, which is all that is required for flanking to happen.

[CBDunkerson]

Tarantula wrote:

If you are flat-footed, because of some effect other than not having acted yet, and it is your turn, you can still make attacks, which is all that is required for flanking to happen.

Let's focus on the most common form of flat-footed for a moment... you haven't acted yet. Can you attack prior to your turn?

[Tarantula]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

If you are flat-footed, because of some effect other than not having acted yet, and it is your turn, you can still make attacks, which is all that is required for flanking to happen.

Let's focus on the most common form of flat-footed for a moment... you haven't acted yet. Can you attack prior to your turn?

If there is no surprise round, or you were aware and had a weapon readied already, you could. You can't make AOOs because you are flat-footed, but you are capable of making melee attacks.

If its a surprise round, and you were unaware, you could not. Because "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round." So you have no actions possible during the surprise round and therefore are unable to make attacks during that round.

[Claxon]

What Tarantula said.

[Zarius]

CBDunkerson, the problem with your idea of "let's focus on the most common form of flatfooted" is that, inherently, I'm asking a question about the LEAST common form of flatfooted, as far as I'm aware. I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that highly specialized monks or monk-like builds are far less common than characters that can effectively utilize stealth or ambushes.

So, your focus on "the most common form" is basically useless. If you're unaware of your enemy, either as a surprise round or as stealth, you don't threaten in regards to them, period. You CAN'T flank an enemy that you're unaware of, period. THIS I understand.

Seems like my first two questions are pretty much answered, so thanks for that much. Fourth one is pretty straight forward, too.