does anyone else think that reflex saves against AoE stuff doesn't make sense?
"I'll do some gymnastic stuff but stay in the exact same spot instead of get out of the area that is currently on fire or exploding"
I think that for AoE, a reflex save should be to get out of the affected area (if your movement speed is big enough) which is why you take half damage (or no damage with evasion) because you are able to get out of the blast radius but are still harmed in the process (again, unless you have evasion), people who fail are unable to escape and take the full damage because they couldn't get out of the area.
I suppose for a spread, like Fireball, the way it is makes sense because you can jump over the "wave" of the spread, but for a burst or splash or pillar which will hit the square that you are in, and the area above and around that, and therefore you, it just doesn't work :/
So how about when reflexing against any AoE effects (including spread), as part of the save you move to the nearest sqaure outside of the AoE if your current movement speed allows (it could be a choice if it's a spread since, as I mentioned, you can just jump over the wave) e.g.
1. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 15ft wide pillar, succeed the reflex save, can move the 15ft to get to the nearest space not affected.
2. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 30ft spread, succeed the reflex save, can jump over the "wave".
3. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 30ft burst, cannot escape because the area of effect is bigger than my movement.
4. movement speed 20ft, near the edge of a 30ft burst, fail the reflex save, unable to react in time and get caught in the blast.
Of course entangled, grappled, pinned, helpless and prone people can't escape no matter what.
Well being fair...you generally can't move when it isn't your turn y'know :) Also, when people have proposed this before, I've commented how you can use it to move people further faster across the battlefield. Can't reach the BBEG this round? Let the mage fireball you the rest of the way. More fun if you have abilities that apply when you move, like the stance feats in the CR.
See what happens when we try to apply sense to the rules?
Also, I wouldn't apply this to prone people; maybe they can roll to the nearest safe square if they've got one of the small AoE spells aimed at them (burning hands, lightning bolt)?
Saiya: Reflex is already the least important save to focus on. Making it more difficult for people is just going to cause people to not even look at it, and just deal with the damage when necessary.
That being said, I find your reasoning fairly unreasonable. There are plenty of things real live people have done in giant conflagrations to take half to no damage.
instead of pretending your rogue does a somwersault with a twist or something, which seems to be the implication of your second phrase, imagine he quickly rolls into his cloak, splashing his canteen onto it to help protect him. For instantaneous spells, this could very well protect him just fine, because remember, PCs are outright better than regular humans.
So, I hope this comes off as constructive criticism, instead of just feeling like I'm saying no because I don't like the idea, but I simply don't think this is a problem that needs fixing.
does anyone else think that reflex saves against AoE stuff doesn't make sense?
"I'll do some gymnastic stuff but stay in the exact same spot instead of get out of the area that is currently on fire or exploding"
I think that for AoE, a reflex save should be to get out of the affected area (if your movement speed is big enough) which is why you take half damage (or no damage with evasion) because you are able to get out of the blast radius but are still harmed in the process (again, unless you have evasion), people who fail are unable to escape and take the full damage because they couldn't get out of the area.I suppose for a spread, like Fireball, the way it is makes sense because you can jump over the "wave" of the spread, but for a burst or splash or pillar which will hit the square that you are in, and the area above and around that, and therefore you, it just doesn't work :/
So how about when reflexing against any AoE effects (including spread), as part of the save you move to the nearest sqaure outside of the AoE if your current movement speed allows (it could be a choice if it's a spread since, as I mentioned, you can just jump over the wave) e.g.
1. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 15ft wide pillar, succeed the reflex save, can move the 15ft to get to the nearest space not affected.
2. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 30ft spread, succeed the reflex save, can jump over the "wave".
3. movement speed 20ft, in the middle of a 30ft burst, cannot escape because the area of effect is bigger than my movement.
4. movement speed 20ft, near the edge of a 30ft burst, fail the reflex save, unable to react in time and get caught in the blast.Of course entangled, grappled, pinned, helpless and prone people can't escape no matter what.
i imagined reflex saves as shielding yourself before you got hit with the brunt of the blast. or ducking and covering, etc.
the evasion stuff is like how batman covers himself with his cape just in time, etc.
The very first 3.0 game I played in, I had a Rogue. We were (somehow) ambushed by a black dragon in a swamp, who opened with a line of acid against the party, who were (according to the DM) marching in a straight line for some reason.
I made my save and declared I took no damage due to Evasion. The DM (new to such mechanics) expressed his disdain and said "that doesn't make any sense".
As it happened, the character standing behind mine was a Fighter/Cleric in Plate armor. So I simply suggested that my 5' 10" Rogue, thinking quickly, used the 6' 3" warrior in plate as cover against the acid. The DM was mollified.
The other player, of course, wasn't. "You can't use my character as a shield?!"
Since Reflex is tied to Dexterity, it's easy to think of it as a pure physical action, but quick wits are included as well, using factors in your environment as improvised cover or other ways to mitigate damage. There are special techniques involved as well, analogous to how a paratrooper knows how to minimize their descent during a fall, or how a martial artist can learn to roll with a punch.
There's a mostly forgettable action movie, Assassins, where one of the characters is in a second story apartment, and realizes that the gas stove was left on, and the place is about to explode. Thinking quickly, he grabs a table to use as cover and puts his back to a window, so the explosion forces him through the window and he lands on the lawn outside, taking far less damage from the explosion.
It's up to the players and the GM to decide how a successful Reflex save works, whether it involves movement, quick thinking, or divine providence. Many action films have the hero saved from certain doom by pure luck as well, often prompting others to exclaim "why won't you die?!".
And yes, if necessary, the GM can rule that dodging the fireball DOES move you to some safe place. There is, after all, one instance where you can move when it's not your turn, and that's when someone or something else moves you against your will, like, say, the blast of a fireball.
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Like which part of "I dodge the fireball" doesn't make sense?
That said, if you are 100% convinced that this "realism" will improve your game, perhaps the Evasion ability instead let's you move your movement speed as an immediate action but leaves you staggered the following round with your maximum movement lowered by the movement you used to "evade" the effect.
Ex. The party rogue sneaks past the first line of enemies going for the enemy wizard, making it half way to her target. The wizard casts fireball centered on the rogue, who activates her Evasion ability as an immediate action and clears the 20-foot blast radius, closing the remaining distance towards the enemy wizard. The next round begins, and the staggered rogue, now upon her target, uses a standard action to attack him...
The only question that remains then is what would Improved Evasion do?
... The only question that remains then is what would Improved Evasion do?
Could have it turn it into a free action usable outside your turn, or remove the staggered condition from it.
i imagined reflex saves as shielding yourself before you got hit with the brunt of the blast. or ducking and covering, etc.
the evasion stuff is like how batman covers himself with his cape just in time, etc.
With the way RAW is written, this has always been the way I have understood it too. Which isn't to say that I like that interpretation, just saying I think your interpretation is accurate to the way it was meant to be ruled on.
Personally I HATED the RAW Evasion skill so here is what I did:
Evasion + 4 bonus to your REF Save and you are left prone. Move action to get up, or acrobatics check vs the DC of the spell to avoid prone.
Improved Evasion it is + 4 and roll twice taking the best result. Further you move up to 1/2 your movement as you attempt to get into a better position to avoid the effect and no prone side effect.
Free Toppling spell equivalent metamagic (except no save allowed, and better in every other way) to every AoE spell.
Truly balanced and well thought out. I've always thought to myself "Man, what this game really needs is an across the board buff to a large category of spells. They're just so WEAK otherwise."
Free Toppling spell equivalent metamagic (except no save allowed, and better in every other way) to every AoE spell.
Truly balanced and well thought out. I've always thought to myself "Man, what this game really needs is an across the board buff to a large category of spells. They're just so WEAK otherwise."
Do you have a link on this?
Found it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic