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A world with trains (okay, lightning rails, but still) should have gunslingers. I would like to think that guns are built by House Cannith. They should have flintlock pistols and rifles.
And if they are selling pistols and rifles, then people would buy them and spend hours on their marksmanship. I'd figure most of them will come out of Breland and Cyre (before the Last War). As an extension, swashbucklers can also exist in Eberron.
Thoughts?
I would like to think that the best swashbucklers come out of the academy in Rekkenmark. King Kaius III (Vampire king) would also be a swashbuckler himself. I'll provide stats for King Kaius III here as a swashbuckling king.
Back to gunslingers. I'll provide stats for King Boranel as a gunslinger in this thread as well.
This is not a sure conversion, just enough to get my thoughts down.
King Kaius III
CR 16
Male human vampire Aristocrat 2/Swashbuckler 14
Notable skills: Acrobatics +18, Diplomacy +20, Knowledge (Karnnath) +10, Knowledge (Blood of Vol) +12, Knowledge (Nobility) +14, Perform +18.
Notable Feats: Combat Expertise, Dazing Assault, Dazzling Display, Improved Disarm, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Weapon Focus (saber), Weapon Finesse
To be honest, I'd do away with the flintlocks. In a world this into magitech, why would you be lighting your powder by banging rocks together?
So actual bullets, then?
actual *cartridges*, yes
Swashbuckler? Absolutely.
I'm not so sure about firearms. Since Artificers can produce magic items cheaper than usual, there is no need for firearms on Eberron.
Swashbuckler? Absolutely.
I'm not so sure about firearms. Since Artificers can produce magic items cheaper than usual, there is no need for firearms on Eberron.
wand of fireballs can be "gunslinged." So can a wand of magic missiles.
Swashbuckler? Absolutely.
I'm not so sure about firearms. Since Artificers can produce magic items cheaper than usual, there is no need for firearms on Eberron.
They'd be useful for anyone venturing into an area like the Mournland.
I could totally see Gunslingers in Sharn, or yes as said on the borders of the Mournlands, which would totally be a boss setting for a western.
I could see firearms but there would certainly have to be a reason for their existence and proliferation. On Earth, the factors that led to their creation were A) no magic, B) training someone in archery took a lifetime, and C) firearms could be made cheap enough.
In D&D, the first two don't really exist. Anyone can pick up a bow and use it, or get the proficiency with a single feat. In addition, there is magic everywhere in Ebberron and it has been industrialized. I could see firearms as a cheaper alternative to wands of fireballs, since that costs a lot of money and aren't as cost effective to mass produce. So I could see firearms as a cheap alternative to wands, since a wand of fireball would cost 11,250 to buy. Plus wands are spell trigger, so you would have to know fireball to cast it. With wands of fireballs having that high standard to use it, I can definitely see firearms proliferating for the mundane masses. Hell, I could even see it as a sort of symbol of the peasants revolting against their magic tyrants, if that's the story you want to tell.
the apparition of the Mournland, and the need to explore without magical help might be an incentive... Niche market, sure, but those are those that make House Cannith thrive.
Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
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Why would they have any need to create gunpowder when some form of abundant naturally forming condensed energy [in whatever form you want in your game] crystals that can be used to propel bullets (or projectiles of their own creation)Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
Why would you need guns when you have eternal wands and mass-produced magic items.
Why would they have any need to create gunpowder when some form of abundant naturally forming condensed energy [in whatever form you want in your game] crystals that can be used to propel bullets (or projectiles of their own creation)Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
Glad I read that. Ultimately, it's really up to the GM whether they want that in their setting. I guess you could just say that the crystals can't be ground up. Or maybe there's a Curse of Sulfur/Saltpeter that simply makes gunpowder not work, or bad things happen.
So really it's up to who is running. I can respect Keith on his decision.
What is the cost of wands in Eberron? It's been a decade since I've had my head in Eberron.
Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
Makes me wonder how alchemists will fit, since they are scientists in a magical setting. I did see a thread on Alchemists in Eberron, though.
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Iron Kingdoms uses a binary alchemical compound that burn really fast when mixed. perhaps that would fit the flavor more. I remember that alchemy is really common in the ebberon setting.
Bombardier beetles can produce a chemical that does something like that. Perhaps real gunpowder is unproducible, but the chemicals that bombardier beetles produce can be a viable solution. Then again, gunpowder burns hotter than boiling water.
I could see firearms but there would certainly have to be a reason for their existence and proliferation. On Earth, the factors that led to their creation were A) no magic, B) training someone in archery took a lifetime, and C) firearms could be made cheap enough.
Your logic is faulty, since we have no actual experience in real working Magic, we have no data for it's effect, or lack of one on technological development.
Anyway for Eberron, I'd think revolvers would be appropriate. Firearms would have some impact but given the existence of 19th century clockworks along elemental based magitek, I don't think it'd be that severe.
I could see firearms but there would certainly have to be a reason for their existence and proliferation. On Earth, the factors that led to their creation were A) no magic, B) training someone in archery took a lifetime, and C) firearms could be made cheap enough.
Your logic is faulty, since we have no actual experience in real working Magic, we have no data for it's effect, or lack of one on technological development.
Anyway for Eberron, I'd think revolvers would be appropriate. Firearms would have some impact but given the existence of 19th century clockworks along elemental based magitek, I don't think it'd be that severe.
While true on the magic part, the other two reasons are major players in the spread of firearms. It's something we can see in history. So in theory, Eberron could certainly have room for firearms.
But it sounds like the creator, Keith Baker, has made his decision about firearms. So from there, it's up to us as GMs to see whether we're okay with it or not.
Personally, given the WWI vibe I feel from the setting, I'd love to see early Maxim machine guns and the rise of mechanized warfare. Arcane tanks sound pretty awesome.
I could see firearms but there would certainly have to be a reason for their existence and proliferation. On Earth, the factors that led to their creation were A) no magic, B) training someone in archery took a lifetime, and C) firearms could be made cheap enough.
Your logic is faulty, since we have no actual experience in real working Magic, we have no data for it's effect, or lack of one on technological development.
Anyway for Eberron, I'd think revolvers would be appropriate. Firearms would have some impact but given the existence of 19th century clockworks along elemental based magitek, I don't think it'd be that severe.
While true on the magic part, the other two reasons are major players in the spread of firearms. It's something we can see in history. So in theory, Eberron could certainly have room for firearms.
But it sounds like the creator, Keith Baker, has made his decision about firearms. So from there, it's up to us as GMs to see whether we're okay with it or not.
Personally, given the WWI vibe I feel from the setting, I'd love to see early Maxim machine guns and the rise of mechanized warfare. Arcane tanks sound pretty awesome.
At that point though, the melee martial classes as well as the non gun ranged classes pretty much become obsolete, so I can understand Baker's position.
Yeah most of the games I have run have had firearms of various degrees and fighters and rangers were not obsolete. It helps that fighters and rangers get enough feats to make firearms super deadly.
That said, the more advanced firearms you have, the less of a chance that melee weapons would be used. Which makes sense with the era and style of game that is being run (in my case, it was WWI). And the style is different from heroic fantasy and puts it more in the realm of pulp fantasy. Which is pretty much what Eberron is. Just like firearms in a swashbuckling, 1500's game would run differently than a western six shooter campaign, which would run differently in a Great War campaign.
And even with that, magic melee weapons are still pretty useful, as my player discovered when ambushing some soldiers with greatsword. As is magic armor.
They'd be useful for anyone venturing into an area like the Mournland.Swashbuckler? Absolutely.
I'm not so sure about firearms. Since Artificers can produce magic items cheaper than usual, there is no need for firearms on Eberron.
Why? Healing spells don't work there. All other magic is fine.
damn, I've not looked at it for too long, I thought all magic was impaired there.
damn, I've not looked at it for too long, I thought all magic was impaired there.
I just barely got Five Nations (hence forth, E:FN) just to look at Kaius. It's also been a long time before I looked at the Mournland.
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Makes me wonder how alchemists will fit, since they are scientists in a magical setting. I did see a thread on Alchemists in Eberron, though.Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
The Gnomes of Zilargo were the greatest alchemists of Khorvaire. There's a blog post from Keith somewhere that Gnomes were great alchemists because they had a heightened sense of smell, which they used to better determine the ingredients of alchemical substances. Also the Gnomes developed alchemy for use of poisons and more 'subtle' magic, to deal with Hobgoblins and Humans, who can overwhelm Gnomes in direct fighting. Pretty sure Elemental Binding is an alchemical process, which is why the Gnomes are the best with it.
As a side note, while Swashbucklers are a great fit for Eberron, its not likely that Rekkenmark has specialized training for it. Rekkenmark was more of an officer's academy, teaching strategy, tactics, and leadership. How to run a war or win a battle, not sweet fencing moves. Aundair is the nation with the most Swashbuckling flavor ("Aundair dares!"), so I'd have it there somewhere. Or maybe Thaliost, with students of some notable academy rebelling against Dariznu and killing Thranish soldiers in the city.
And if you want to include guns, I'd say gunpowder is ground up Eberron dragonshards treated with some alchemical process. Maybe the Gnomes developed it to try to rectify the size difference between them and their enemies, maybe Cyre had it developed during the Last War to try to swing things to their favor, or maybe Merrix d'Cannith is producing it in his forge under Sharn.
Makes me wonder how alchemists will fit, since they are scientists in a magical setting. I did see a thread on Alchemists in Eberron, though.Eberron does not have gun powder, therefore no gunslingers:
The Gnomes of Zilargo were the greatest alchemists of Khorvaire. There's a blog post from Keith somewhere that Gnomes were great alchemists because they had a heightened sense of smell, which they used to better determine the ingredients of alchemical substances. Also the Gnomes developed alchemy for use of poisons and more 'subtle' magic, to deal with Hobgoblins and Humans, who can overwhelm Gnomes in direct fighting. Pretty sure Elemental Binding is an alchemical process, which is why the Gnomes are the best with it.
As a side note, while Swashbucklers are a great fit for Eberron, its not likely that Rekkenmark has specialized training for it. Rekkenmark was more of an officer's academy, teaching strategy, tactics, and leadership. How to run a war or win a battle, not sweet fencing moves. Aundair is the nation with the most Swashbuckling flavor ("Aundair dares!"), so I'd have it there somewhere. Or maybe Thaliost, with students of some notable academy rebelling against Dariznu and killing Thranish soldiers in the city.
And if you want to include guns, I'd say gunpowder is ground up Eberron dragonshards treated with some alchemical process. Maybe the Gnomes developed it to try to rectify the size difference between them and their enemies, maybe Cyre had it developed during the Last War to try to swing things to their favor, or maybe Merrix d'Cannith is producing it in his forge under Sharn.
Good ideas! Although Keith handwaved gunpowder out of Eberron. This was to make the campaign different from Arcanum and Shadowrun. No gunpowder, officially. Doesn't stop a DM from handwaving it back in. But I understand Keith's decision on how to make it different. No gunpowder.
So I'm going to make an archetype for the gunslinger called the "wandslinger." The wandslinger pulls out wands and blasts enemies in his way. The skill additions are Use Magical Device and Knowledge (arcana).
So I'm going to make an archetype for the gunslinger called the "wandslinger." The wandslinger pulls out wands and blasts enemies in his way. The skill additions are Use Magical Device and Knowledge (arcana).
Like the Cannith Wand Adept PrC?
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So I'm going to make an archetype for the gunslinger called the "wandslinger." The wandslinger pulls out wands and blasts enemies in his way. The skill additions are Use Magical Device and Knowledge (arcana).Like the Cannith Wand Adept PrC?
Yeah. Amazing how a simple archetype can replace a PrC.
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Contrary to popular belief, invention is a slow process. When people propose these ideas, they thought about the end product first and then work backward. Why would anyone even think of this idea on Eberron?
Compared to a longbow, a gun requires an exotic proficiency feat, a big deal on a 2nd-level world (you need BAB +1 just to be proficient in it, so you aren't having massed 1st-level peasants armed with flintlocks) and even if it deals a little more damage than a longbow, is slower and less accurate. If they're any good at all they need a rapid reloading feat too, which would put stress on even a 1st-level human warrior (who would only have two feats) and makes it even harder for a random peasant to be proficient in it.
The main advantage of the primitive gun over the longbow, the ease of training in its use (so you can fire massed bullets where aim isn't as important as drilling in reloading speed), simply doesn't fit D&D or Pathfinder. This is a game where PCs can gain a level per year (or month, or few days) and most NPCs never gain levels at all.
That's a good enough reason to explain why guns shouldn't be widespread throughout the Five Nations, but just because its not developed to a fine enough degree to justify outfitting armies, doesn't mean it has no use at all.
Like I'd suggested above, guns would be very useful to Gnomes, bypassing the heavy armor of Hobgoblins and Humans. Not to outfit armies with, but the Trust would probably find use for guns among their agents.
And if Cyre was creating them during the Last War, it could very well explain why the guns are still unwieldy and limited. The research was never finished, the people developing the weapons and their notes were lost in the Mourning.
I'm aware Keith doesn't care for guns in Eberron, but he also always says that you should make Eberron yours. Plenty of places to fit guns if you want them, especially given the Last War and the new technologies developed during.
If the Zils would have need to fight someone, they'd have elemental binding, magewrights with wands and their mastery of deception as well as illusion magic. It's what served them well against the Dhakaani.
Gnomes are subtle. Guns are crude and loud. The Trust especially would not use them, because its agents rely on being unobstrusive.
Goblinoids in Eberron are not known for magic, so it could be old Goblin Tech. I imagine the Mournlands as a version of the Mana Wastes in my take on Eberron. I basically transfer Alkenstar with the serial numbers filed off.
They'd be useful for anyone venturing into an area like the Mournland.Swashbuckler? Absolutely.
I'm not so sure about firearms. Since Artificers can produce magic items cheaper than usual, there is no need for firearms on Eberron.
Entombed with the Pharaoh did have that wand rifle that would be a great basis for this.
I like to think the Zil gnomes discovered gunpowder decades (maybe centuries) ago and have just been keeping it secret ever since. Even now, the Trust could have squads training their aim with magically silenced and elementally enhanced sniper rifles in some secret vault deep under the Seawall Mountains, just in case the time ever comes that the gnomes will have to use force instead of subtlety.