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I was looking at the Constable archetype, and wanted to try to build a character off this class.
Then my friend was talking about trying to make a Strangler without being a total masochist. And it gave me an idea...
With the constable's "apprehend" ability, i can imagine this character possibly charging and tackling foes, and beating them to submission.
I know i could just build a Tetori monk, but then i loose out on all the other stuff Cavalier could do.
Besides, i was only considering a 2 maybe 4 level progression of Strangler, amongst the Cavalier levels, as i don't exclusively plan on going the whole grapple route. Also, as a Grippli [hey, i have the boon, and a growing GM blob.], so there's the whole size difference.
Though, this character doesn't need to be a grippli- just be entertaining to see a frog trying to tackle someone.
A two level dip into Strangler would give you most bang for your buck, so I would settle for that. As a Grippli you'll want to be Dex based so the ability to ignore all dex penalties while in a grapple is golden.
Oh, and grappling is not affected by size differences, so Grippli is fine.
As you'll take Weapon Finesse at the first level, you should start out with the two levels in Strangler and then pick up Improved Grapple with your first level in Constable when you get IUS as a bonus feat (or earlier, if you don't mind retraining).
You'll also get Martial Flexibility and a bonus combat feat, so you can focus on just upping your overall damage the first two levels. (TWF/Piranha Strike maybe?)
Your weapon of choice should be the cestus, since you won't have any scaling unarmed damage. You can either dual-wield cestus with TWF, or you'll want to dip into Unarmed Fighter/MoMs Monk for the Grappling Style feat. Which allows you to ignore the -4 penalty for grappling with one hand, and therefore use a shield.
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I don't want to focus too heavily on the grappling aspect, like i said- as a Constable/Cavalier, i can provide some bonuses outside of me focusing on one enemy with my Challenge.
Brawler 1- Weapon Finesse
B2: Martial Flexibility, Piranha Strike
Cavalier 1- IUS. Improved Grapple
I want to get Dragon Style for charging unimpeded, but the 15 Str prereq is going to be the hardest, as i don't truly plan on having a high str and eventually get Agile Maneuvers.
So, what options do i have outside of the grappling tactic? Isn't there an Improved/Extra Challenge stuff?
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I would like to pursue this build- the idea of a frog riding evildoers like broncos sounds like a fun idea.
I don't know how i should build him statwise- definitely more Dex based, and Brawler's Cunning may or may not negate the need for 13 Int.
12/18/14/10/14/10 plus some extra i can put somewhere. since both classes don't get will saves til 3, i figure use the Grippli's inherit wisdom to boost that a bit.
Order wise, i'm leaning more towards Order of the Dragon.
Attack bonuses against the same foe i'm grappling, the ability to boost stats, all worth while pursuits.
looking for advice on continuing this build.
Honestly, the more I'm looking into the cavalier the more I realize how lackluster the class is.
The constable archetype gives up one of the stronger features of the cavalier. The mount.
And while you'll get the nifty ability to grapple at the end of a charge, it also trades away the cavalier's bonus to charges... kinda stunts itself.
Squad commander should come in handy for the Tactician ability, since it would patch one of the big flaws of it. The low uses per day limitation.
Too bad the Tactician ability isn't any good. You're getting teamwork feats at level 1, 9 and 17, and for the first 16 levels the Tactician ability will only function for those feats taken at level 1/9.
You can't even switch them out like the Inquisitor. You're stuck with the first feat you had to take at cavalier level 1 for 8 whole levels. The problem with this is that the better feats are locked away with BAB requirements.
I'd recommend you to simply walk up to enemies and grapple them instead of even wasting a level on this class.
/rant over
*****
You're gonna be pretty weak.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers just to be as good as you would have been if you had gone STR. And since you'll have Heavy armor prof you won't even benefit that much from going Dex instead of Str.
You would normally have this grapple ability on the side and focus on mounted combat, but since the archetype trades that away you'll just fall behind in damage quite obviously.
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Honestly, the more I'm looking into the cavalier the more I realize how lackluster the class is.
The constable archetype gives up one of the stronger features of the cavalier. The mount.
And while you'll get the nifty ability to grapple at the end of a charge, it also trades away the cavalier's bonus to charges... kinda stunts itself.
Mounted combat is pretty sketchy, especially in PFS where there are few situations to actually use it.
That's one of the main reasons why you rarely see Samurai and Cavaliers in PFS.That's one reason why i was looking at this archetype.
Squad commander should come in handy for the Tactician ability, since it would patch one of the big flaws of it. The low uses per day limitation.
Too bad the Tactician ability isn't any good. You're getting teamwork feats at level 1, 9 and 17, and for the first 16 levels the Tactician ability will only function for those feats taken at level 1/9.
You can't even switch them out like the Inquisitor. You're stuck with the first feat you had to take at cavalier level 1 for 8 whole levels. The problem with this is that the better feats are locked away with BAB requirements.
Escape Route & Ferocious Loyalty don't have Prerequisites, and Outflank only needs a BAB of +4. Not much else really stands out.
And i have looked over the Inquisitor, and honestly- i like the idea of being able to grant everyone the teamwork feat, albeit a few times a day.
Hording Teamwork feats isn't that great.
I'd recommend you to simply walk up to enemies and grapple them instead of even wasting a level on this class.
That's not very fun. :p At least with Apprehend, it's a free Grapple attempt. I'd have to be a monk, or drop the Strangler archetype, and try to grapple in a Flurry.
You're gonna be pretty weak.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers just to be as good as you would have been if you had gone STR. And since you'll have Heavy armor prof you won't even benefit that much from going Dex instead of Str.
Obviously I'm going to be weak. I'm a small frog wielding cestus- that's what, a 1d3?
Yup, damage is very much lacking. Piranha strike and the 2d6 sneak attack while grappling is going to be my primary source of damage.I've honestly never been a fan of 20+ Str Barbarians that rely on such devastating damage to get through a fight.
why not have fun with these builds? Though, i do have a similar build already- a Gnome U.Rogue/Warpriest.
And I've never been a fan of heavy-armor builds. I already have a slow movement being small, heavy armor will just slow me down even more. yea, i won't have a high ac if i stick with light armor.
You would normally have this grapple ability on the side and focus on mounted combat, but since the archetype trades that away you'll just fall behind in damage quite obviously.
meh. never wanted to bother with mounted combat anyways.
I could try to integrate the Inquisitor class into this build. since this is PFS, and the "level cap" is 12, I technically won't even make use of the second bonus of the Badge ability.
All the inquisitor class would do for me, is give me more Teamwork feats to dole out with my Tactician ability, and a few other utilities- like Divine Favor.
1> Brawler
2> Brawler
3> Cavalier
4> Inquisitor?
Yep, this idea may be practically implausible, but let's try to get it to work.
Also, I don't want to solely focus on the possible grappling aspect. I want to utilize all aspects of the classes.
Rant about the tactician abilityEscape Route & Ferocious Loyalty don't have Prerequisites, and Outflank only needs a BAB of +4. Not much else really stands out.
And i have looked over the Inquisitor, and honestly- i like the idea of being able to grant everyone the teamwork feat, albeit a few times a day.
Hording Teamwork feats isn't that great.
There are a multitude of teamwork feats which would be absolutely wonderful with the ability to grant them to every ally without prerequisites.
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I'd recommend you to simply walk up to enemies and grapple them instead of even wasting a level on this class.That's not very fun. :p At least with Apprehend, it's a free Grapple attempt. I'd have to be a monk, or drop the Strangler archetype, and try to grapple in a Flurry.
What do you mean?
Apprehend will only let you make a grapple attempt in place of your usual melee attack on a charge. Not in addition, so it isn't free. And since you'll probably use your first standard action to activate Tactician, chances are you won't even be able to charge anyone.----------------------------------------
You're gonna be pretty weak.
Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers just to be as good as you would have been if you had gone STR. Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers just to be as good as you would have been if you had gone STR. And since you'll have Heavy armor prof you won't even benefit that much from going Dex instead of Str.
Obviously I'm going to be weak. I'm a small frog wielding cestus- that's what, a 1d3?
Yup, damage is very much lacking. Piranha strike and the 2d6 sneak attack while grappling is going to be my primary source of damage.
I've honestly never been a fan of 20+ Str Barbarians that rely on such devastating damage to get through a fight.
why not have fun with these builds? Though, i do have a similar build already- a Gnome U.Rogue/Warpriest.
And I've never been a fan of heavy-armor builds. I already have a slow movement being small, heavy armor will just slow me down even more. yea, i won't have a high ac if i stick with light armor.
You might be a small frog, but that doesn't mean you have to be weak.
Would a small frog really try to battle in the same way that a cranked up barbarian does? No, he would find another way to overcome his weakness.And the Grippli does actually has 30 ft base movement, so you won't have to worry about lower movement speed.
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You would normally have this grapple ability on the side and focus on mounted combat, but since the archetype trades that away you'll just fall behind in damage quite obviously.meh. never wanted to bother with mounted combat anyways.
I could try to integrate the Inquisitor class into this build. since this is PFS, and the "level cap" is 12, I technically won't even make use of the second bonus of the Badge ability.
All the inquisitor class would do for me, is give me more Teamwork feats to dole out with my Tactician ability, and a few other utilities- like Divine Favor.
Actually, you can't dole out the teamwork feats you have gotten from inquisitor with the Tactician ability, since they made the limitation that you can only grant the bonus teamwork feats you have gotten from the cavalier class.
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1> Brawler
2> Brawler
3> Cavalier
4> Inquisitor?Yep, this idea may be practically implausible, but let's try to get it to work.
Also, I don't want to solely focus on the possible grappling aspect. I want to utilize all aspects of the classes.
The problem with this is that pathfinder punishes those who don't specialize. You can choose between being good at one thing, or bad at several.
Nevertheless, could you explain what aspects of the cavalier class you want to utilize? As I can't see what it actually will do for you, I'm having trouble helping you.
Anyway, the Order of the Pentinent and the Strangler feat are both relevant to a grappling cavalier with SA.
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Damn, I misread the Apprehend ability.
And i looked into the Order of Penitent, and I didn't see much about it that appealed to me.
The +1 to CMD is meh, and the "instant tie up" is also meh.
I liked the aforementioned Order of the Dragon for the Freebooter's Bane-esque bonus, and the ability to buff allies.
I didn't intend for this build to be grapple-focus build, where people would have just argued that Tetori monks were optimally better. But if that's the direction this build should go, then maybe i should focus more on the Brawler class then the Cavalier.
As for the aspects of the cavalier i like, are pretty much the Tactician ability, the challenge, and the badge.
TBC...
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I think you are missing something with Order of the Penitent. Expert Captor lets you Tie Up a Grappled Opponent. You don't have to have him Pinned first, and you don't take the -10 you normally take. If you take Greater Grapple, and you begin your round adjacent to yoru opponent, you might Initiate your Grapple as a Standard Action (like normal) then Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action. You have a fair chance of just taking down anybody or anything in 1 round.
But then it begs the question- do i continue with the Strangler build? If i can tie up an opponent, i don't need to do bother with sneak attack from the Strangler's sneak attack- though the "negate loss of dex while grappling" ability is good; unless i keep with 2? Brawler/2? Cavalier
tying up an opponent would be relevant when we want to keep someone alive, but for truly hostile foes that we don't need to interrogate- i could still just beat the snot of them.
The bare bones of this feature is 2 Feats and a level 2 class ability. That's not a focus: that's just a feature.
You can do other things to bridge Grappling into your regular Combat. Fight with a Morning Star and Spiked Shield. Wear Armor Spikes. Take the Hamatula Strike Feat. Any attack with a Piercing Weapon gives you a Free Grapple Attack, and if you are wearing Armor Spikes, any successful Grapple attack gives you a bonus 1d6 Armor Spike Damage.
Looking at weapons, and there aren't many with the Grapple addition. Kumade is a simple 2-handed weapon, Harpoon and Garrot are both exotic.
You were thinking about Sneak Attack Damage. Take Dirty Trick Feats, to Blind your...
sneak attack was just an additional source of damage. with a small creature and relatively low strength [compared to other predominate martial classes], i need the additional damage where i can.
honestly, Dirty Trick is something a dubious character would rely on. if I'm playing a psuedo-Bounty Hunter Cavalier, it doesn't sound honorable.Speaking of Bounty Hunter...
The fastest way to pump up your Grapple Bonus is to take 4 levels in Alchemist. Strength Mutagens raise your Strength by +4. The Tentacle Discovery gives you Grab: +4 on all Grapple Checks. And a Crab Tumor Familiar gives you a +2. You could be a Vivisectionist and do more Sneak Attack Damage. Or you could be a Grendadier and shoot Exploding Arrows.
The point is, a couple of levels in Cavalier can be a delicious part of a Grappler's nutritious breakfast. Take another look.
so, take more classes that emphasize a tactic i wasn't going to really implement?
Vivo is also banned in PFS.That said- I like the support possibilities of the Constable. Use Tactician to give everyone Outflank/Ferocious Loyalty/Escape Route, then give myself Coordinated Maneuvers to boost my own grappling capabilities.
Strangler is a flavorful choice- as a grippli clinging onto enemies trying to punch the snot outta them or just outright subdue them.
I'd like to try to minimize overly multiclassing, I'd also like to be proficient in combat when grappling isn't an option. [Though, can you imagine a grippli being Fastball Special'd at a flying monster?].
I know this is an entirely unconventional build, but it may look like it could work.
2 levels of Brawler, 5-6 of Cavalier [i would like the Badge ability, and i get a bonus feat at 6th], anything else?
Here we go.
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Possible Stat Array:
10(-2)
19(+2)
14
12
14(+2)
7
Strangler
1. Weapon Finesse (+ Martial Flexibility)
2. Piranha Strike(B)
Constable
3. Improved Grapple, IUS(B), Feint Partner(B)
4.
5. Combat Reflexes
Drill Sergeant
6. Combat Expertise(B)
7. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Improved Feint(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
Constable
8.
9. Iron Will/Greater Grapple
10.
11. Improved Iron Will
12.
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Decide how you want to fight with Martial Flexibility. Take Agile Maneuvers when you want to grapple stuff.
The fun starts when we hit level 7. You'll pick up another Tactician ability from Drill Sergeant, which you should be able to use the Squad Commander ability from Constable on.
After you've given your allies Improved Feint Partner you'll feint *every* enemy who can see you with Distracting Cloak (as a move action) and make them all provoke an AoO.
So a standard combat routine at level 7 would be:
Round 1
Standard Action-Tactician Ability
Move Action-Martial Flexibility
Round 2 (enemies have approached you)
Move Action feint everything, stealth, and then standard action grapple the closest enemy who'll lose their Dex mod to CMD. Or hit him.
Round 3
If you've taken order of the Penitent then tie that sucker up and feint just to give everyone another AoO.
Round 4
Find another target. Repeat Round 2.
Round 5
Tie em up. Your Tactician ability has run out by now, so use your move action for whatever.
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Just remember to max your Stealth and Bluff*. Might be a good idea to buy a +bluff item.
*Take that trait which switches Int for Cha for a Cha-based skill.
And your will save is gonna be baaad. Get every saves boost you can find. Cloak of Resistance/Pale Green Prism/Lucky Horseshoe to name a few.
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Apparently, I've caused quite a controversy with Strangler with Strangler. The consensus debating on whether or not Strangler gets official "sneak attack".
Anyways, that build looks very interesting, and every entertaining. Especially when I'm feinting from on the ceiling. yay climb speed!
should i stick with Cestus as my main weapon, or should i possible invest in a Kumade?
It all depends on how invested into grappling you want to become. The main selling point of the Cestus is that it doesn't hinder you while grappling. A weapon with the special quality "Grapple" doesn't give you the ability to grapple anybody with it unless you critically hit (and only then).
Unless you have Hamatula Strike, it's not recommended to make a grapple build while wielding a weapon.
And remember you're using Weapon Finesse. Kumade isn't finessable.
If you want to get away from grappling, then you could buy proficiency with Elven Curve Blade (Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone, 1500 gp), and use that one.
Because if you want to continue grappling you're gonna have to invest in it.
Brawling Enchantment, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (in a wayfinder), etc.
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Until the build starts falling into place, i may be a little more reliant on grappling.
I may even consider taking a different teamwork feat, aside from Feint Partner, and retraining into Feint Partner by 6th.
I'm beginning to wonder if Strangler is even needed for this build. the only thing that it gives me currently is a few extra feats and the ability to not lose my dex when grappling...
Until the build starts falling into place, i may be a little more reliant on grappling.
I may even consider taking a different teamwork feat, aside from Feint Partner, and retraining into Feint Partner by 6th.I'm beginning to wonder if Strangler is even needed for this build. the only thing that it gives me currently is a few extra feats and the ability to not lose my dex when grappling...
And the ability to skip 13 int for Combat Expertise.
I can see like two other Full BAB dips possible.
If you took 2 levels of UnMonk then you would get 2 bonus feats (Imp Grapple and Combat Reflexes), You'll be able to Grapple efficiently at lv 3.
10(-2)
19(+2)
14
13
13(+2)
7
UnMonk
1. Weapon Finesse, IUS(B), Improved Grapple(B)
Drill Sergeant
2. Piranha Strike(B)
UnMonk
3. Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes(B)
Constable
4. Feint Partner(B)
5. Combat Expertise
6.
Drill Sergeant
7. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Improved Feint(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
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You could take 2 levels of Vigilante for the ability to feint as a move action, and therefore not having to worry about Combat Expertise/Improved Feint at all. That would give you a Will save bonus too, so that might be more valuable than the 2 AC you'll lose when grappling.
But you won't be able to grapple effectively until level 5.
10(-2)
19(+2)
14
12
14(+2)
7
Constable.
1. Weapon Finesse, IUS(B), Feint Partner(B)
Drill Sergeant
2. Piranha Strike
Vigilante
3. Improved Grapple
4. Vigilante Talent: Cunning Feint
Constable
5. Agile Maneuvers
6.
Drill Sergeant
7. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Combat Reflexes(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
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The Constable grants it's biggest features at level 2 (with order of the Penitent) and level 3 (Squad Commander).
After that, there isn't really any reason to stay in the class since it got bad saves and no real class features to talk about.
The Badge/Banner ability sounds nice until you realize it's a Morale Bonus. The same bonus that Heroism grants, but worse.
It doesn't really matter where you take this build after level 7. By then, the base is finished.
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I consider Strangler the optimal choice, since Martial Flexibility is just that good. You can use Greater Grapple at level 6 instead of waiting for level 9 with Martial Flexibility. Also, it would be nice to avoid that -2 to AC, CMB and CMD.
10(-2)
19(+2)
14
12
14(+2)
7
Strangler
1. Weapon Finesse (+ Martial Flexibility)
2. Agile Maneuvers(B)
Constable
3. Improved Grapple, IUS(B), Feint Partner(B)
4.
5. Combat Reflexes
Drill Sergeant
6. Combat Expertise(B)
7. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Improved Feint(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
Martial Flexibility uses:
Piranha Strike
Deflect Arrow
Blind-Fight
Greater Grapple
Etc
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I may look into Alchemist for the Tentacle/Crab Familiar; or even the Bounty Hunter Slayer archetype after we've hit peak efficiency.
Though more levels of Constable/Drill Sergeant allows for longer Teamwork duration.
I could go
2 Brawler
3 Constable
4 Drill Sergeant
2 Constable
Time will tell if he survives to see his tactics work at higher tiers.
thanks for the help, this could be an interesting build.
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I may consider the later levels going for a class with Sneak Attack, so i can at least use the Strangler's first level ability- as currently, i have no Sneak Attack.
Unless there are combat feats that open up Sneak Attack.
If I go Unchained Rogue, I can retrain Weapon Finesse when i get lvl 3 U.Rogue and Finesse Training.
Brawler 1- Weapon Finesse* +Martial Flexibility
B2- Agile Maneuvers/Pirhana Strike
Cavalier 1/3- Improved Grapple, +IUS, +Escape Route*
C2/4-
C3/5- Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1/6- +Combat Expertise [Retrain Escape Route to Feint Partner]
F2/7- Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, +Improved Feint Partner, +Improved Feint
Unchained Rogue 1/8- Rogue's Finesse, Sneak Attack +1d6 [Retrain Weapon Finesse to something]
UR2/9- Strangler
UR3/10- +Finesse Training, Sneak Attack +2d6
C4/11- ??
C5/12- ??
I also want to say- I'm bland to the fact that Cavalier has Bluff as a class skill! wtf?!
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Thinking over this build, why shouldn't i get Cavalier to 2 FIRST? Granted, yes- i lose out on the second level bonus feat, but the later levels of the build relies on the second lvl ability of the Order of the Penitent, to tie up grappled enemies.
Also, since Cavalier gets Bluff- i'd be better getting that skill as high as i can until the build takes hold.
Cavalier 1> Weapon Finesse, +IUS, +Escape Route*
C2> Order of the Penitent
Brawler 1> Improved Grapple, +Martail Flexibility
B2/4- Agile Maneuvers/Piranha Strike
C3/5- Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1/6
F2/7
<U.Rouge 1>/8
either i can tie up at 2nd or i can tie up at 4th. downside- i won't have access to Agile Maneuvers at C2; whereas I won't have access to Tie Up at B2/2.
Either way, this character probably won't see much action and may just be a GM blob for a while.
Thinking over this build, why shouldn't i get Cavalier to 2 FIRST? Granted, yes- i lose out on the second level bonus feat, but the later levels of the build relies on the second lvl ability of the Order of the Penitent, to tie up grappled enemies.
For the first two levels you should use Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike (from Martial Flexibility) to fight, since you won't have the feats to grapple.
If you took two levels of Cavalier first, then you still wouldn't be able to grapple before level 3, but you wouldn't have Piranha strike for the first two levels either.
So, yes. If you think you can survive the first two levels without any kind of damage then Cavalier first is better, since you can Tie Up at level 3 instead of level 4.
Also, since Cavalier gets Bluff- i'd be better getting that skill as high as i can until the build takes hold.
You can place skill ranks in a skill even if it isn't one of your class skills.
You can place several skill ranks in a skill at once.|
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I'm half tempted to make this character an Ifrit since they have the alternate race trait of having "Once a day, Enlarge/Reduce Person."
granted, they do take a hit to Wisdom in a class that is severely lacking Will Saves; unless i go stat-wise 10/18/14/12/14/10
Unless there are magic items that can enable "Enlarge Person" save shelling out for a Wand; when it comes to grappling Large or Huge creatures, being Small is going to be a problem.
What's your thoughts on taking Rogue past lvl 7? I know i could just buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist, though as Piranha Strike gets stronger, my negative strength won't really matter when i'm pulling a -1Att/+2Dmg
I'm half tempted to make this character an Ifrit since they have the alternate race trait of having "Once a day, Enlarge/Reduce Person."
granted, they do take a hit to Wisdom in a class that is severely lacking Will Saves; unless i go stat-wise 10/18/14/12/14/10Unless there are magic items that can enable "Enlarge Person" save shelling out for a Wand; when it comes to grappling Large or Huge creatures, being Small is going to be a problem.
What's your thoughts on taking Rogue past lvl 7? I know i could just buy an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist, though as Piranha Strike gets stronger, my negative strength won't really matter when i'm pulling a -1Att/+2Dmg
Yeah it's a worthwhile investment. Maybe take Accomplished Sneak Attacker with your Rogue talent to get +3d6 SA at your third Rogue level.
*****
But if you're going with Ifrit, then that changes everything.
Ifrit (Darkvision, Outsider, Enlarge Person SA, +4 to Initiative)
Possible Stat Array:
13
19 (+2)
13
12
13 (-2)
7 (+2)
Strangler
1. Weapon Finesse, Martial Flexibility (MF)
2. Agile Maneuvers(B)
White Haired Witch
3. Combat Reflexes
4.
Constable
5. Final Embrace, IUS(B), Feint Partner(B)
6.
7. Improved Grapple
Drill Sergeant
8. Combat Expertise(B)
9. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Improved Feint(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
MF:
1-3: Piranha Strike
4: Final Embrace
5-6: Improved Grapple / Deflect Arrow / Dedicated Adversary
7-9: Greater Grapple
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At level 4 you'll fulfill the prerequisites for Final Embrace, which grants you the Grab and Constrict special abilities on attacks made against enemies up to your size. +4 to Grapple checks to start and maintain a grapple, and your unarmed strike damage on successful grapple checks.
You'll get a needed +3 to Will saves from the witch dip and the spell Recharge Innate Magic (for your Enlarge Person SA). Your familiar could either boost your Will save with an additional +2, or initiative by another +4, or just another +2 to grapple checks.
=================================================
Going White Haired Witch, begs the question- why even bother go Constable/Drill Sergeant?
The Tie Up ability is always neat, so 2 levels of Cavalier is pretty common in dedicated grapple builds. The whole Constable/Drill Sergeant part is just to make the Tactician ability relevant.
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I'm half considering going Vanguard/Slayer after 7th lvl instead of UnChained Rogue. by 8th lvl i should have enough for an Agile Amulet of the Mighty Fist.
more tactician uses! :D granted it's slower Sneak Attack progression, and i don't get the Finesse Training.
2 Brawler, 5 Cavalier, 2 Fighter, 3 Slayer for 4 uses of Tactician, and some legit sneak attack
or
2 Brawler/5 Cavalier/2 Fighter/3 U.Rogue for free weapon finesse/finesse training, and better sneak attack progression...
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well, I am pleased to announce that Teht, my grappling grippli has reached level 7.
His most impressive exploits were grappling Cyclops in Peril & Plunder module and grappled and tied up a Fire Drake in Broken Family, Forgotten Name.
I've often forget to use Tactician and even Challenge, but now that i may be going Distracting Cloak/Improved Feint Partner...
I am still debating if taking three levels of U.Rogue is pertinent for this build, i still do like the Vanguard Slayer.
if anyone has other suggestions for 8th and beyond, i'll consider it.
Congratulations, little frog.
It's been a long time since I wrote in this thread, so let's do a quick re-cap.
You're using this build, right?
Strangler
1. Weapon Finesse (+ Martial Flexibility)
2. Piranha Strike(B)
Constable
3. Improved Grapple, IUS(B), Feint Partner(B)
4.
5. Combat Reflexes
Drill Sergeant
6. Combat Expertise(B)
7. Equipment Trick: Distracting Cloak, Improved Feint(B), Improved Feint Partner(B)
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And what do your saves/AC look like? Is there some problem you've faced that you wish to be able to overcome?
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I have Agile Maneuvers instead of Pirahna Strike. Adding my Dex to CMB is more pertinent than adding to my already meager damage output [1d3+1 w/ +1 Cestus, or 1d4 with Unarmed]. More often than not, i've been using Expert Captor to incapacitate enemies; and if i use Martial Flexibility- i often go for Dedicated Adversary for the temporary Favored Enemy bonus.
Stats:
10 Str (-2 R)/20 Dex (+2 R, +1 B4)/14 Con/12 Int/14 Wis (+2 R)/7 Cha @7
AC is currently 21 (+4 from Mithral Chain Shirt, +5 from Dex, +1 from Size, +1 Ring of Protection).
My Saves are 12 Fort, 10 Reflex, 4 Will [3/3/0 Brawler + 3/1/1 Cavalier + 3/0/0 Fighter + Cloak/Resistant +1], i will definitely need invest in someway to boost my will saves.
I got quite a bit of gold from running through the entirety of Perils & Plunder module, so i do plan on buying some better equipment- like possible Ghost Touch Armor Spikes or just the Ghost Spike armor upgrade.
Right now, i'm half tempted to invest in U.Rogue early so i can possibly retrain Weapon Finesse into Iron Will.
I saw the Rogue Trick "This Whole Time" allows me to use a Wand of Vanish, which would work nicely with Distracting Cloak.
I have Agile Maneuvers instead of Pirahna Strike. Adding my Dex to CMB is more pertinent than adding to my already meager damage output [1d3+1 w/ +1 Cestus, or 1d4 with Unarmed]. More often than not, i've been using Expert Captor to incapacitate enemies; and if i use Martial Flexibility- i often go for Dedicated Adversary for the temporary Favored Enemy bonus.
All good choices.
Right now, i'm half tempted to invest in U.Rogue early so i can possibly retrain Weapon Finesse into Iron Will.
I saw the Rogue Trick "This Whole Time" allows me to use a Wand of Vanish, which would work nicely with Distracting Cloak.
Unfortunately, "This Whole Time" is a chained rogue talent, which means you can't take it as an Unchained rogue.
But how would it synergize with Distracting Cloak? Feint, then stealth, then Vanish while they can't see you?That would work, but you could just use the Wand and go invisible normally.
If you want to use a specific wand, then you could buy the Wand Key Ring for a +10 insight bonus. Add in a MWK tool for 50 gp, and you should be able to get a high enough bonus with your skill ranks.
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I'd say that your biggest concern right now is your Will save, and Bluff Modifier. You should of course invest money into those two problems, but you can also take levels of Vigilante.
Full BAB, good Will save progression, bonus feats and all that. The social talent you pick at first level should be Social Grace, which would give you +4 to Bluff.
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Edit: and use consumables like Meditation Tea/Wand of Protection from Evil. There's no shame in having a temporary bonus!
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My Bluff modifier is pretty decent, currently at a +11 with Clever Wordplay shifting my Int bonus to Bluff.
though, i haven't been feinting much.
Some gear i'm considering:
Cape of Bravado- +1 Insight to AC, +5 Bluff to Feint... though it's a "cloak" it's slotless. :)
Resplendent Uniform Coat- One additional use to Tactician, increase range. Opting of this over the Vambraces.
I'd rather not spend money on a Headband of Intellect to boost my Feint, so i'm looking for alternatives.
my other magic gear includes some Armbands of hte Brawler for an effective 500g to negate size penalty, and Gauntlets of Twisting Vines... a +2 circumstance bonus stacks with the armband's +1 competence bonus. I was just going to buy Gauntlets of Skill Maneuver for an untyped +2 bonus, but i like the "fear factor" of the GoTV just wrapping up enemies- even though i do have Expert Captor.
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I just realized, my little frog is now 8th- so figuring out his latest advancement is important.
U.Rouge gets him Finesse, so i can retrain Weapon Finesse.
I was also considering Spellbreaker Inquisitor, as he recently begun to venerate Gozreh after the god save his ass in the Perils & Plunder module.
Vigilante doesn't offer much, aside from the boost to will saves. Though, the Hangman archetype is humorously relevant to the build. i think i still have net proficiency...
lastly, i don't think i'll need to get to 5th lvl of Cavalier. The Badge ability, although nice isn't necessarily useful in the build, as it only works when i Challenge something.
My Bluff modifier is pretty decent, currently at a +11 with Clever Wordplay shifting my Int bonus to Bluff.
though, i haven't been feinting much.Some gear i'm considering:
Cape of Bravado- +1 Insight to AC, +5 Bluff to Feint... though it's a "cloak" it's slotless. :)
Resplendent Uniform Coat- One additional use to Tactician, increase range. Opting of this over the Vambraces.
Yup, those are pretty worthwhile. Increasing the range from 30 to 60ft should make the Tactician ability affect all your allies in most cases.
Also, I didn't know about this trait two years ago, but it would be a better fit for your Feint if your GM allows you to switch out Clever Wordplay. Cunning Liar
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U.Rouge gets him Finesse, so i can retrain Weapon Finesse.
You gain one feat, a boost in the worst save, UMD as class skill, but not much more. If you're looking to invest more levels in UnRogue, then I'm sure you can find some way to synergize rogue with your build. But a 1 lv dip isn't recommended.
I was also considering Spellbreaker Inquisitor, as he recently begun to venerate Gozreh after the god save his ass in the Perils & Plunder module.
Good will saves, reroll ability vs Mind-Affecting, Domain/Inquisition. Hasn't got much else going for it if you're looking for more than a dip, but it would definitely help your will saves.
Vigilante doesn't offer much, aside from the boost to will saves. Though, the Hangman archetype is humorously relevant to the build. i think i still have net proficiency...
With the Avenger specialization, you can always choose to take one combat feat every even level. And there's always some interesting vigilante talent to aim for, with the added benefit of social talents. Think of it as a social fighter with good will saves.
lastly, i don't think i'll need to get to 5th lvl of Cavalier. The Badge ability, although nice isn't necessarily useful in the build, as it only works when i Challenge something.
Agreed. You'd only take 2 levels of cavalier if we didn't want the Squad Commander ability. If you play it right, you'll have unlimited uses of your Tactician ability, which is the only reason you have 3 levels in cavalier.
What level is this character supposed to retire at? 12?
If it's soon, then you could dip around as you want. But if it's around 20, I'd probably decide on what class to settle for.
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Assuming you have Cape of Bravado, Cunning Liar, and 8 ranks in Bluff, we're looking at a +18 to Feint. Add in a MWK tool to feint (colored stripes on your forearms?) for a total of +20.
The lowest feint DCs of CR 8 monsters is around 24, while the highest sits on 31. I'd take Skill Focus sooner or later to make the Feint attempts certain, but you're pretty okayish at the moment.
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I plan on taking at least three levels of U.Rogue for Rogue's Finesse so my damage can at least be something to consider even with Piranha Strike/Dedicated Adversary and my Challenge, and without having to spend money on an Agile enhancement; that, and the Rogue Talent and the actual Sneak Attack progression.
I do like the Squad Commander ability, as- it doesn't count towards my use of Tactician, players 'hold onto' for upto an hour, the teamwork feat itself lasts for minutes rather than rounds, and i can use it an unlimited of times per day. Hell, i should have been using Squad Commander a lot more.
Badge is moot.
Sadly, this is a PFS character, and i can't retrain Traits.
And yes, once the character hits level 12, there's very few chances for me to play it again. so, basically, an 11-lvl build, with the 12th progression is moot.
2 Brawler/4 Cavalier/2 Fighter/3 U.Rogue would effectively wrap up the build.
what armor/weapons enhancements should i consider? i would like to get Ghost Touch weapons or Ghost Spike armor, as incorporeal are my bane.
and i do believe- i've been forgetting my grapple bonus from Improved Grapple all this time!
7 BAB* + 5 Dex +2 Gauntlets +1 Armbands +2 Improved Grapple +1 Apprehend -1 Size = +17 [+18 vs my Challenge]
*U.Rogue is 3/4 BAB.
Alright. Get a Ghost Touch AoMF, as it will affect your gauntlet since they're unarmed attacks. Also an alternative for Agile.
You can consider taking Kobold Style, for a +4 to grapple when you feint-stealth. Iron Will/Skill Focus are on the list, as are other grapple feats or Accomplished Sneak Attacker.
I don't see what the 4th level of cavalier brings you, and personally I'd consider the Inquisitor dip before that.
Kobold Style is not PFS legal. I'd edit if it wasn't impossible on mobile.
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4000g for an upgrading my Cestus to +2, the enchanting it with Ghost Touch seems like a better idea than a Ghost Touch Amulet and take up my neck slot.
I was looking at Charging Stag Style- can turn while charging, ignore difficult terrain and allies while charging, though- i'd need Dodge and Mobility.