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I am working on a build for a character and could use a little help tweaking him, picking feats, etc.
The concept is a human with some dwarven blood in him (Racial Heritage Feat, and Adoptive Parentage alternate human trait) who wears heavy armor/heavy shield, and wields a Dorn-Dergar.
Here is what I have so far:
Str: 18 (after +2 racial)
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Traits: Reactionary, Shield Trained (Gorum)
1. Feat: Racial Heritage - Dwarf
Bonus Feat: Power Attack (Swap for Double Slice at 4?)
2. Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus – Dorn-Dergar
3. Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
4. Bonus Feat: Dorn-Dergar Master
5. Feat: Darting Viper
6. Bonus Feat: Shield Focus
7. Feat: Weapon Specialization - Dorn-Dergar
8. Bonus Feat: Shield Slam
9. Feat: Greater Shield Focus
10. Bonus Feat: ?
11. Feat: ?
12. Bonus Feat: ?
As is, he would wield the Dorn-Dergar 2 handed until he reaches level 4 and picks up the feat that allows him to wield it 1 handed. At that point he would grab a shield (heavy steel, which would count as a light weapon due to the Shield Trained trait) I would start with medium armor and upgrade to the heaviest I could afford as I level.
I am fairly new to Pathfinder and I am not sure my feats are optimal, or even correct. (other than the racial heritage and adoptive parentage stuff, which is for flavor instead of min/maxing)
I was also unsure if there were any archetypes which would benefit this build, if so I would love to hear about them :)
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Please don't move this to a non PFS forum: the poster is doing some things that may interact oddly with PFS rules.
As far as I can see without having dwarves of golarion, the feats are legal, but nothing is calling them out as legal only for dwarven characters or people adopted by dwarves. Does anyone with the book see any reason why that build requires the feat Racial heritage dwarf? (which you can otherwise add as background)
Optimization wise: I am not a fan of two weapon fighting builds. In my experience pfs fights tend to be either mobile or rocket taggy: holding still and two weapon fighting tend to be very hit or miss.
Ranger might work better than fighter. Not only do you get 2 good saves instead of one, and more skillpoints (which are far more relevant in pfs than most other campaigns) , but you can either take the sword and board fighting style or the two weapon fighting style which let you either skip out on dex or give you shield master within reasonable PFS levels.
I will second that skills are important. In home games having a +15 to a skill means very little, the DCs are crazy high or never come up. In PFS lots of skills are called out for in the scenario, so having skills can let you succeed at more of the game.
Yeah, the racial heritage so far is just a hindrance to him. Nothing he has cares if he counts as dwarf, but he wants to be a dwarf so that's why he's taking it.
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Adoptive Parentage is the more important of the 2 racial abilities, since it is the one that gives me dwarven language and weapon proficiency. I wasn't sure if there were any feats, items, etc. that I might want to take down the line, which is why I added Racial Heritage in there, plus of course the flavor of having actual dwarven blood fit the character perfectly.
As a fighter, I didn't think losing 1 feat was a huge loss, since fighters get so many feats.
Two-Weapon Fighting is a pre-req for the 'Dorn-Dergar Master' feat, which was the main reason I took it. But it allows be to wield the Dergar and punch people in the face with a shield, and fighters benefit from having a good dex because of their armor training, so I figured it would be a good choice. Dropping the dex might get me an extra +1 on my Str related rolls (start at 20 Str instead of 18) but the +2 on Dex rolls seemed like a better option (more AC, better reflex saves, unlocks a lot of feats, etc)
This character is for PFS, which is why I posted it here. I have seen other people ask for build advice here, and when I post in the regular PFRPG side of the boards people always want to recommend 3rd party stuff even if I specifically state in the post that it is for society play.
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Anyone else care to chime in?
Would I be better off just dropping the shield idea and focusing on just wielding the Dorn-Dergar 2 handed and going for more of a power attack/cleave kind of build? If so would fighter be the best class, or would I be better off going to Barbarian, Bloodrager, Warpriest, or maybe multiclassing fighter and something else?
If I ditch TWF, should I pick up combat reflexes and lunge to be able to threaten and AoO anything that comes remotely close?
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I'd choose between Racial Heritage or Adoptive Parentage. Are you adopted by Dwarves? Or are you part Dwarf? It's just easier to pick one, and replace the other option with something that benefits your build.
I'd go with Slayer. An off-the-cuff list of recommendations would include:
FEATS/TALENTS:
1st - Weapon Focus (Dorn-Dergar), Power Attack
2nd - (Talent) Ranger Combat Style, Weapon and Shield, bonus feat: Two-weapon Fighting
3rd - Improved Shield Bash
4th - (Talent) Rogue Talent, Combat Trick, bonus feat: Dorn-Dergar Master
5th - Darting Viper
6th - (Talent) Ranger Combat Style, Weapon and Shield, bonus feat: Shield Master
7th - Accomplished Sneak Attacker
8th - (Talent) Rogue Talent, Weapon Training, bonus feat: Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
9th - Heavy Armor Proficiency
10th - (Talent) Ranger Combat Style, Weapon and Shield, bonus feat: Bashing Finish
So, by 9th level, save up for +1 Mithral Fullplate of Speed. It counts as Medium Armor, so you can use your Ranger Combat Style. And you'll have a +2 to +3 Dex mod, which the armor allows for up to +3.
Just some thoughts. You could probably tinker with it and optimize it further.
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Slayer is an interesting option, which I had not considered. I always thought of them more as slightly tougher rogues. I will have to do some reading up about them.
I was also considering going Warpriest instead of fighter if I skip the shield. Swap the 15 Dex and 12 Wis to 12 Dex and 15 Wis.
If I focus on two-handed fighting instead of weapon and shield, is there much call for a cleave based build in PFS? How about the dwarven cleave chain? If not cleave, what other 2 handed related builds would be a good chain to climb?
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I'd avoid Cleave, personally. I actually have an 8th level Eldritch Knight that will be Retraining Cleave next level because he's used it literally once so far in his career. As much as people disparage it on the forums, I'd go Vital Strike instead. You can even pick it up as a bonus feat when you reach 6th level.
As far as Slayer goes, you could frame yourself as being a hunter of Dwarven enemies. Even though you're worshiping Gorum, you could still venerate Torag (since you were adopted by Dwarves) and operate using Torag's Paladin Code.
The other benefit to Slayer really is your skill count. Don't underestimate or ignore that. PFS is very skill intensive. Being good at a group of skills, such as (Acrobatics/Climb/Survival/Swim/Stealth) or (Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff/Disguise/SenseMotive) or (Perception/Knowledges/Profession) will keep you from getting bored outside of combat and allow you to flush out your character more than just "I hit things".
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How would something like this do for a slayer build?
Human - Slayer 1
Str: 18 (after +2 racial)
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
Traits: ?
1. Feat: Power Attack
2. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Weapon Training – Dorn-Dergar
3. Feat: Furious Focus
4. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Darting Viper
5. Feat: Iron Will
6. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Vital Strike
7. Feat: Lunge
8. Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
9. Feat: Devastating Strike
10. Slayer Talent: Ninja Master Trick - Evasion
11. Feat: Improved Vital Strike
12. Slayer Talent: Assassinate
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hmm, how about this then?
1. Feat: Power Attack
2. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Weapon Training – Dorn-Dergar
3. Feat: Furious Focus
4. Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5. Feat: Darting Viper
6. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Vital Strike
7. Feat: Lunge
8. Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Trap spotter
9. Feat: Devastating Strike
10. Slayer Talent: Ninja Master Trick - Evasion
11. Feat: Improved Vital Strike
12. Slayer Talent: Assassinate
Got any suggestions for traits? I saw a few that boost will saves against specific types of attacks, I was thinking about going with the Grand Lodge faction, which would let me take Observant for a +1 to all my perception rolls.
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You can't benefit from Evasion unless you're wearing light armor, and that seems to deviate from your initial concept.
I originally suggested Slayer because, with Studied Target and Sneak Attack, they make good two-weapon warrior types. If you're abandoning that idea, it might be best to go with something else.
I'd also probably not aim for anything higher than Vital Strike. Vital Strike by itself is a nice alternative when you can only make a single attack, but it's rarely worth investing any higher.
If I were you, I'd probably just sit down and hammer out a concept. What do you want to do? What do you want to be good at?
Then, when you have your idea in mind, hammer out the mechanics.
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When I started PFS I had several Dwarf concepts myself, so I decided to make a few different builds and dedicate a character to each. Together, they're Clan Axeflail. And each does something entirely different.
Valor is actually an Oread, but he took the Dwarf-Blooded Feat (so very similar to what you're doing). His focus is mounted combat.
Brevick Axeflail is a Dwarf Magus. His focus is Sundering.
Torgunn Axeflail is a Dwarf Cleric. He's the one with a two-handed weapon.
And Toujuk is an Axeflail by blood, but he's imposed an exile upon himself (so no surname). His focus is the Light Crossbow.
Maybe you could do something similar with a few different Dwarf characters.
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How does this look for a Warpriest?
Human Warpriest of Torag 1
(Adoptive Parentage - Dwarf alternate racial)
Str: 18 (After +2 racial)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 7
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Blessings: Good, Protection
1. Feat: Racial Heritage - Dwarf
Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus – Dorn-Dergar
3. Feat: Power Attack
Bonus Feat: Furious Focus
5. Feat: Darting Viper
6. Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization – Dorn-Dergar
7. Feat: Lightning Reflexes
9. Feat: Vital Strike
Bonus Feat: Lunge
11. Feat: Greater Weapon Focus – Dorn-Dergar
12. Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization – Dorn-Dergar
I've actually played through with a similar build as a straight fighter. The problem I ran into was that you end up splitting your focus between the TWF and the major benefit of the dorn dergar, using it as a one handed reach weapon.
TWF and a +1 Bashing light shield or a claw hand shield at later levels would be about the extent of what I would put towards it. Alternately pick a class that benefits from having that other hand free.
Darting Viper is something of a trap as a 5 ft step is usually more helpful than a move action to shorten/lengthen your reach.
I've actually played through with a similar build as a straight fighter. The problem I ran into was that you end up splitting your focus between the TWF and the major benefit of the dorn dergar, using it as a one handed reach weapon.
TWF and a +1 Bashing light shield or a claw hand shield at later levels would be about the extent of what I would put towards it. Alternately pick a class that benefits from having that other hand free.
Darting Viper is something of a trap as a 5 ft step is usually more helpful than a move action to shorten/lengthen your reach.
Darting viper uses a swift action to change the reach. Not a 5 ft step.
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Darting viper uses a swift action to change the reach. Not a 5 ft step.
If you are using it 2 handed...if you are using it 1 handed (with Dorn-Dergar Master) it is a move action. He was stating that instead of changing grips, it is usually better to just take a 5 foot step instead. I can see situations where changing grips and using a 5 foot step could be useful though.
I am leaning away from the 1 hand/shield build towards going just 2 handed with it using Power Attack/Vital Strike.
Anyone more familiar with playing a Warpriest care to comment on my planned Warpriest build I posted above?
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If you're going Warpriest you'll have trouble using Darting Viper.
With Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armor, Blessings, Fervor, Swift Action Spells and other potential abilities, you'll never have the action economy to switch grips.
Same for Inquisitor.
Swashbuckler and Weapon Versatility could be hilarious, though ^_^