RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'm unclear what the rogue adds here; it strikes me that straight Magus would be more effective. Note that by using a two-handed weapon, you're giving up the strongest ability of the Magus, i.e. spell combat. I'm not sure how you intend to wield a quarterstaff in combination with your polearm?
Arcane strike is not good on a Magus because you have better ways to use your swift actions. Prehensile hair is not so useful because it requires a standard action to activate. The other feat chains are solid.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Right. Well, it's a rather complicated combo but it looks like it'd work. Note that spear dancing style eliminates reach from your polearm. Given the sheer cost (and the fact that this doesn't do that much more damage than a scimitar) this isn't even overpowered per se. The best polearm is probably the fauchard, because of its crit range.
The key is to realize that dex to damage is not essential, since you can boost your damage with spells and the Bladebound archetype also adds to damage. So if your GM bans the straightforward way (i.e. dervish dance) you should consider going without.
Since the second rogue level doesn't give you anything except a bonus feat, you should retrain out of this as soon as possible (because a magus level is simply much better). Also, don't forget the accomplished sneak attacker feat.
Which other Swift actions should I look into? I need to spend the first on Spear Dancing Style and the second on Arcane Pool...
Well that's already two rounds of combat down, and combat doesn't last more than three or four rounds. Other swift actions include a number of arcana, quickened spells, or items like buffering cap or spell-storing armor. Doing +2 damage one or two rounds per combat isn't worth a feat.
If there hasn't been an errata this thread should help.
The basics are using spear dancing style to use quarterstaff mastery to use a polearm in a single hand. That's the major part.
Now if you have the time and want to you can then go ascetic style to apply unarmed strike feats and abilities to go hog with medusa's wrath and frigid touch (the spell) to get two extra attacks in.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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If there hasn't been an errata this thread should help.
I'm afraid your thread contains several people pointing out that your combo doesn't work. You should address those people in your thread.
If you want to flurry with a reach weapon, the straightforward approach is Monk 1 / Cleric 1 with the Crusader's Flurry feat. Then take any class you like, such as Magus. If you want a reach weapon as a Magus, the straightforward approach is to wield an undersized one, or take the feat Weapon Trick (polearm), or use a whip; the latter two also work with Bladebound.
If you want the best crit range and more damage than a scimitar, wield a Katana. Plus the Magus has plenty of ways to boost damage anyway. Finally, if you want to attach hexes to a weapon attack, use a conductive weapon (which gnomes can get from arcane pool). Otherwise, you're spending a lot of feats on not a lot of benefit.
Actually the question on the combination was resolved to me being right. You'll notice the later points were about the nerf to MoMS and not being able to use it with unchained monk. Without unchained monk the combination still works.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Actually the question on the combination was resolved to me being right.
Nice try, but clearly not. There are numerous remarks of "this doesn't work" that you've ignored. Bottom line is, your combo doesn't work.
But it's not really relevant to the OP anyway, so let's take that back to your thread.
Need trait Magical Knack to offset caster level delay by up to 2 levels. (No way to offset delay in Need trait Magical Knack to offset caster level delay by up to 2 levels. (No way to offset delay in spellcasting progression without a feat specific to the Pathfinder Society Field Guide (?), though).
Actually the question on the combination was resolved to me being right.Nice try, but clearly not. There are numerous remarks of "this doesn't work" that you've ignored. Bottom line is, your combo doesn't work.
But it's not really relevant to the OP anyway, so let's take that back to your thread.
The substitutions are quite straight forward.
Spear dancing spiral lets you use the polearm as a quarter staff for any feat or ability. Aestic style says, "while using this style and using a quarter staff..."
since you can use it with the quarterstaff you can use it with the polearm since spear dancing spiral lets you use the polearm with any feat or ability that you can use a quarterstaff for.
Unless you have something somewhere that says that the explicit wording of feats does not work the way they say they work other than "no" I don't see what the problem is.
As long as you can use both styles at once anything you can use a quarter staff for you can use the selected polearm for, and therefore ascetic style allows you to use it in the place of unarmed strikes.
I would point out that in that thread you are the only one that argued the point about the feat chaining and even then you stopped and moved on to other points after Casual Viking agreed with me on the substitutions.
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1. Aside from the polearm black blade, which the GM has already OKed, is there anything I've missed that makes this character against the rules?
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Yes. Sadly, Bladebound and Hexcrafter don't stack.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training.
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
Bladebound replaces the 3rd level Magus Arcana which is a subfeature of the Magus Arcana class ability.
But Hexcrafter alters the parent feature, the Magus Arcana class ability itself, by adding an additional Arcana to the list of Arcana that you can select. This parallels the FAQ's example of "adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select."
The FAQ states that "...if something alters the way the parent class feature works... you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features."
So Bladebound and Hexcrafter do not stack.
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Now Kurald Galain is almost certainly going to tell you that they do stack because Magus Arcana is not a feature that has subfeatures. So I'll forestall that argument with the following two points.
Here is Mark Seifter clarifying the rules regarding features/subfeatures (or parent/child features).
I have an expo to be at (now I'll be late by a few minutes :( ), so I must be brief, but I at least have the authority to explain what a FAQ already says. The FAQ says:
1) If you have a class feature that is broken into separate features with their names in italics (like bardic performance) or that are gained at multiple levels on the character chart (like weapon training), you can alter those child features separately.
2) Either way, if you mess with a parent feature (such as changing the rounds of bardic performance, or changing the ability score you use for deeds), no stacking.
3) Changing which class skills you have is messing with a parent feature. So is changing which bonus feats are on your list. If you do one of those, you can't take another archetype that also does anything with class skills or bonus feats, respectively. For instance, a fighter archetype that adds Iron Will to the list of fighter bonus feats would not stack with one that removed the 2nd level bonus feat. But the aforementioned "remove the 2nd level bonus feat" archetype would stack with one that removes the 4th level bonus feat.
Note that Magus Arcana fits the criteria for a feature with subfeatures because it is "a class feature that is broken into separate features... that are gained at multiple levels on the character chart."
I guess my confusion is stemming from what is defined as a "subfeature". Is it more along the lines of, say, swashbuckler and gunslinger deeds, magus arcana, or something else that you gain different abilities as part of the same feature?Yes, like deeds, which is technically a single class feature. Or bardic performances, as mentioned in the FAQ itself.
(2) Even if the Magus Arcana gained at separate levels were not subfeatures of the Magus Arcana feature, Bladebound and Hexcrafter still won't stack because then they would both be altering the singular Magus Arcana feature. (In fact if Magus Arcana doesn't have subfeatures then additional combinations like Bladebound/Kensai would be rendered impossible.)
The more you multiclass, the worse your Black Blade gets.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Would Weapon Trick (polearm) require a Strength build or is there a non-Spear Dancing Style way to get Weapon Finesse on a Polearm?
Elven branched spear is a finesseable polearm.
Would Weapon Trick (polearm) require a Strength build or is there a non-Spear Dancing Style way to get Weapon Finesse on a Polearm?
Hex strike requires "one hex that you can use to affect no more than one opponent". Prehensile hair affects yourself.
Yes. Sadly, Bladebound and Hexcrafter don't stack.So, given that Bladebound is somewhat a conceptual requirement for the build, is it better to give up on Hexes entirely or take a single level of Witch (with an Archetype that trades out the familiar) to regain access to Prehensile Hair, Flight and possibly Evil Eye?
Forum consensus is that Bladebound and Hexcrafter do stack; indeed it is one of the most common combinations of Magus played, after the kensai. Of course you should ask your GM, but most people do agree that it works.
That said, a one-level dip of witch won't give you flight (that requires 5 levels) nor evil eye (at least not with a meaningful DC).
Strict reading of RAW says bladebound & hexcrafter don't stack, but nearly everyone is ok with them stacking. Check with your DM, but it sounds like the Bladebound part is woven into the story, so I doubt you'll have problems there.
I feel like going Prehensile Hair is a mistake. Don't get me wrong it's a really cool ability, but you're putting so many resources into your scythe (you've delayed magus 2 levels & spent 2? feats getting it online, and you're only level 3) that adding prehensile hair feels like you're not making the most of that. Any time you use PH you're losing a turn just to activate it, and then every attack with your hair is essentially a missed attack with the scythe (also you can't use hair with spell combat without the right arcana). If you really like it for flavour, it's definitely fun, but mechanically it doesn't seem to add much.
Personally I am a fan of arcane/riving strike for a magus, although it depends on your build. Riving strike helps your spells land more easily, and since you can be attacking & casting it helps the synergy of the class. I will note though, that the build I have them on doesn't take many of the swift action arcana, & it uses Gloves of Arcane Striking & the Bodyguard feat, so I'm building around them a lot more than you probably want to.
I guess the trick is to look at what you want to be doing with your character, and then build around that.
Forum consensus is that Bladebound and Hexcrafter do stack; indeed it is one of the most common combinations of Magus played, after the kensai. Of course you should ask your GM, but most people do agree that it works.
That is not true. Since the archetype stacking FAQ came out, the overwhelming consensus is that they do not stack. I'll lay out the reasoning for you again, but in a slightly different format than before to help you understand how this works.
(1) Magus Arcana is a class feature with subfeatures.
I have an expo to be at (now I'll be late by a few minutes :( ), so I must be brief, but I at least have the authority to explain what a FAQ already says. The FAQ says:
1) If you have a class feature that is broken into separate features with their names in italics (like bardic performance) or that are gained at multiple levels on the character chart (like weapon training), you can alter those child features separately.
2) Either way, if you mess with a parent feature (such as changing the rounds of bardic performance, or changing the ability score you use for deeds), no stacking.
3) Changing which class skills you have is messing with a parent feature. So is changing which bonus feats are on your list. If you do one of those, you can't take another archetype that also does anything with class skills or bonus feats, respectively. For instance, a fighter archetype that adds Iron Will to the list of fighter bonus feats would not stack with one that removed the 2nd level bonus feat. But the aforementioned "remove the 2nd level bonus feat" archetype would stack with one that removes the 4th level bonus feat.
Note that Magus Arcana fits the criteria for a feature with subfeatures because it is "a class feature that is broken into separate features... that are gained at multiple levels on the character chart."
I guess my confusion is stemming from what is defined as a "subfeature". Is it more along the lines of, say, swashbuckler and gunslinger deeds, magus arcana, or something else that you gain different abilities as part of the same feature?Yes, like deeds, which is technically a single class feature. Or bardic performances, as mentioned in the FAQ itself.
(2) Hexcrafter changes the parent feature by adding a new Arcana to the list and also by allowing the selection of Hexes in place of Arcana.
Hex Arcana: A hexcrafter gains access to the following magus arcana, or may select any witch hex in place of a magus arcana. At 12th level, the hexcrafter may select a hex or major hex in place of a magus arcana. At 18th level, a hexcrafter can select a hex, major hex, or grand hex in place of a magus arcana. He cannot select any hex or arcana more than once.
Accursed Strike (Sp): A hexcrafter magus who can cast bestow curse, major curse, or any spell with the curse descriptor can deliver these prepared spells using the spellstrike ability, even if the spells are not touch attack spells.
(3) Bladebound changes the 3rd level subfeature by replacing it.
Black Blade (Ex): At 3rd level, the bladebound magus' gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus. A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class.
Instead of the normal arcane pool amount, the bladebound magus's arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/3 his level (minimum 1) plus his Intelligence bonus. This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.
(4) The archetype stacking FAQ says that if an archetype alters the way the parent class feature works - which Hexcrafter does - then you can’t stack it with an archetype that replaces any of the sub-features - which Bladebound does.
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training.
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
(5) So Hexcrafter and Bladebound don't stack.
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Previously you have stated that this argument is wrong because Magus Arcana does not have subfeatures, but even if that were true it wouldn't lead to the conclusion that you want. If Magus Arcana is a singular feature, then Hexcrafter and Bladebound are both changing the same feature, and the archetypes obviously don't stack.
I have to say that I am especially amused that you cite the Bladebound/Kensai combination in an attempt to support your argument. Since Bladebound changes the 3rd level Magus Arcana and Kensai changes the 9th level Magus Arcana, the only way that they will stack is if I am correct about them being subfeatures. If you are correct then those are both changing the same feature and so they don't stack.
So if you stick to your theory then you must conclude that both Bladebound/Hexcrafter and Bladebound/Kensai are disallowed, but if you accept the rules that I've laid out then at least Bladebound/Kensai is still legal. Either way, Bladebound/Hexcrafter is out.
Strict reading of RAW says bladebound & hexcrafter don't stack, but nearly everyone is ok with them stacking.
I think that is a very reasonable position. I don't have a problem with houserules, but I think it is important to be clear that they are houserules.
...also with Natural Spell Combat and Feral Combat Training it's an extra sneak attack whilst spell combating that also applies a -2 to AC or Saving Throws for 1 round, which is nice.
I somehow totally missed the hex-strike part =P
I wouldn't bother with arcane strike then, since arcane-strike & hex-strike both use a swift action to activate (& hex-strike kinda gives you riving strike anyway).
I'll mention it but I'm a bit compulsive about rules and I'm already bending things slightly to use the Bladebound in the first place. Spell Recall is an amazing ability to keep regardless.
Honestly, it's only breaking the rules if you read them in one extremely strict way, and most people don't.
If you look up at Gisher's posts about this, you'll see that he basically had to write a novel to explain why it's against the rules, then write another - longer - novel to explain it in even more detail, and still it's not obvious to everyone... If it's that hard to understand the only way you can interpret the rules accurately is: "ask your GM".So yeah, if you like the flavour of a bladebound-hex-crafter, go nuts, sounds fun.
Also, just a note: Hexcrafters do get Spell-recall back at level 11. It's kind of hidden in the class description since they lose spell-recall but not Improved-Spell-Recall. When they would normally get improved-spell-recall they instead get normal spell recall.
If you're playing mostly below level 12, Spell-Recall could be more powerful (depends how you play). If you're going to play a fair bit above level 13 (the level you'll get Spell recall back) you'll probably appreciate having those hexes more than improved-spell-recall.
I was planning to re-fluff it as wild and failing streams of blood rather than literal hair for the darkness elemental taint I mentioned in the background.
Awesome! Sounds Metal as F#&$!
Stuff
If you want to argue about this go start another thread.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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In this case, Hex Strike is for using Evil Eye by using Feral Combat Training and Natural Spell combat to apply Evil Eye via natural attacks with Prehensile Hair, rather than using Hex Strike to activate Prehensile Hair.
Yes, that works. Just be mindful of how many swift actions you intend to use each combat.
Also, note that the Misfortune hex has a similar effect but isn't mind-affecting.
Yes, that works. Just be mindful of how many swift actions you intend to use each combat.
Good advice.
Also, note that the Misfortune hex has a similar effect but isn't mind-affecting.
I actually like Evil eye better for a hexcrafter. Hexcrafters tend to have a lower INT than witches & Cael's taken a 2 level dip so his saves are gonna suffer pretty seriously. Evil eye affects enemies on even if they save, and if they fail their save it should last the entire combat (as opposed to 1 round for misfortune).
That said, mind-affecting might be a serious problem in Carrion-Crown. I haven't played it, but I feel like that's a safe assumption.I also like the SOOTHSAYER hex.
(I especially like this with Evil Eye since it affects them even if they save)
I'm curious, how exactly do we go about getting a "blackblade" spear/polearm? Isn't a blackblade only a 1h or light weapon? I get that weapon training polearm, or small polearm and 1h it, but neither of those fall into the "1h or light weapon". I was under the assumption that the weapon itself had to be one of those types, not the wielder treating the weapon as that.
Second question, spear dancing style turns a polearm into a double weapon. What does this mean in terms of a blackblade now being a double weapon? Does the shaft/haft of the spear keep the blackblade enhancements/enchantments? Or is it just a "stick"/mace?
I'm curious, how exactly do we go about getting a "blackblade" spear/polearm? Isn't a blackblade only a 1h or light weapon? I get that weapon training polearm, or small polearm and 1h it, but neither of those fall into the "1h or light weapon". I was under the assumption that the weapon itself had to be one of those types, not the wielder treating the weapon as that.
Second question, spear dancing style turns a polearm into a double weapon. What does this mean in terms of a blackblade now being a double weapon? Does the shaft/haft of the spear keep the blackblade enhancements/enchantments? Or is it just a "stick"/mace?
There is actually a lot of contradictory FAQ's on the issue of what a weapon is in any given circumstance. I have a thread here where I listed them out but we haven't seen any turn around on them yet.
StuffIf you want to argue about this go start another thread.
Fair enough.
I'm curious, how exactly do we go about getting a "blackblade" spear/polearm? Isn't a blackblade only a 1h or light weapon? I get that weapon training polearm, or small polearm and 1h it, but neither of those fall into the "1h or light weapon". I was under the assumption that the weapon itself had to be one of those types, not the wielder treating the weapon as that.You are right in general, in this particular case I have the DM's permission to use the combination due to events which have occurred in game (I picked up a sentient scythe then got a natural 1 on certain rolls).
However, it's only the Bladebound bit which doesn't work by the book, the rest is book-legal.
If your GM is fine with you converting an already existing weapon into a Blade Blade and is also fine with that weapon being the wrong type for a Black Blade, then why is there a problem with Blackblade stacking with Hexcrafter? It seems to me that you're already pretty deep into customized character creation. Why not just keep going?
There is actually a lot of contradictory FAQ's on the issue of what a weapon is in any given circumstance. I have a thread here where I listed them out but we haven't seen any turn around on them yet.I'm curious, how exactly do we go about getting a "blackblade" spear/polearm? Isn't a blackblade only a 1h or light weapon? I get that weapon training polearm, or small polearm and 1h it, but neither of those fall into the "1h or light weapon". I was under the assumption that the weapon itself had to be one of those types, not the wielder treating the weapon as that.
Second question, spear dancing style turns a polearm into a double weapon. What does this mean in terms of a blackblade now being a double weapon? Does the shaft/haft of the spear keep the blackblade enhancements/enchantments? Or is it just a "stick"/mace?
Yes, it is very confusing. I'd say it is one of the bigger rules issues at the moment.
If your GM is fine with you converting an already existing weapon into a Blade Blade and is also fine with that weapon being the wrong type for a Black Blade, then why is there a problem with Blackblade stacking with Hexcrafter? It seems to me that you're already pretty deep into customized character creation. Why not just keep going?The difference is in the cost/reward ratio compared to other options available:
For the Black Blade Polearm, I've done the 'legwork' and feat-payments needed to have the Polearm as a one-handed slashing weapon when I use it, so having it count as one-handed slashing weapon for purposes of being allowed to be a Black Blade has been paid for by taking the extensive feat chain- it's mostly for flavour.
It's also very feat inefficient compared to, say, just using a Black Blade Whip with Improved Whip Mastery, which would be much less feat intensive and more powerful (slightly less base damage, but most damage will be sneak attack or spell damage anyway, plus it would have Reach at all times and far lower cost in feats).
Basically, it's a sub-optimal but flavorful choice, which he is fine with and perhaps in favor of.Whereas allowing a disallowed archetype combination is a considerable benefit compared to someone following the rules as clarified and has no disadvantage or costs to balance it out- it's more optimal than just straight out optimizing within the rules.
Okay, I have a much better idea of your situation now. Thanks. I'm a big fan of flavor choices so I hope this can work out for you.
But, having said that, the real dealbreaker on the Hexcrafter is the Evil Eye Hex not working on Undead.
Our campaign is about tracking down and stopping a cult of Undead Necromancers, so the renewable, every-round Hex not working on the most commonly encountered opponents makes the Hexcrafter much less appealing.
Yes, neither Evil Eye nor Slumber (which I know you aren't allowed to use) are very good in heavy-undead campaigns. Hexcrafter delays Spell Recall, and that cost might not be worth it in this case.
When fighting undead, Close Range + Disrupt Undead + Spell Combat + Spellstrike isn't a bad combo. And an often overlooked property of Chill Touch is that it can be used to impose panic on undead.
Looking back over your OP, I see that you wanted a way to get Agile on your Blackblade. It is possible to add Agile temporarily through either the Occultist's Lagacy Weapon Focus Power or through the Warrior Spirit Advanced Weapon Training option. In your case the latter isn't really an option. You probably have at least a +2 or +3 Int modifier as a Magus. That will give you 3 or 4 points of Mental Focus each of which will get you Agile one minute. You could always take Extra Focus for two more points. Below is a breakdown of the pros and cons that I've posted in previous threads.
Downsides
(1) Legacy Weapon takes a standard action to activate, so instead of diving into battle right away, you are probably spending your first round of combat using a swift for Arcane Pool and a standard for Legacy Weapon, leaving you a with only a move action.
(2) You have set back your Magus progression by one level (spells, BAB, Arcane Pool, etc.). But that isn't as bad as taking three levels in Unchained Rogue to get Dex to Damage.
Upsides
(1) Obviously the primary benefit is that you can add Agile (or any other +1 equivalent ability) to your weapon. Once you can afford to purchase Agile for your weapon, options like Bane can be really good.
(2) You get two Resonant Powers. Transmutation gets you a +2 enhancement bonus to any physical ability score, and that's pretty much always useful. You're probably going to want to put all of your Mental Focus into the Transmutation Implement so the other Resonant Power won't be of use most of the time, but you never know.
(3) You get Spells and Spell Lists for two Implement Schools. Occultists have a lot of spells that you don't get as a Magus, and that's great for using Scrolls and Wands. I like the idea of selecting Conjuration for the healing spells. With a Wand of CLW, scroll of Delay Poison, and the Stabilize cantrip you can be a decent medic. And remember that the spells don't have verbal, somatic, or cheap material components. Being able to cast Mage Hand, Message, or Break while immobilized might prove handy sometime.
(4) You get a lot of new class skills: Appraise (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Sleight of Hand (Dex).
(5) You get one Focus Power. You are probably going to want to save your Mental Focus for Legacy Weapon, but there are a few that might be worth it in an emergency.
(6) You get proficiency with medium armor which is useful if you want to wear a mithral breastplate before level 7.
(7) You get proficiency with shields. That might prove useful in some circumstances.
(8) As a psychic caster, you get a few little extras like the Psychic Skill Unlocks.
Overall, I don't think it is a bad trade-off.
