Hi to everyone, this is my situation:
|T|
|D|
|E|
Where:
T = my character
D = my ally
E = Enemy.
Question is: can i ready an action to take a 5 foot step forward (taking the position of "D") when D take a 5 foot step backward? (taking my position in the process)
Thank you for the answers!
Edit: My master does not allow me to swap places in this way.. there is a rule for this? Something that deny this type of swap? (or vice versa there is a rule that allow it?)
You can ready to attack the enemy when you can, and then take your 5ft step as part of your readied action.
But D cannot take a 5ft step back, because you're in the way so he'd have to use an actual move action or 5ft somewhere else.
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I think it's pretty clear from the rules that you can:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
So in this case: "I ready an action to do nothing (free action) and take a 5 foot step back when my buddy steps forward." I think that satisfies all the conditions above. You do interrupt your buddy's movement, but once your five foot step is done there's nothing preventing him from continuing. Allies can be in the square temporarily, as long as no one ends their turn in the same square as an ally, which isn't happening here.
So in this case: "I ready an action to do nothing (free action) and take a 5 foot step back when my buddy steps forward." I think that satisfies all the conditions above. You do interrupt your buddy's movement, but once your five foot step is done there's nothing preventing him from continuing. Allies can be in the square temporarily, as long as no one ends their turn in the same square as an ally, which isn't happening here.
Actually my readied action was: "I take 5 foot step forward in place of my ally and take a total defense action" 5 foot step + standard action.
Problem is...can i take this 5 foot step forward when my ally take 5 foot step backward?
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Your ally doesn't have a valid space to move into, so the conditions of your readied action could not be met.
A frustrating corner case of the rules, and in my games it'd be fine, but as far as I know there is no way to do this without houseruling. Or a different situation, such as your ally e.g. withdrawing past you or both of you having this feat.
but because the readied action happens first, you don't have a valid space to end your 5 ft step in...
Allies can be in the square temporarily, as long as no one ends their turn in the same square as an ally, which isn't happening here.
Actually, it states that you can't end your movement in the same square as an ally which is an important distinction. If T readied an action to move into D's square as D moves into T's square, that would mean that T's five-foot step actually happens first.
As a consequence, T ends their movement in D's square before D has even moved. This is not allowed.As an aside, D not having a "valid space" to move into is irrelevant for this. What matters is that it's consistent after every movement which this plan does not fulfill.
I would probably houserule that it's okay, though. Having creatures go in a specific order during the turn is merely a useful abstraction, anyway, so it "makes sense" that you could swap places. Also, it doesn't entirely replace the "Swap Places" teamwork feat as that feat doesn't mess with your initiative.
This is not allowed.
In your opinion there is a way to word a readied action to actually swap position in that way?(so both T and D use a 5 foot step)
If the answer is no...how do you swap place with a readied action? One of the two use a move action instead of a 5 foot step?
This is not allowed.
In your opinion there is a way to word a readied action to actually swap position in that way?(so both T and D use a 5 foot step)
If the answer is no...how do you swap place with a readied action? One of the two use a move action instead of a 5 foot step?
No, you simply can't do this at all in a single turn. The rules are pretty clear on this. If you ready an action (move or five-foot step into D's square) to trigger on a specific other action (D moving into your square), then that means your readied action takes place before the triggering action. There's no two ways about this, you would be ending your movement in D's square which is very clearly forbidden by the rules.
However, what you could do is move into any other square before D moves into yours. So, you ready an action to move or five-foot step somewhere else (diagonally forward, for example) to trigger on D moving into your square and that should work. It would end up with D in the square where T previously was and T... somewhere else, as long as they're not in T's or D's previous square.It's a bit weird that D can "plan" to move into your square before that move is actually allowed, but it seems to be perfectly fine by the rules.
What you could do is T readies to 5 ft step and go full defense after D moves 10ft. D takes the withdrawal action moves 10 ft back (5ft) behind T. T's ready action goes off and moves to D's old position. Then D finishes his move and moves 5 ft back up to T's old position. Nothing in the withdrawal action says you can't move back toward an enemy it just makes it so the first square you leave you don't provoke.
Or not take the withdrawal action have d take the aoo and he still has a standard action left.
What you could do is T readies to 5 ft step and go full defense after D moves 10ft. D takes the withdrawal action moves 10 ft back (5ft) behind T. T's ready action goes off and moves to D's old position. Then D finishes his move and moves 5 ft back up to T's old position. Nothing in the withdrawal action says you can't move back toward an enemy it just makes it so the first square you leave you don't provoke.
Or not take the withdrawal action have d take the aoo and he still has a standard action left.
So, if I understand you correctly, you propose the following:
D - moves ten feet backT - takes readied action to move five feet forward
D - moves five feet forward
That would work, but that would be two move actions by D, not just one. The rules are a bit confusing on this, but I'm fairly certain that you simply can't use a readied action to interrupt another creature's action. You interrupt their turn, but not their action. If D only took one move which triggered T's readied action, then T's readied action would execute before D's move.
As an aside, you can't say that a readied action triggers after something. It's always before something. Also, both total defense and readying an action are standard actions, so T couldn't do both in one turn.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Here is the quote of readying an action note that if you interrupt actions they continue their action after if able. T interrupted D's move action. So after T's ready action D continues his move action and has a standard left. I highlighted the important bits.
The action T readies is total defense which is a standard action he takes a 5step during it.
If you can't ready an action to interrupt a characters action then you would never be able to counter spell nor attack a wizard while he is casting to try and force a concentration roll.
What you could do is T readies to 5 ft step and go full defense after D moves 10ft. D takes the withdrawal action moves 10 ft back (5ft) behind T. T's ready action goes off and moves to D's old position. Then D finishes his move and moves 5 ft back up to T's old position. Nothing in the withdrawal action says you can't move back toward an enemy it just makes it so the first square you leave you don't provoke.
Or not take the withdrawal action have d take the aoo and he still has a standard action left.
this doesn't work either because, as has been previously mentioned, the readied action happens before the triggering action. so T would be trying to 5 ft step into a square that D is still in. though it occurs to me that if it were phrased "i ready an action to _____ when D leaves my square (or really any square that isn't the target for the 5 ft step)" then theoretically D is in T's square when the 5 ft step occurs.
no, the point is RAW does not allow this, but we can all agree that any GM enforcing that is being overly pedantic.
edit: see my last post before this one for phrasing to satisfy such a GM.
oh true. my phrasing above still provokes. but it does get the readied PC into the appropriate square and if the other PC withdraws she doesn't provoke, but that's probably a waste.
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Repeat after me...
"I delay until D's turn ends. And as a free action tell D to get out of my way."
no, the point is RAW does not allow this, but we can all agree that any GM enforcing that is being overly pedantic.
edit: see my last post before this one for phrasing to satisfy such a GM.
RAW does allow the swap. Insisting on interpreting the rules in a way that imposes discontinuity when one would not logically exist is in violation of designers stating that the rules are to be interpreted with "common sense."
D readies an action to move before T attacks. T takes a 5' step and attacks. Neither character finishes their turn in an occupied square.
RAW does not allow the swap and i retract my previous argument to be replaced with "that is what delaying and/or the feat are for."
"common sense" is such a useless term because it's relative. what's common to you isn't necessarily common for someone else.
also, according to your argument, the only reason i can't trip someone as they get up from prone is a response that denies "common sense" since i can definitely knock the limbs someone is using to get back up out from under them again.
I realize there are other issues floating around in here, but let me go on and state one point clearly...
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
As for the rest.. I'll let it shake out a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
so to use Jason's phrasing, "the readied action is resolved before the triggering action is completed, meaning that the ally is still in their original square."
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You just ready to 5 foot step into your ally's square when he leaves his square. Then your ally begins a move through your square, then your readied action resolves and the ally chooses to end his move in your old square as a 5 foot step.
your readied action completes before your ally leaves his square... you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
your readied action completes before your ally leaves his square... you can't end your movement in an occupied square.
Maybe I wasn't clear. The trigger is set to after he has left his square.
But if you don't like that option, then it is absolutely possible to swap places if you ready an action and your ally burns a move action.
1)Ready an action for when your ally leaves your square.
2)Ally begins move into your square and then back out again.
3)Ally moves into your square, but hasn't finished move.
4)Ally moves out of your square triggering readied action.
5)Move out of your/ally's square during readied action.
6)Ally prematurely ends move in your old square.
"common sense" is such a useless term because it's relative. what's common to you isn't necessarily common for someone else.Two people in 10 x 5 room can swap spaces, even if they are both wearing Full Plate and carrying longspears. That's common sense. Can they both do it without provoking an AoO? That would require more scrutiny.
The important thing to understand or distinguish between is what the game play is doing OOC and what can happen IC. OOC, the game doesn't handle simultaneous actions very well. But that doesn't mean they can't happen IC.
right; a GM can allow something the rules as written don't allow... but that doesn't change that RAW there is no way to do what you're talking about. a GM can rule that it's fine, but anything that goes back to rule 0 is a thing you can expect table variation on.
But if you don't like that option, then it is absolutely possible to swap places if you ready an action and your ally burns a move action.
1)Ready an action for when your ally leaves your square.
2)Ally begins move into your square and then back out again.
3)Ally moves into your square, but hasn't finished move.
4)Ally moves out of your square triggering readied action.
5)Move out of your/ally's square during readied action.
6)Ally prematurely ends move in your old square.
that is fine but still provokes and i already said this above. the key is that the triggering action is leaving a square that isn't the target for the readied character.
it occurs to me that if it were phrased "i ready an action to _____ when D leaves my square (or really any square that isn't the target for the 5 ft step)" then theoretically D is in T's square when the 5 ft step occurs.
Set the trigger for "when your ally is more than 90% in your space and less than 99% in your space". Since a medium character cannot occupy more than one space at a time, they would logically occupy the spot they are most in. And when the trigger tripped they would be 89% in your space already, meaning that their original space is unoccupied.
Set the trigger for "when your ally is more than 90% in your space and less than 99% in your space". Since a medium character cannot occupy more than one space at a time, they would logically occupy the spot they are most in. And when the trigger tripped they would be 89% in your space already, meaning that their original space is unoccupied.
the rules don't account for being partially in a square. this is rule 0 territory. expect variation.
T was first in the initiative order in the original scenario. changing that is what enabled your proposition to work, so i'm not sure that's really helpful. beyond that the only issue i have is with declaring your intent to 5ft step into an occupied square, but that's probably not RAW.
right. so the original scenario is not possible according to RAW. T must delay and D must predict that he is doing so in order to switch places and ready an action accordingly.
edit: oh right. you can talk out of turn so D doesn't actually have to be psychic, but the original point of this not being possible with just the readied action stands.
So... by the rules:
1) Two PC in a closed room 10x5 can't swap their place. They will be forever in the square they are in the beginning. Right?
2) Disrupt a spellcaster is an exception to the rule? If the action happens BEFORE the trigger...the spellcaster never started to cast a spell so, by the rules, he don't lose the spell (you make a concentration check if you take damage while casting or if you are taking continuous damage)
2) Disrupt a spellcaster is an exception to the rule? If the action happens BEFORE the trigger...the spellcaster never started to cast a spell so, by the rules, he don't lose the spell (you make a concentration check if you take damage while casting or if you are taking continuous damage)
no, it happens in response to that action starting but before it's completed. so if the triggering action is "leaving a square" they technically haven't left it when the readied action happens. they have begun to leave it (or in this case cast the spell), but none of the effects of the triggering action happen until after the resolution of the readied action.
N N 959 keeps ignoring this because it invalidates his "common sense" and "Per RAW and designer affirmed responses" arguments, but...
I realize there are other issues floating around in here, but let me go on and state one point clearly...
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
As for the rest.. I'll let it shake out a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
so to use Jason's phrasing, "the readied action is resolved before the triggering action is completed, meaning that the ally is still in their original square."
interrupting actions happen before the triggering action completes. so no, interrupting a spellcaster isn't an exception. nor is swapping places. in theory the RAW doesn't really specify what you can declare as a triggering action, but whatever that is, its not over yet when you finish your interrupting action. (full stop.)
as i said before, some GMs may take issue with declaring actions that are illegal at the time of declaration because things that the rules don't cover well fall to rule 0 and table variation is to be expected. why N N 959 is insisting that you not expect table variation is beyond me. this is clearly a thing that the rules as written don't allow, but that many GMs might because they recognize the game's failure to simulate many of the things players want to (and characters should be able to) do. that doesn't change the RAW though.
Set the trigger for "when your ally is more than 90% in your space and less than 99% in your space". Since a medium character cannot occupy more than one space at a time, they would logically occupy the spot they are most in. And when the trigger tripped they would be 89% in your space already, meaning that their original space is unoccupied.the rules don't account for being partially in a square. this is rule 0 territory. expect variation.
And yet characters don't teleport from square to square, they "move" from square to square, so there must be some point in their movement where they are still moving and yet no longer occupy their previous square.
You keep trying to change the trigger so that it happens before T leaves his square.
false. i've done no such thing. you keep changing the triggering action. i already admitted that RAW doesn't really specify what the triggering action can be. that's why we got creative before with triggering actions, and i've never objected to you changing what the triggering action is. i've only argued that the originally presented scenario cannot be done because the triggering action there was "when D take a 5 foot step backward" and as you point out
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
which doesn't really support your position on that. it does support the idea that interrupting a spell is an exception, but it's more likely the above should just say "completes" after "it" which would make it consistent.
why N N 959 is insisting that you not expect table variation is beyond me.Never said that. Misquoting or blatant lying about what other people state is a violation of the forum rules. What I said is that this is not Rule 0 / House Ruling. A GM adjudicating this is 100% within/required by RAW. You're probably reading that statement as my saying how the GM has to adjudicate it, I'm not.
ah... my apologies then. it did seem as though you were claiming that the GM must rule your way according to RAW.
this is clearly a thing that the rules as written don't allow,False. There is nothing in the rules that says this is not allowed. The rules don't explicitly cover it, so a GM has to adjudicate it. I've already stated that.
but the rules do cover it. the readied action happens before the triggering action so if you ready an action to move when _____ moves, they aren't gone yet. that was the original proposition. why you keep arguing about not the original post, is what is confusing me. i've never claimed there isn't a way to phrase this to appease an overly pedantic GM. only that RAW, you have to get creative with your phrasing because readying an action to step into a square when someone leaves it isn't possible since according to what you quoted above the triggering action hasn't even started yet.
And yet characters don't teleport from square to square, they "move" from square to square, so there must be some point in their movement where they are still moving and yet no longer occupy their previous square.Set the trigger for "when your ally is more than 90% in your space and less than 99% in your space". Since a medium character cannot occupy more than one space at a time, they would logically occupy the spot they are most in. And when the trigger tripped they would be 89% in your space already, meaning that their original space is unoccupied.the rules don't account for being partially in a square. this is rule 0 territory. expect variation.
yes, but we're talking about the rules of the game, not how we can ignore those to simulate reality...