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Since my last inquiry in building a Sandman was shot down by the consensus that it's a lackluster archetype, I've since acquired access to Avarakan Arbiter archetype, and possibly partnering it up with the Demagogue archetype. Teamwork Feats and Rage all around!
So the question again is- is it worthwhile to pursue this build; or are Teamwork Feats a complete waste of time?
I am in fact looking to build decent characters out of lackluster archetypes. The Toxitician Mesmerist archetype looks interesting, since i played it in a special event recently.
You're spending your performance to have the inquisitor ability to use teamwork without others having it. This just sounds awful, no inspire courage, spending a standard action, just to pretend to be an inquisitor for this one thing. Yeah, there's a reason I got a PFS boon for this and decided I'd not be using it.
Maybe consider looking into the masterpiece "battle song of the people's revolt" this gives out teamwork feats. Or look at the new skald archetype, one of the new ones can hand out feats instead of rage powers, but they need to meet the pre-reqs so less good.
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The Averakan Arbiter becomes pretty great if you have a partner to help you trigger those teamwork feats. Mine (Joliet Jake) is teamed up with her brother (Elwood) because they're on a mission from God. Then you can inspire courage and make use of teamwork feats.
Get a fellow player to join in or get a valet familiar!
Hmm
I actually really like the Sandman.
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I actually really like the Sandman.
People in my Sandman (Bard) build thread weren't exactly helpful or supportive in advising the build idea.
I am in fact looking to build decent characters out of lackluster archetypes.
you admit you're using bad archetypes. The forums will tell you that bad archetypes are bad and going to be a struggle to use.
This archetype isn't bad, just that you're getting teamwork feats instead of skill and you'll not use your changed bard performances.
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I am in fact looking to build decent characters out of lackluster archetypes.you admit you're using bad archetypes. The forums will tell you that bad archetypes are bad and going to be a struggle to use.
This archetype isn't bad, just that you're getting teamwork feats instead of skill and you'll not use your changed bard performances.
Hmm already pointed out that it would be better with someone who actually has the teamwork feats as well.
Avekaran Arbiter teamed with an Inquisitor, and maybe a Hunter who invested in some as well.
The biggest thing when going to the forums with something you know is bad is to do these things in the opening post.
1)State clearly that you know this is bad choice.
2)State clearly WHY you're doing this knowing it is a bad choice.
3)And this is probably most important, BE SUPER CLEAR AS TO WHAT ADVICE YOU'RE WANTING.
Like when you come saying, I want to be a core rogue focusing on using unarmed strikes and poison. Give advice.
You've broken all three rules.
IF you come saying, I want to be a core rogue focusing on using unarmed strikes and poison. I know this will suck mightily, but I want to do it because if I do I win $50. Give advice please.
you've still broken number 3. So the advice you're going to get is, don't do it, or don't care how good you are at it. It's viewed as a loss that you can't come back from.
If you follow the rules and say, I want to be a core rogue focusing on using unarmed strikes and poison. I know this will suck mightily, but I want to do it because if I do I win $50. Give advice please on (how to boost my acrobatics)(What a good 1 level dip would be)(On how to cheaply obtain poison).
Well now we have something to focus the advice on so that some advice will actually be useful to you.
This is why number 3 is the most important. If you're not clear on what you're wanting help with you're going to get answers to create an optimized character and, if you're lucky, questioning as to WHY you're choosing the choices you are to try and figure out an answer to 3 to be able to give good advice.
Teamwork feats in combat are great for positioning yourself and flanking. I recommend escape route at 2nd level and outflank at 6th level, giving you the ability to move into combat without provoking when you must, and then giving you a huge attack bonus and the occasional extra attack.
I would be a reach-lite bard, using your inspire courage and inspire teamwork in different situations depending on what is happening. If the main melee is reliably hitting, go in with a longspear and outflank to add damage or try tripping/disarming. If they aren't, use inspire courage to help up the frontline's offense and move to flabk the ol' fashion way. Vital Strike isn't a horrible idea for this sort of build @ 9th level because you can switch performances mid-fight as a move action and your iterative attack won't hit terribly often. With a reach weapon you could also trip for a bit of debuffing with few problems.
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The biggest thing when going to the forums with something you know is bad is to do these things in the opening post.
1)State clearly that you know this is bad choice.
2)State clearly WHY you're doing this knowing it is a bad choice.
3)And this is probably most important, BE SUPER CLEAR AS TO WHAT ADVICE YOU'RE WANTING.
I am only asking to see if i could get some reasonable advice for possibly building this character, and when the few people who respond say it's not worth building, doesn't help the thread.
You bashed this archetype right out the gate, Atarlost followed suit, and Hmm atleast said it's best when working with other whom also invested in teamwork feats.[And I highly doubt I'll ever use the 8th lvl Performance- when are animals ever non-hostile for this ability to even matter?]
Paradozen at least chimed in with some useful advice. Courage when they need it, Teamwork when they don't.
I've not played an Inquisitor, so i am unfamiliar with his "feat sharing" ability. Do most inquisitors try to make use of that ability, or is it usually an afterthought?
If you think about it, this archetype is a arcane/support variant of the inquisitor.
I have this boon, thought I'd try to make use of it. I have so many boons I've not used- including many a Con-Boon.
So let's try again-
I'm considering building an Averaka Arbiter.
Half-Orc: 15/13/13/10/12/14(+2) [just throwing random number out there], Perform (Oratory) most likely.
What tactics should i consider for this build- ranged? reach? unarmed?
What Teamwork feats should i look into, and should i consider taking more teamwork feats outside the "bonus feat"?
Should I consider Masterpieces, and what ones would benefit this archetype?
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I really like the Averakan Arbiter. Here's what it has: inspire courage and bardic knowledge. It trades off Versatile Performance. Versatile Performance is a nifty skill boost that is great at level 2, but becomes harder to take advantage of at levels 6 and ten because you don't get to trade back skill points. The teamwork feat is a great trade for this option.
The toughest thing about this bard is that it has no real self-trigger for its bonus teamwork feats. The only self-trigger is a performance, which limits your ability to inspire if you use it.
As stated, there are two ways to get around this. Play with a buddy, or get a valet familiar. A bloodrager dip would delay spell casting, but give you a valet familiar that you can use to access to all your teamwork feats, extra speed, and rage. If you go urban bloodrager you can use your skills and bardic performance while raging.
Which perform you choose for your Averakan Arbiter makes little difference. Without versatile performance, I'd go for one that might be used in any bardic masterpieces that interest you.
For masterpieces, I would look at Triple Time, or Battlefield of the People's Revolt.
For teamwork feats, I went with Amplified Rage, but I have a raging half-orc buddy who also has that feat. Escape Route is solid.
Teamwork feats often work best with melee. I like reach type builds, but what sort of combat do you enjoy? What would you like to try out? What is your vision for your bard?
Hmm
Having played inquisitors many times, I can say confidently that A)Teamwork Feats w/solo tactics are outstanding and B)Solo tactics is only half of the equation for inquisitor. Inquisitor can take general ones like precise strike and outflank, then swap one out for a specific task like Lookout when you are sharing a watch, Stealth Synergy when you are in a sneaky party, Escape Route in tight corners, Shield Wall when you really need an AC buff, etc. Arbiter should avoid any excessively situational teamwork feats and unfortunately cannot lean on them in a pinch.
For the arbiter, I recommend not taking any team feats beyond the bonus ones unless you have a buddy triggering them with you. As I said earlier, Escape Route is great. You also might want to buy a dozen or so cestuses (cesti? cestopodes?) for anyone who doesn't normally threaten. Its a decent way of entering a fight when you have a melee-heavy group and can be a nice way to leave a fight. Outflank is amazing for free AoO's on crits, but your bonus from inspire courage is superior in all ways to the flank buff. It adds damage, scales, and goes to group melee, so remember that if you have a scythe user as your only companion, its not as good as a crit-fishin ninja.
I recommend reach again because it requires far fewer feats and you can set up more attacks for more people. Tripping with a longspear isn't a horrible idea in PFS considering the frequency of humanoids, and with the right buffs/debuffs you can manage without the improved trip feat. If you do want to focus on tripping, then Dirty Fighter+Improved Trip+Greater Trip will net several AoOs every fight, but you will sacrifice some damage on your end. Grease is a go to spell for reach bard at low levels.
This is in a spoiler because you (op) have expressed a wish to have suggestions geared towards bard not "play a new class." I respect this but also figure it can help to have a backup option should you get hooked on theme but want to shy away from the arbiter because it is kinda bad. Feel free to ignore the spoiler.
The biggest thing when going to the forums with something you know is bad is to do these things in the opening post.
1)State clearly that you know this is bad choice.
2)State clearly WHY you're doing this knowing it is a bad choice.
3)And this is probably most important, BE SUPER CLEAR AS TO WHAT ADVICE YOU'RE WANTING.I am only asking to see if i could get some reasonable advice for possibly building this character, and when the few people who respond say it's not worth building, doesn't help the thread.
You bashed this archetype right out the gate, Atarlost followed suit, and Hmm atleast said it's best when working with other whom also invested in teamwork feats.
[And I highly doubt I'll ever use the 8th lvl Performance- when are animals ever non-hostile for this ability to even matter?]
So the question again is- is it worthwhile to pursue this build; or are Teamwork Feats a complete waste of time?
Do you not see how what you thought you asked, aka the first bolded section, is not at all what you actually asked in the second bolded section which is from your OP.
This is why point three is the most important. We gave you the advice you asked for, which wasn't the advice you were wanting.I've not played an Inquisitor, so i am unfamiliar with his "feat sharing" ability. Do most inquisitors try to make use of that ability, or is it usually an afterthought?
If you think about it, this archetype is a arcane/support variant of the inquisitor.
not really. Inquisitors have some awesome swift action buffs and the solo teamwork is always on, not limited to stopping your main class feature. I personally whenever I theorycraft an inquisitor, look to trade out solo tactics and teamwork feats. But they aren't the best unless you have a party that works with it. Outflank is great unless your the only melee guy.
So let's try again-
I'm considering building an Averaka Arbiter.Half-Orc: 15/13/13/10/12/14(+2) [just throwing random number out there], Perform (Oratory) most likely.
What tactics should i consider for this build- ranged? reach? unarmed?
What Teamwork feats should i look into, and should i consider taking more teamwork feats outside the "bonus feat"?
Should I consider Masterpieces, and what ones would benefit this archetype?
So now that you've (hopefully) asked the actual question you want advice for lets see what we can do.
So you're wanting to build an Averaka Arbiter, well you'll probably play out exactly like a normal bard that decides to never use versatile performance.
General build advice, always put your +2 into your highest stat, and unless you're planning on being an offensive spellcaster, tip I recommend against that, you only need a 14 max after racials.
Nagaji, Half-elfs with Kindred-Raised racial ability have nice stats for a bard. Is this limited to only half-orcs?
Teamwork, probably outflank or some skill one if you want to get any use out of your perform option.
Masterpieces currently and probably aren't worth looking at unless you're an archetype that trades away inspire courage. You can't do both, so again, you should be doing inspire courage in combat as it's the best buff.
I recommend reach or ranged. There's very little reason to go non-reach melee. Reach is the quicker and less feat intensive route, so if you'd like to use your feats for something cool or arcane strike go reach. If you're okay having every feat to lv17 (might be slightly exagerated) planned out dedicated to archery then archery is a strong option, keeps you safe and does okay to good damage.
So pick your version, get your attack stat to an 18 after racials are done, and you're set!
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I said it's strictly worse than an unarchetyped bard in the PFS context but playable.
It's about even with an unarchetyped bard. Really, it has a lot in common with the core bard. It still has the two major iconic bardic abilities: inspire courage and bardic knowledge.
It's just not as great for PFS where your team varies. However, get one friend who you regularly play with for this character and I believe that this archetype can far surpass the regular core bard. This bard does not go it alone. Get him a familiar or a friend with teamwork feats, and he becomes awesome.
Hmm
valet familiars gain your teamwork feats, and also can be in position for your solo teamwork feats song.
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I've been thinking about just making the Artbiter as a splash class... reading the class, i get a teamwork feat once every four lvls after 2nd.
it doesn't seem to be very useful as I'd have only have one Teamwork feat to use until 6th.
I was thinking of splashing this archetype with a Constable (Cavalier archetype). Why Constable? 1> No mounts, 2> in addition to my Bard's Inspire Courage, i can use the Badge as a secondary IC, 3> i can actually hand out any teamwork feats i have- granted once a day, but it's better than nothing.