Initiation Modifier

[Daring]

Hi, I posted this question on the Reddit Pathfinder subreddit but I didn't quite get a definitive answer.

So my question comes about from the Umbral Blade class, specifically the Shadow Consumption ability.

"At 4th level, his vital processes become suspended partially, transmuting his blood into thick, shadowy fluid. He uses his initiation modifier in place of his Constitution modifier for hit points and Fortitude saves."

So, let's say I took Martial Training and chose Veiled Moon. It says my Initiator Modifier is the associated skill's modifier, Dexterity in this case. Then let's say I took a level of Stalker later on to qualify for the class's 3rd level maneuver requirement. What would my Initiator Modifier be?

The person that responded had quoted part of the text from Martial Training with their explanation:

""If you ever gain levels in a martial adept class or possess them previously, these maneuvers continue to use their own initiator level and recovery method, independent of your martial adept level."
So Stalker would use their Wisdom modifier, and the veiled moon maneuvers picked up from martial training uses Dexterity.
If you don't have 3rd level veiled moon maneuvers from martial training this defaults to Stalker initiation, Wisdom. If you have 3rd from martial training but not Stalker, Dexterity. If you have 3rd level in both I would believe it would default to Wisdom, but you could probably choose which one it uses when you reach that ability."

I had read the Martial Training feat over and saw that quote, and their interpretation is generally how I read it, but if there's a more accurate ruling I'd like to know, as while the feat does say Initiator Level, Recovery Method, etc., it doesn't mention Initiator Modifier.

Secondly, do you think this feat would be worth picking up if the rules would allow for Dexterity being my Initiator Modifier? I'd essentially be picking it up solely for the Dexterity to HP/Fortitude save and I'm not entirely sure if that's worth a feat. I'm thinking it might be, just looking for a little input.

[Reven Ent]

The heck is an initiator modifier? Do they mean initiative?

I swear, 3rd party stuff is always so jank.

[Daring]

Reven Ent wrote:

The heck is an initiator modifier? Do they mean initiative?

I swear, 3rd party stuff is always so jank.

It's their casting stat. Just like Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric is Intelligence, Charisma, Wisdom, the Stalker, Warlord and Warden use Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence respectively.

What the prestige class is saying is if I had entered as just Stalker, I would use my Wisdom bonus to determine my HP/Level and my Fortitude saving throw.

For the feat that I had mentioned I could qualify for the class with. I could sink three feats to get 3rd level Manuevers, and if I did it that way, my Initiation Modifier would be Dexterity because the feat says to use the associated Skill's modifier, in this case Stealth being Dexterity. My question is that if I have both the feat and the class I'm not sure which modifier I'd use.

[Johnnycat93]

Because you have to select manuevers when you gain the feat and when you get the Stalker level, it works like this:

Maneuvers you use from Martial Training use Dexterity (in this case)

Maneuvers you use from Stalker use Wisdom

In a case where you have both I'd say pick your favorite.

If you want to get Dex to HP/Fort you'll need to sink four feats (Martial Training I-III and Discipline Focus). Personally I'd just play a regular initiator and spend the feats somewhere else (accept Discipline Focus, that's good stuff no matter what). You'll get access earlier too.

Reven Ent wrote:

The heck is an initiator modifier? Do they mean initiative?

I swear, 3rd party stuff is always so jank.

Here's your reply.

[Daring]

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Because you have to select manuevers when you gain the feat and when you get the Stalker level, it works like this:

Maneuvers you use from Martial Training use Dexterity (in this case)

Maneuvers you use from Stalker use Wisdom

In a case where you have both I'd say pick your favorite.

If you want to get Dex to HP/Fort you'll need to sink four feats (Martial Training I-III and Discipline Focus). Personally I'd just play a regular initiator and spend the feats somewhere else (accept Discipline Focus, that's good stuff no matter what). You'll get access earlier too.

Reven Ent wrote:

The heck is an initiator modifier? Do they mean initiative?

I swear, 3rd party stuff is always so jank.

Here's your reply.

Alright, that's kind of discouraging because it seems that I -have- to use Wisdom as my HP if I take the Umbral Blade class at all. Thank you for the help and your reply.

[Dread Knight]

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

[Olaf the Holy]

Daring wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Because you have to select manuevers when you gain the feat and when you get the Stalker level, it works like this:

Maneuvers you use from Martial Training use Dexterity (in this case)

Maneuvers you use from Stalker use Wisdom

In a case where you have both I'd say pick your favorite.

If you want to get Dex to HP/Fort you'll need to sink four feats (Martial Training I-III and Discipline Focus). Personally I'd just play a regular initiator and spend the feats somewhere else (accept Discipline Focus, that's good stuff no matter what). You'll get access earlier too.

Reven Ent wrote:

The heck is an initiator modifier? Do they mean initiative?

I swear, 3rd party stuff is always so jank.

Here's your reply.

Alright, that's kind of discouraging because it seems that I -have- to use Wisdom as my HP if I take the Umbral Blade class at all. Thank you for the help and your reply.

I can't help but wonder, why is that bad? It lets you focus a lot more on Wisdom, which is actually pretty nice for Stalkers in the first place.

As for 'is it worth a feat?' it depends on how much higher your Dexterity is than your wisdom, and in turn, how much higher your wisdom is than your con.

[Daring]

Olaf the Holy wrote:

I can't help but wonder, why is that bad? It lets you focus a lot more on Wisdom, which is actually pretty nice for Stalkers in the first place.

As for 'is it worth a feat?' it depends on how much higher your Dexterity is than your wisdom, and in turn, how much higher your wisdom is than your con.

Oh, just in my case. In general it'd be pretty solid, being a Stalker. I'm intending on playing a Vigilante, I was just taking Manuever stuff for a little more versatility. Vigilante in to Stalker is a lot of Stats that I'd require, mainly due to me being more of a skill monkey. Just wouldn't work out with the stats I'd rolled is all.

[Daring]

Dread Knight wrote:

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

The Wayward Path one looks pretty awesome, could take the Int class and swap something out for Veiled. I took a look at the Expanded Classes and the Harbinger looks more along the lines of what I was going for rather than Stalker, so I appreciate that help there. It's pretty darn edgy but it's real cool.

[GhanjRho]

Daring wrote:

Dread Knight wrote:

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

The Wayward Path one looks pretty awesome, could take the Int class and swap something out for Veiled. I took a look at the Expanded Classes and the Harbinger looks more along the lines of what I was going for rather than Stalker, so I appreciate that help there. It's pretty darn edgy but it's real cool.

You think Harbinger is edgy now, wait until the Edge Lord archetype hits d20pfsrd. And yes, that is a real archetype that DSP put out in April Augmented.

[Daring]

GhanjRho wrote:

Daring wrote:

Dread Knight wrote:

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

The Wayward Path one looks pretty awesome, could take the Int class and swap something out for Veiled. I took a look at the Expanded Classes and the Harbinger looks more along the lines of what I was going for rather than Stalker, so I appreciate that help there. It's pretty darn edgy but it's real cool.

You think Harbinger is edgy now, wait until the Edge Lord archetype hits d20pfsrd. And yes, that is a real archetype that DSP put out in April Augmented.

I love Dreamscarred Press.

[Elricaltovilla]

Daring wrote:

GhanjRho wrote:

Daring wrote:

Dread Knight wrote:

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

The Wayward Path one looks pretty awesome, could take the Int class and swap something out for Veiled. I took a look at the Expanded Classes and the Harbinger looks more along the lines of what I was going for rather than Stalker, so I appreciate that help there. It's pretty darn edgy but it's real cool.

You think Harbinger is edgy now, wait until the Edge Lord archetype hits d20pfsrd. And yes, that is a real archetype that DSP put out in April Augmented.

I love Dreamscarred Press.

Just so you guys know, April Augmented is a free release. Well, technically it's Pay What You Want, but you can totally pay $0. It's on DriveThruRPG, so if you want you can just go pick it up now.

Here's a link to the April Augmented thread

[Daring]

Elricaltovilla wrote:

Daring wrote:

GhanjRho wrote:

Daring wrote:

Dread Knight wrote:

There is always the option of being a member of The Wayward Path, Path of War Expanded Classes and the trait there that allows you to swap one Martial Discipline with any other one.

The Wayward Path one looks pretty awesome, could take the Int class and swap something out for Veiled. I took a look at the Expanded Classes and the Harbinger looks more along the lines of what I was going for rather than Stalker, so I appreciate that help there. It's pretty darn edgy but it's real cool.

You think Harbinger is edgy now, wait until the Edge Lord archetype hits d20pfsrd. And yes, that is a real archetype that DSP put out in April Augmented.

I love Dreamscarred Press.

Just so you guys know, April Augmented is a free release. Well, technically it's Pay What You Want, but you can totally pay $0. It's on DriveThruRPG, so if you want you can just go pick it up now.

Here's a link to the April Augmented thread

Awesome, just purchased it. <3 Thanks for the link and the cool stuff so far.

[KahnyaGnorc]

If you go Vigilante, then your Initiator Stat is Int.

However, when you enter a Martial Disciple PRC with maneuvers from different sources (like Martial Training Feat and Stalker), you choose WHICH source works with your PRC abilities (including the maneuvers you get) when you first enter the class.

This is the same as Caster/Manifester PRCs (except for the specific multiclass PRCs).