Double Crossbow questions


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

So, yeah, got a fighter that's at level 2 with the Double Crossbow training. Still haven't hit anything with the bow, so not an issue yet (focused on bayonets, not crossbows).

2 questions arose while playing.

First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once? Definitely suggests in both the picture (ranged tactics toolbox) and the profile that I could fire 1 bolt at a time, rather both at once (with a hefty -4 on the attack roll as per the description).

Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow? As written, one attack roll is made for both bolts and there is nothing mentioned regarding bolts with different bonuses to attack (like masterwork and a normal bolt). Not to mention, bolts with different magical properties (like a bane bolt and a holy bolt).

I can't seem to find this one covered in the FAQ or Eratta. Rules are found in the Advanced Player's guide, while the photo of the item is found in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:

So, yeah, got a fighter that's at level 2 with the Double Crossbow training. Still haven't hit anything with the bow, so not an issue yet (focused on bayonets, not crossbows).

2 questions arose while playing.

First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once? Definitely suggests in both the picture (ranged tactics toolbox) and the profile that I could fire 1 bolt at a time, rather both at once (with a hefty -4 on the attack roll as per the description).

I guess, but only if you haven't fully loaded the crossbow.

The trigger is connected to both crossbow strings, so you can't normally chose one of them. (I didn't see the picture from Ranged Tactics Toolbox, but other.) And this wouldn't negate the penalty either.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow? As written, one attack roll is made for both bolts and there is nothing mentioned regarding bolts with different bonuses to attack (like masterwork and a normal bolt). Not to mention, bolts with different magical properties (like a bane bolt and a holy bolt).

I can't seem to find this one covered in the FAQ or Eratta. Rules are found in the Advanced Player's guide, while the photo of the item is found in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox.

*This is only my opinion*

Calculate the Attack bonus in your favor.

The Exchange

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once?

Not according to the rules text, no.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow?

Just use the same roll, but apply the modifiers from each bolt to see if that bolt hit - you still only make one attack roll. E.g. you load a normal and a masterwork bolt; you roll a total (before bolt-specific modifiers) to attack of 19 against an opponent with an AC of 20 - the normal bolt bounces off his armour, but the masterwork bolt goes through. For precision damage I'd say you still get it, 'cos which bolt is the 'first' bolt isn't really determined in any way (i.e. dealer's choice).


ProfPotts wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once?

Not according to the rules text, no.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow?
Just use the same roll, but apply the modifiers from each bolt to see if that bolt hit - you still only make one attack roll. E.g. you load a normal and a masterwork bolt; you roll a total (before bolt-specific modifiers) to attack of 19 against an opponent with an AC of 20 - the normal bolt bounces off his armour, but the masterwork bolt goes through. For precision damage I'd say you still get it, 'cos which bolt is the 'first' bolt isn't really determined in any way (i.e. dealer's choice).

I agree this is probably the best way to handle it.

Scarab Sages

Akkurscid wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once?

Not according to the rules text, no.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow?
Just use the same roll, but apply the modifiers from each bolt to see if that bolt hit - you still only make one attack roll. E.g. you load a normal and a masterwork bolt; you roll a total (before bolt-specific modifiers) to attack of 19 against an opponent with an AC of 20 - the normal bolt bounces off his armour, but the masterwork bolt goes through. For precision damage I'd say you still get it, 'cos which bolt is the 'first' bolt isn't really determined in any way (i.e. dealer's choice).

I agree this is probably the best way to handle it.

except that this is contrary to the ranged weapon rules AND the description for this weapon .

Grand Lodge

Honestly, I can see both interpretations as far as how to handle different modifiers to hit per bolt.

But per the descrpiton, RAW I think you would use either the lower bolt's to hit or the higher bolt's. However, as for which one you would use, I'm not sure.

Personally I'd go with the higher bonus simply because its hard enough to hit with the double crossbow anyways.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

So, yeah, got a fighter that's at level 2 with the Double Crossbow training. Still haven't hit anything with the bow, so not an issue yet (focused on bayonets, not crossbows).

2 questions arose while playing.

First, Can I fire 1 bolt, rather than firing 2 at once? Definitely suggests in both the picture (ranged tactics toolbox) and the profile that I could fire 1 bolt at a time, rather both at once (with a hefty -4 on the attack roll as per the description).

You'd get the -4 regardless; that's a function of the weapon, not firing two bolts. The Double Crossbow says "This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger. Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you're proficient with it, or –8 if you're not. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt. Reloading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a move action."

The bit about the -4 states that it is due to the weapon's size and weight, and is a complete sentence separate from the pieces about it firing multiple bolts.

Quote:


Second, how do different bolt attack roll modifiers affect the attack roll of the double crossbow? As written, one attack roll is made for both bolts and there is nothing mentioned regarding bolts with different bonuses to attack (like masterwork and a normal bolt). Not to mention, bolts with different magical properties (like a bane bolt and a holy bolt).

I can't seem to find this one covered in the FAQ or Eratta. Rules are found in the Advanced Player's guide, while the photo of the item is found in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox.

So, the description of the weapon states that there is only a single attack being made, not two separate attacks delivered simultaneously like with a double-barreled firearm. So, you wouldn't determine whether each bolt hits or misses separately. My reading (and this is a complicated chunk of rules shoved and condensed into a small paragraph, so who knows what the original intent was) is that you'd take the highest modifier and use that to determine success or failure for both bolts.

Scarab Sages

Late reply, too long to attempt on a mobile phone...

First, The double crossbow one or two bolts bit. Deal is that weapons, Like the Gauntlet, may use their weapon profile OR follow their description. In the Gauntlet's case, this means you can use the gauntlet to inflict lethal damage with an unarmed strike OR inflict lethal damage with the gauntlet profile. Had a long debate on this one, but that's apparently how they work.

As I see it, this is similar to the Double Crossbow, which has a weapon profile, and further option to fire both bolts at once. And to be fair, the -4 makes no sense if that is every attack, as it being exotic weapon should account for using the weapon normally. Granted, the weapon is barely better than a light crossbow if firing one bolt at a time, so I don't feel this is unbalanced.

The Double Crossbow Pictured in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox very notably has two triggers. This reinforces the belief that the weapon can fire one arrow at a time, if desired. I believe the text regarding one squeeze of the trigger is to indicated that it can fire twice as a single action, rather than following the rules for using two weapons at once.

I'd love to link the picture, but I'm not sure that's allowed on these forums.

Second, The issue here is that the rules for using magical or masterwork ammunition very clearly modify the ranged weapon's profile regarding attack rolls. As written, both bolts should actually stack effects (best modifiers, discarding duplicate abilities) for the attack roll - I don't think this is intended, but that seems to be the way the rules interact.

Logically, the most fair approach for balancing this second one is to require that both bolts be the same ammunition type. Nothing in the profile suggests this, but it would be the easiest way to avoid rules complications.

As written, I could load a normal bolt with a +3 bolt, then I'd make a single attack roll with the +3, then resolve damage per bolt. Granted, one could argue that the -4 on the attack roll balances that, but it still seems more than intended.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Late reply, too long to attempt on a mobile phone...

First, The double crossbow one or two bolts bit. Deal is that weapons, Like the Gauntlet, may use their weapon profile OR follow their description.

This is not a thing. There are no rules that back this statement up. The table gives you a shorthand of the weapon's functions, the description gives you all other pertinent information. The double crossbow has a -4 to attacks because it's a big clunky device, or a -8 to attacks if you're not proficient with it. This penalty applies regardless of whether you fire one or two bolts.

Quote:


In the Gauntlet's case, this means you can use the gauntlet to inflict lethal damage with an unarmed strike OR inflict lethal damage with the gauntlet profile. Had a long debate on this one, but that's apparently how they work.

The gauntlet listed damage is same as that of an unarmed strike for an appropriately sized creature. This only changes when another rules interaction, like a Monk or Brawler's unarmed strike modification, comes into play. This in no way sets a precedent that you use the description or the table. You use both, together.

Quote:


As I see it, this is similar to the Double Crossbow, which has a weapon profile, and further option to fire both bolts at once.

Not how it works at all. The table entry and the description inform each other, they do not stand separately.

Quote:
And to be fair, the -4 makes no sense if that is every attack, as it being exotic weapon should account for using the weapon normally.

Exotic weapons aren't automatically good, they're just exotic. You need exotic weapon proficiency to tie a piece of wet rope around your hand and wrist and use it as a weapon, doesn't mean it was a smart thing to blow a feat on. Not having exotic weapon proficiency means you take a -8 on all attacks.

Quote:
Granted, the weapon is barely better than a light crossbow if firing one bolt at a time, so I don't feel this is unbalanced.

Never claimed it was or it wasn't, just what the rules say. And the rules say you always have a -4 penalty when firing a double crossbow, regardless of number of bolts fired. That penalty is listed in the weapons description in a separate sentence from that about firing two bolts at once, and indeed, it describes the penalty as being a result of the weapon's bulk and encumbrance, not a function of firing two bolts.

Quote:


The Double Crossbow Pictured in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox very notably has two triggers. This reinforces the belief that the weapon can fire one arrow at a time, if desired.

Artists interpret weapons and other rules elements lots of ways, rarely does this have any actual rules relevance. It's also a different art piece than that used in the two core products where the double crossbow appears, the APG and UE.

Quote:
I believe the text regarding one squeeze of the trigger is to indicated that it can fire twice as a single action, rather than following the rules for using two weapons at once.

Two weapon rules at no point factor in. It is a single weapon with a special functionality.

Quote:


I'd love to link the picture, but I'm not sure that's allowed on these forums.

I've seen it, and as noted, not rules relevant.

Quote:


Second, The issue here is that the rules for using magical or masterwork ammunition very clearly modify the ranged weapon's profile regarding attack rolls. As written, both bolts should actually stack effects (best modifiers, discarding duplicate abilities) for the attack roll - I don't think this is intended, but that seems to be the way the rules interact.

You make one attack which, if successful, delivers both bolts. You wouldn't stack modifiers from each piece of ammunition, because the bolts effects are still determined separately. Even if you do assume stacking, you discard all duplicate modifiers, so in effect, you're still just choosing the best roll. If you have a +1 bane bolt targeting it's intended foe and a +4 bolt in the other slot, you have a +3 and a +4 enhancement bonus, so you'd drop the +3 and have a total bonus to hit of +4. They're still two separate bolts, so you're not going to add their abilities together before determining your total to-hit value.

Quote:
Logically, the most fair approach for balancing this second one is to require that both bolts be the same ammunition type. Nothing in the profile suggests this, but it would be the easiest way to avoid rules complications.

As noted above, not necessary. The highest effective enhancement bonus from between the two bolts determines your to-hit value, and if the attack is successful, damage is determined for each bolt as normal.

Quote:
As written, I could load a normal bolt with a +3 bolt, then I'd make a single attack roll with the +3, then resolve damage per bolt.

Yep, that's how it works based on the rules.

Quote:


Granted, one could argue that the -4 on...

The weapon has a constant -4 to all attacks and can never have it's reload speed lowered beyond a move action for both bolts (and that alone takes several feats). The benefit to never getting to make a full attack and taking such a steep penalty? You can load a +3 bolt with a normal bolt and the bonus to hit applies to both bolts. Hopefully the creature doesn't have DR/magic or something else completely negating the impact of that second bolt.

It's a niche weapon best used for Vital Striking snipers with some serious bonuses to hit, and it does exactly what its description says it does, nothing more or less.

Scarab Sages

Ssalarn wrote:
Quote:


In the Gauntlet's case, this means you can use the gauntlet to inflict lethal damage with an unarmed strike OR inflict lethal damage with the gauntlet profile. Had a long debate on this one, but that's apparently how they work.
The gauntlet listed damage is same as that of an unarmed strike for an appropriately sized creature. This only changes when another rules interaction, like a Monk or Brawler's unarmed strike modification, comes into play. This in no way sets a precedent that you use the description or the table. You use both, together.

We had long thread on this one. I don't really want to get into it again, but regarding the Gauntlet, you are flat wrong. It has a listed profile that you may use, OR you can use it's special rules to make an unarmed strike deal lethal damage.

The distinction here, is that a Monk with a +5 Gauntlet can either use the +5 gauntlet as a weapon (with the listed profile), OR, they can use the gaunlet to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike (as per the monk's profile for their unarmed strike). It does not allow you to apply a weapon as an unarmed strike. If you want that +5, you have to use the gauntlet as the weapon that it is.

I agree, it is very confusing.

As for the Double Crossbow. The description doesn't say it can't fire one at a time. What it says is that it can fire twice with one squeeze of the trigger.

And, as pictured, it does have two separate triggers.


Yes, yes, while you can take a very literal approach to the description of the Double Crossbow to argue that you can fire one bolt at a time, you still won't get rid of the -4 penalty.

You are arguing that you can turn left because a sign said "turn right" instead of "turn right, you can't turn left".
The problem with that literal interpretation is that it goes both ways. Since the weapon doesn't say that you have a choice of using the benefit or not, one could argue that you MUST fire two bolts at once, and never anything else.

*****

Double Crossbow wrote:

This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger.(1)

Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.

Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not(2).

Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.

1. Trigger. Singular. This means that the artist of the picture you saw LIED to you. Or that you simply can't present an interpretation as proof. From the description, we KNOW that there is one trigger, not two.

2. Regardless of if you fire one or two bolts at once, this -4 penalty is always present. The drawback sentence doesn't even mention firing one or two bolts.

The Exchange

I tend to assume that, design-wise, the double crossbow was given a -4 to strike 'cos that's the same penalty you'd get as a proficient two-weapon fighter firing a light crossbow in either hand. No relevance to the actual double crossbow rules, of course, but I assume that's why the penalty was stuck there in the first place.

The point of a double crossbow is, as Ssalarn notes, for using with things like the Vital Strike Feat chain, and magic weapon abilities like Frost and the like which impart the enchantment onto the ammo the weapon fires. The Gravity Bow spell is nice too. Reloading action-economy sucks, but since you can still fire it as a standard action it also works well in surprise rounds and for readied attacks. So it's already okay as an exotic weapon, even if not the best in all situations.

If you let the two bolts both hit based on the largest bonus, then be aware that you're potentially opening the door to some loophole abuse: e.g. a single +5 bolt only costs 1,000gp; stick this in with a slaying bolt (usually just a +1 to strike) or something, and you've gotten yourself a pretty worthwhile guided missile system (you essentially cancel out the double crossbow's built-in penalty to hit, hit with the slaying effect, and also hit twice with all those other frost, Vital Strike, etc. effects you're likely to be packing with the thing). I'm not saying that doing so would necessarily be overpowered (after all, it's hardly the best exotic weapon by a long shot) but it's worth being aware of the possibilities before allowing it in a game.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Murdock Mudeater wrote:


We had long thread on this one. I don't really want to get into it again, but regarding the Gauntlet, you are flat wrong. It has a listed profile that you may use, OR you can use it's special rules to make an unarmed strike deal lethal damage.

We're talking past each other here. Suffice that I know how a gauntlet works and it has no bearing on the double crossbow.

Quote:


As for the Double Crossbow. The description doesn't say it can't fire one at a time. What it says is that it can fire twice with one squeeze of the trigger.

I never said you couldn't fire one at a time, just that the -4 applies regardless.

Quote:
And, as pictured, it does have two separate triggers.

On the cover of the Ranged Tactics splatbook, yes. This has no rules bearing whatsoever, as myself and others have noted.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Double Crossbow questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.