Hey all, quick question.
Say a pc or npc has a clone made and preserved (say via Unguent of Timelessness) when they were young.
Time passes, they age and accrue mental bonuses and physical penalties. They then die and are returned to the clone.
What happens with these penalties and bonuses? I can see the physical penalties being removed because the body is young, but would the mental bonuses also be lost?
As far as I am aware, mental bonuses from age come from experiences and the like, so flavor wise I would think they would stay, but it seems kind of powerful. Is there any stipulation in the rules as to what happens?
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You're talking about an activity which would span a far greater reach of time than most campaigns.
You're talking about an activity which would span a far greater reach of time than most campaigns.
Not necessarily, and it doesn't change the question.
You're talking about an activity which would span a far greater reach of time than most campaigns.Not necessarily, and it doesn't change the question.
That's a GM's call. Does the soul contain memories, is the clone essentially stopped at the point where it was made? The description seems made to invite wiggle room towards either interpretation.
That's a GM's call. Does the soul contain memories, is the clone essentially stopped at the point where it was made? The description seems made to invite wiggle room towards either interpretation.You're talking about an activity which would span a far greater reach of time than most campaigns.Not necessarily, and it doesn't change the question.
I get that, and I am the GM, but I want to know if anyone is aware of any further extrapolation on this other than my own opinion. I like to be able to present my players with more than "this is how I think it should be, so that's how its going to be unless you can convince me otherwise" whenever possible.
If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
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In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including its gaining of two permanent negative levels
It keeps all it's age penalties, physical and mental.
It is an arcane raise dead that doesn't require the whole body.
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Even today science is looking into why cells only replicate for so long before they "turn off" in old age.
Not to inject realism into a fantasy setting, a preserved body would still still age unless a greater magic were at play for instance a perpetual time stop requiring artifact level capability.
As GM you can run it any way you want, but why would any mage use wish or lichdom to extend their life in your campaign world?
It's ultimately a GM FIAT call.
Re-reading the description, it's not 100% clear as to which one it is.
That being said, I would probably rule it to receive the Venerable bonuses, since it says you are considered to have the body of the original (at the time it was cast), retaining all memories and personality of the soul, and then treating other aspects as if you were simply raised from death.
This would include your elderly mentality. Your physical ability scores would remain unaffected, because you'll have your original youthful body, but your mind would be the same as if you were alive previously.
If a PC had enough money and knowledge, they could have one of their bodily limbs cut off (preferably not the head, maybe a finger or a hand?), hire a Cleric to cast Regenerate, leaving them not-so-limbless, and then have a hired Wizard cast Clone on the severed body part. The PC would then use any means at their disposal to keep the body from rotting, such as the Unguent of Timelessness, though even that wouldn't be enough, as hitting a Venerable Age would take a long time depending on race, and at the minimum, you're looking at 30 days elapsing. Effects which constantly keep the body from rotting altogether would be the best, though they are scarce and almost nonexistent.
A Wizard could theoretically do all of this himself, as Regenerate is on the Witch spell list, and he could use UMD to cast the spells from a Scroll, though it is significantly more expensive this way.
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I'd rule that even if you somehow kept the body from dying it would normally still age. Maybe with some custom spell research, a few wishes, a special magic item, or some other exception you could preserve a young body or just create a clone younger than your current age, but it isn't a standard effect or easy to achieve.
On the other hand... Reincarnate drops you into a new young adult body by default and specifically transfers over mental abilities while replacing physical.
The body ages to the same age as the original character. The normal life span is the same. If preserving a clone and reverting to it in order to extend a natural lifespan is all that is needed why would any mage seek out lichdom?
Not really. The body is inert. This means all sorts of growing or regeneration or what have you does not occur, because the body does not move or react to any outside stimuli other than what real world physics allows. It's effectively in a stasis, and would rot unless properly preserved through subjects such as this one. It even says so in the description:
A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh which rots if not preserved.
Last I checked, if it's rotting, it's not alive, and if it's not alive, then it's not replicating cells or aging like any other living thing normally would.
Lichdom is certainly a bit easier, and a lot of Mages by that point don't mind sullying their hands for something so valuable to them. It's also the quickest, and Mages are very impatient, very selfish jerkwads who are (usually) only concerned with their own application for absolute power.
Hell, with the release of Ultimate Magic, there are other ways to secure eternal life without becoming a lich (AKA 90% of challenging BBEGs) For example.
Let's also not take into consideration the very first sentence that Reincarnate states:
...you bring back a dead creature in another body...
That's virtually no different from what Clone does, which creates an exact replica of a body at the time of casting, and when the character whose body it came from dies, they are brought back to life in not the same body that they originally had when the died, but a different, identical body, at the time the spell was cast.
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We find bodies preserved in ice after millennia that aren't able to be resuscitated. Mummies are very well preserved but are still affected by the environment.
Living does not prevent rot as Gangrene causes rot while the organism is living.
I only object to the assertion "preserved" means immunity to all effects including aging while the soulless body waits to be used but agree GM fiat wins the day here.
I lean toward the Grey Mage is this discussion, unless you go to the length to protect the body from time itself. If the clone was affected with some kind of version of Temporal Stasis until awoken, then you need to track two numbers for the aging effects: The age of the physical body, the age of the soul. For simplicity, when Reincarnating or body stealing in any way, I use I,W,Ch effects should as "soul" aged, S,D,Co, as "body" aged.
We find bodies preserved in ice after millennia that aren't able to be resuscitated. Mummies are very well preserved but are still affected by the environment.
Living does not prevent rot as Gangrene causes rot while the organism is living.
I only object to the assertion "preserved" means immunity to all effects including aging while the soulless body waits to be used but agree GM fiat wins the day here.
So in my original question I mentioned using Unguent of Timelessness on the clone. Unguent of Timelessness specifically states that whatever this liquid is applied to ages 1 day for each year of real time. In this case I'm using that to counteract the whole aging body thing. Alternatively the body could have gentle repose cast on it repeatedly.
Additionally, in regards to your earlier question regarding lichdom, clone is an 8th level spell. Becoming a lich has a much lower level requirement. My thoughts are that mages pursue lichdom because they don't have the skill to cast 8th level spells. Also being undead provides several bonuses that a clone wouldn't.
I have to agree with Grey Mage- the body goes to the same age as the original character.
@ Balshazar
If you as the GM prefer to keep that original stats as when cast, fine they don't take the penalties to physical scores, but they shouldn't get the benefits of old age either. because your logic hinges on the fact that the clone was cast when they were young.
I don't necessarily agree with that. I've always been under the impression that mental bonuses come from the experience that comes with age, and that physical penalties come from the degradation of the body that comes with age. Leading from that, If you dropped into a younger body and kept your memories I don't see why you would lose your mental bonuses. Can you list anywhere that it says otherwise?
Also, natural life span is not affected- i.e. you have a natural span of 81 years, and your wizard got killed at 79, you only have 2 years to enjoy your nice young body. Based on what you were saying, you infer that soul is what holds memories (thus you should keep the mental benefits), meaning you age doesn't change. In the above example, you are a 79 yr old wizard in a young body, well at 81 you die of natural causes, because the spell, RAW, doesn't allow you to reroll natural life span
Can you quote or source where you're pulling this from. By RAW I don't think any spell calls out re rolling your natural life span. Even Reincarnate doesn't say this, in fact it doesn't say anything about age or lifespan at all (it only says it can bring back a creature that died of old age).
I think most everyone agrees that reincarnate pushes out your natural lifespan. If we take that into account, along with the fact that we're not trying to bring someone back who died of old age with clone, I don't see a huge difference between the two when it comes to what the RAW of either spell has to say about calculating natural lifespan (e.g. nothing really).
As far as I am aware natural lifespan is calculated against the physical age of the body, not the mental age. You don't die of old age because your conciousness fails you (unless by some disease), you die because your body gives out.
unless you go to the length to protect the body from time itself.
That assumption is built into the original question. The body would definitely rot unless you were doing something to preserve it.
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You've got an aged mind inhabiting a young body. Sounds legit to me.
Bump up those mental stats without cutting into the physical ones.
But really, when you're slinging around 8th level spells, do the age penalties matter THAT much anyway?
Plus, as the GM, this gives you a number of fun roleplaying tie ins:
Marut Inevitables, Morrigna Psychopomps, maybe a disgruntled grim reaper, a death coach, heck maybe even Pharasma's herald if it goes on long enough!
It can be as boring as "Well, I get some stat boost" to as exciting as "We have to fight off a literal incarnation of death itself!", or it can be anywhere in between.
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We find bodies preserved in ice after millennia that aren't able to be resuscitated. Mummies are very well preserved but are still affected by the environment.
Living does not prevent rot as Gangrene causes rot while the organism is living.
I only object to the assertion "preserved" means immunity to all effects including aging while the soulless body waits to be used but agree GM fiat wins the day here.
So in my original question I mentioned using Unguent of Timelessness on the clone. Unguent of Timelessness specifically states that whatever this liquid is applied to ages 1 day for each year of real time. In this case I'm using that to counteract the whole aging body thing. Alternatively the body could have gentle repose cast on it repeatedly.
Additionally, in regards to your earlier question regarding lichdom, clone is an 8th level spell. Becoming a lich has a much lower level requirement. My thoughts are that mages pursue lichdom because they don't have the skill to cast 8th level spells. Also being undead provides several bonuses that a clone wouldn't.
Remember that this is a MAGIC clone, not a SCIENCE clone. Apply science only at GM discretion when dealing with magical concepts. Just a big headache.
As for the spell, I don't think the clone is considered a creature until the caster enters the body. As described, it's just inert flesh. As the spell, I don't think the clones would qualify for anything that requires a creature or a corpse, until they've obtained the caster's soul and become a creature. Also, as written, you might retain diseases and such, providing the GM rules them as part of your body, as the spell mentions nothing regarding being cured of ailments inflicting the duplicated body.
Regarding lichdom, totally agree, lichdom is for lesser casters that want a more attainable immortality at lower levels. Bestiary 3 has details on the Demilich, which basically covers the long term side effects of lichdom and why it really isn't a great plan. Still makes for a good villain.
We find bodies preserved in ice after millennia that aren't able to be resuscitated. Mummies are very well preserved but are still affected by the environment.
Living does not prevent rot as Gangrene causes rot while the organism is living.
I only object to the assertion "preserved" means immunity to all effects including aging while the soulless body waits to be used but agree GM fiat wins the day here.
So in my original question I mentioned using Unguent of Timelessness on the clone. Unguent of Timelessness specifically states that whatever this liquid is applied to ages 1 day for each year of real time. In this case I'm using that to counteract the whole aging body thing. Alternatively the body could have gentle repose cast on it repeatedly.
Additionally, in regards to your earlier question regarding lichdom, clone is an 8th level spell. Becoming a lich has a much lower level requirement. My thoughts are that mages pursue lichdom because they don't have the skill to cast 8th level spells. Also being undead provides several bonuses that a clone wouldn't.
Remember that this is a MAGIC clone, not a SCIENCE clone. Apply science only at GM discretion when dealing with magical concepts. Just a big headache.
As for the spell, I don't think the clone is considered a creature until the caster enters the body. As described, it's just inert flesh. As the spell, I don't think the clones would qualify for anything that requires a creature or a corpse, until they've obtained the caster's soul and become a creature. Also, as written, you might retain diseases and such, providing the GM rules them as part of your body, as the spell mentions nothing regarding being cured of ailments inflicting the duplicated body.
Regarding lichdom, totally agree, lichdom is for lesser casters that want a more attainable immortality at lower levels. Bestiary 3 has details on the Demilich, which basically covers the long term side effects of lichdom and why it really...
Good advice.
Regarding whether or not unguent of Timelessness works, the item only says it needs to be applied to matter that was once alive. We just assumed since the clone was "grown" that it would count for that. If that growing didn't count we figured the piece of flesh it was grown from was once alive.
In the same vein, A corpse (the target of gentle repose) is defined as a dead body. Since the clone isn't alive we figured it counted as dead, and it's a body by default, so we figured that spell would work too.